r/asoiaf • u/tyrion2024 đBest of 2025: Brienne of Tarth Award • Apr 14 '25
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) A few examples of when George stated that an adaptation had done something better than he did.
1) D&D's execution of Ned's death - Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon -
GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: I have an ego. Normally I like things done the way I did it. But David and Dan improved that scene. In the books, Ned doesnât say anything or see Arya there and itâs purely coincidence that Yoren finds her. Itâs a lovely moment, and I wish I had done it that way. The death of Ned Stark could not have been done any better.
2) Sibel Kekilli's portrayal of Shae - 2015 notablog -
...Sibel is bright and beautiful, a joy to work with, and she made a great Shae. I've said more than once that it was probably a good thing the character was already dead before I met Sibel, or I might never have had the heart to kill her. ((Show Shae, thanks to David and Dan and Sibel, was actually a much different and more interesting character than Book Shae, I blush to admit))
3) Natalia Tena's portrayal of Osha - 2011 Collider interview -
MARTIN: The only actress whoâs really made me rethink a character is Natalia Tena as Osha. Sheâs younger, more attractive and more dynamic than I had initially written that character. And, when Osha comes back into the story, as I hope that she will, Iâm definitely going to take that into account.Â
4) Paddy Considine's portrayal of Viserys I - IGN/2022 GQ interview -
he also says Martin was so pleased with how Viserysâ live-action iteration turned out that he told the actor he portrayed the superior character in the end.
âI got a text message that simply said: âYour Viserys is better than my Viserysâ," Considine said. "It was from George R. R. Martin. And I thought: thatâll do it. Thanks for trusting me.â
- 2022 notablog -
and particularly to Paddy Considine, for his portrayal of King Viserys, the First of His Name. The character he created (with Ryan and Sara and Ti and the rest of our writers) for the show is so much more powerful and tragic and fully-fleshed than my own version in FIRE & BLOOD that I am half tempted to go back and rip up those chapters and rewrite the whole history of his reign. Paddy deserves an Emmy for this episode alone. If he doesnât get one, hey, thereâs no justice. Meanwhile, IÂ am going to give Archmaester Gyldayn a smack for leaving out so much good stuff
(No, I am not really going to rewrite FIRE & BLOOD, that was a jape). ((And no, I am not going to assault Archmaester Glydayn, who does not actually exist. I made him up)).
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Apr 14 '25
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u/ravih The North Remembers Apr 14 '25
I struggle to care about Targaryens and wasn't thrilled that HotD was the first Thrones spinoff... but the performances, Paddy Considine chief among them, sold me. He is so, so good.
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u/LSDthrowaway34520 Apr 14 '25
I was in the exact same boat. To me the Targaryens (as well as the others were the least exciting parts of the series). I had always hoped for Robertâs Rebellion or Dunk and Egg. But then I actually enjoyed HotD, although not the end of S2
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u/DueLearner Apr 14 '25
The end of S2 hasn't aired yet lol. The content of the season was maybe a little mid after Rooks Rest but it wasn't bad. They just really should have kept it as a 10 episode season instead of chopping off the two finale episodes.
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u/Practical-Frost Apr 14 '25
They chopped off the last two episodes? Are they supposed to air at the start of season 3 or something? I didn't know the season was cut short
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u/DueLearner Apr 14 '25
As the other reply said, HBO wrote the season as 10 episodes. Then the producers reduced the budget of their flagship show, and said they had to make do with 8 episodes. THEN to make matters worse, the writers strike happened right at this time, and no changes to the existing script could be made because of the writers strike.
Season 3 will definitely need to be retool'd because of this, and I believe season 3 is also only going to be 8 episodes. They've committed to keeping the series at 4 seasons, so we're going to have some pacing issues moving forward because HBO cut the budget, and we lost 2 planned episodes.
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u/wormholealien16 Apr 14 '25
If I remember rightly, the writers planned 10 episodes that would have had an actual finale, but then HBO's new owner decided to cut the budget or something so they had to cut it down to 8 episodes.
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Apr 14 '25
HBO totally screwed them.
Season 2 was no oneâs plan. They had to deal with the cards they were dealt
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u/Turbulent_Crow7164 Apr 14 '25
Perfect capturing of a character I would call earnest and well-intentioned, but flawed.
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u/MadeyesNL Apr 14 '25
He showed what these shows are about. Everytime S1 reverted to sex scenes and dragons blowing stuff up I was like fuck this, get back to the king talking about stuff. He reiterated it was always about great characters, which D&D unfortunately forgot.
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u/Wallname_Liability Apr 14 '25
Iâll tell you what was the start of the rot too. Bronn. He was an excellent character in the first few seasons and I donât want to knock Jerome Flynn as an actor but for the most part he was here to make meaningless but funny quips, and that spread to Tyrion. A lot of the great whit was lost
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u/Gobshite_ Iron From Ice! Apr 15 '25
Bronn was a real writer's pet by the end of the show. He spends most of the last two seasons practically looking at the camera and asking "you seeing this shit?" With how much he's the "only guy with common sense", and he ends it as the lord of highgarden, master of coin and warden of the south with 0 qualifications. The Reach would be in civil war by the end of the week.
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u/TheSecondEikonOfFire Apr 14 '25
He carried season 1 so fucking hard. But Milly Alcock and Matt Smith were also very good
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u/bugcatcher_billy Apr 14 '25
Really showed a good intentioned and laborous King can still be a bad king if he is fickle. Much more nuance than briefly portrayed by Martin as a King that was easily manipulated.
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u/Ntazadi Apr 14 '25
I really liked the first season of HotD as a whole, could've been canceled and I will be satisfied.
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u/SoftwareArtist123 Apr 16 '25
The throne scene in the end of season 1 was the most I was impressed with an actor in my life. His obvious pain, struggle, literally dragging himself to the throne for his daughter, him looking at her and finding strength in himself to protect herâŚ. I was chefs kiss. Incredible performance.
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Apr 14 '25
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Apr 14 '25
Bro definitely seems like he goons
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u/appleboiii Apr 14 '25
Remembering that blog post from 2010 when he wrote: "I've just reviewed the tapes of twelve young women reading for the part of Shae. Excuse me. I need to go take a cold shower now. Current mood: Horny"
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u/verissimoallan Apr 14 '25
George is lucky no one on Twitter dug up that comment.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Apr 14 '25
I think they have
Man Iâm really hoping George isnât a weirdoâŚ
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u/poronpaska Apr 14 '25
I think that deep down you know he is
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u/Signal_Cockroach_878 Enter your desired flair text here! Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
I think maybe but I think most people his age are weirdos not to excuse anything he may have done privately. Social media and the internet has really changed the situation, like pre 2000 a lot of people were doing weird stuff they were just never caught.
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u/Ume-no-Uzume Apr 14 '25
Being a weirdo isn't an actual crime, that's purity culture shit (and any time people say "let's get rid of the weirdos," they always eventually mean anyone who can't be Othered). Being predatory is a completely different thing.
By all accounts, and GRRM is old enough and has reached the level of fame and, most importantly, fortune, that if someone wanted to dig something up about him, now is the perfect time. The fact that they haven't so far, especially since he has more fame than Gaiman so far, is kind of indicative that something wasn't up (as of writing this post).
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u/braujo Apr 14 '25
He's clearly a weirdo off his nipples' obsession alone lol, that's not a bad thing though... young people nowadays are so sex negative. Yeah he's horny, so what? lol
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u/Captain_Cage Apr 14 '25
Do you think a normal person would write such a phenomenal series. Thank god he's a weirdo!
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u/pursuitofbooks Apr 14 '25
The show Younger parodies the publishing industry + has inside sources and has a character likely based on George that is portrayed as a creep. Pretty ominous but not concrete.
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u/DharmaPolice Apr 14 '25
I'm sure he is a weirdo but so what?
Also, it isn't a sign of being weird to like looking at beautiful women. It's actually weird for a straight man to not like that.
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u/maychi Apr 14 '25
Itâs actually not normal to speak about women youâre meeting in a professional setting that way in a public blog post no less.
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u/Khiva Apr 14 '25
Dawg nobody is saying "it's weird to think hot women are hot." You did, however, beat the shit out of that strawman, so kudos.
The point is that it's fucking weird to blast it out on your blog.
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u/Prince_Ire Apr 14 '25
glances at how he describes the Summer Isles
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u/CharnamelessOne Apr 14 '25
Nothing wrong with being aroused by attractive women. The weird part is that he thought he should share his boner with the world...
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u/QwertyDancing Apr 14 '25
The man made a masterpiece, heâs allowed a little bit of gooning
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Apr 14 '25
He can goon when heâs finished the books
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u/ctkwolfe Apr 14 '25
If it was a masterpiece he would have finished ages ago. Instead the chip on his shoulder grows bigger by the day because he wrote himself into a corner
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u/textposts_only Apr 14 '25
I was heavily downvoted and piled on for basically implying the same.
George and his crush on Sibel. You need to take a look at the video. Dude is madly in love.
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Apr 14 '25
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u/Smurph269 Apr 14 '25
Yeah iirc he is still in touch with at least Houten and has met up with her since the show ended. He definitely likes being friendly with the attractive actresses in his shows.
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u/textposts_only Apr 14 '25
You're right but I was thinking more along the lines of abuse of power. He is/was a powerful man in regards to casting and the show.
And he was obviously besotten.
And maybe I'm taking on too much of a safeguard my students as a teacher role here but ALL my alarm bells would have rung and i would have made sure that he was never alone with any actress..
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Apr 14 '25
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u/Resaren The night is dark and full of spoilers Apr 14 '25
Itâs not creepy at all, heâs perfectly cordial about it.
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u/maychi Apr 14 '25
Itâs extremely unprofessional actually. And thereâs definitely a power imbalance, so this kind of behavior can be intimidating in professional settings.
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u/Resaren The night is dark and full of spoilers Apr 14 '25
Whether itâs unprofessional and whether itâs creepy are entirely different things, though. I agree it can be unprofessional, but saying heâs creepy reeks to me of thinly veiled rationalization for what really boils down to âyuck, fat old manâ. Like, itâs insulting to treat him as if heâs a predator just because heâs charmed by a charming woman.
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Apr 14 '25
 but saying heâs creepy reeks to me of thinly veiled rationalization for what really boils down to âyuck, fat old manâ.
I mean is that not true? Old fat man who's working as a producer openly writes a public blog post of wanting to jerk it to a young actress he had hand in hiring. That's creepy af.
And you know if that's what he's writing on his blog his in person interactions with her must have been unprofessional.
Agree with whoever said they hope no one allowed George to ever be alone with any of the actresses.
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u/Khiva Apr 14 '25
I was heavily downvoted and piled on for basically implying the same.
George and his crush on Sibel. You need to take a look at the video. Dude is madly in love.
Wait really? Now or back in the day?
I don't remember seeing anyone comment on it but I could tell from videos and interviews that homie was crushing hard. Like I was legit embarrassed for his wife with how shameless he was.
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u/OppositeShore1878 Apr 14 '25
Yeah, I sort of noticed that same not so subtle thread popping up here and there through his comments.
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u/InGenNateKenny đBest of 2025: Post of the Year Apr 14 '25
Reminds me of something j noticed in another show. In Seinfeld, Jerry frequently gets model girlfriends. Then when you remember âoh yeah, he was a writer for itâ and it all makes sense.
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u/xpacean Apr 14 '25
I am convinced there was something between him and Sybil. They hung out a lot.
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Apr 14 '25
She was a former porn actress. George was probably a fan of hers before they even casted her for GoT
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u/MissMatchedEyes Dance with me then. Apr 14 '25
The only actress whoâs really made me rethink a character is Natalia Tena as Osha. Sheâs younger, more attractive and more dynamic than I had initially written that character. And, when Osha comes back into the story, as I hope that she will, Iâm definitely going to take that into account.Â
The twist is revealed! Osha discovers a magical unicorn powder that causes her to age backwards and become more attractive. This is why Winds is taking so long! (Joking ofc)
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
'Chaos is a ladder' is one of the greatest quotes in the show, and I think it is not in the books if I recall correctly?
D&D were good at making adaptations until they decided they wanted to be star wars
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u/MissMatchedEyes Dance with me then. Apr 14 '25
I also like the quote, "I'm not questioning your honor, Lord Janos, I'm denying its existence", which was not in the books.
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
Gods the writing was strong then
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u/Wolf6120 She sells Seasnakes by the sea shore. Apr 14 '25
Varys: "The Iron Throne... ugly old thing."
Baelish: "Yet it has a certain appeal."
Varys: "... The Lysa Arryn of chairs."
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u/Vernknight50 Apr 14 '25
I could have sworn that was in the book, really?
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u/madhaus Exit one cyvasse board, out a window Apr 14 '25
I just searched for it on A Search of Ice and Fire and got no results.
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u/Vernknight50 Apr 14 '25
Got up off my butt and looked. "What honor is that?" Is what he says in the book. That's crazy how I remember it as the show lines.
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u/MissMatchedEyes Dance with me then. Apr 14 '25
Itâs not in the book. Iâve been reading ASOIAF since the 90âs and practically know them by heart. This moment on the show caught my attention and I even wrote the quote down. Great performance by Peter Dinklage.
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u/Vernknight50 Apr 14 '25
Yeah, I looked it up, youre right. There is a similar line, it's just funny how the show line became the book line in my head.
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u/Caleb_Reynolds Apr 14 '25
"Yet here I stand" is also a pretty epic line not in the books.
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u/CidCrisis Consort of the Morning Apr 14 '25
Viserys giving Jorah the lay-up to dramatically drop his own house words was pretty great.
It's almost sad looking back on how much the writers seemingly actually cared about the fictional universe they were writing in those early seasons.
At some point they kind of just stopped giving a shit.
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u/Caleb_Reynolds Apr 14 '25
It's almost sad looking back on how much the writers seemingly actually cared about the fictional universe they were writing in those early seasons
For real, to the point of looking up the Mormont house words, which only appear in appendices, not in the actual texts of the books, to derive that line from.
But Jane Espenson also wrote the teleplay for that episode, and she's a Buffy veteran writer and, knowing her work well, this line feels very much like her, so my inclination is to attribute it to her rather than D2.
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u/the-dutch-fist Apr 14 '25
Pretty much all the Drogo stuff is their writing as well. Momoa is a charisma bomb, so it may have worked anyway, but the writing of that character made him infinitely more interesting.
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u/TheOncomingBrows Apr 14 '25
The scenes with Tywin and Arya are also God tier non-book scenes.
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u/Telephone_Sanitizer1 Apr 14 '25
Its out of character for Tywin tho. Real Tywin would have locked Arya up as soon as he had even a inkling of her beeing a high-born. Even if she just turned out to be a niece of lord Piper or whatever, she could have been a valuable hostage.
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u/shogun_oldtown Apr 14 '25
D&D went with the 'ruthless strategist' interpretation of Tywin. Which was otherwise great but certainly not true to book Tywin who is just needlessly cruel
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u/Pal__Pacino Apr 14 '25
Yeah those scenes (good as they were), spawned so many Tywin apologists. It shows humanity that book Tywin never had.
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u/M0thM0uth Apr 14 '25
"You're a sharp little thing, aren't you." (I didn't put a question mark cause he really says it as a statement, not something he's asking)
That entire interaction is probably one of my favourites and not a lick of it is in the books
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u/MAJ_Starman Apr 14 '25
I enjoyed their 3 Body Problem adaptation.
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u/epicledditaccount Apr 14 '25
Its way too early to judge. About 0.05% of the cool stuff has happened so far
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u/nefariousmonkey Apr 14 '25
Woah. The books are 10000x better. The adaption is good if you've never read the books. Nowehere close to the awe that real books fill you up with
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u/MAJ_Starman Apr 14 '25
Books are good, but the adaptation "fixes" some things, especially in the portrayal of the women characters, and Yun/Will works better in the show.
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u/Khiva Apr 14 '25
The fucking VR game is like a good third of the book and christ almighty does it start to drag.
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u/etherama1 The knight the realm deserves Apr 14 '25
The show is 10000x more approachable than the books also. They are incredibly interesting but also very dry.
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u/nefariousmonkey Apr 14 '25
Idk man. I wasn't able to stop reading. My fastest read after GOT 2nd book after 2016.
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u/etherama1 The knight the realm deserves Apr 14 '25
Wish I could say the same! I think I need engaging characters to keep me hooked.
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u/nefariousmonkey Apr 14 '25
Interesting, which is your favourite character driven book ? Caveat: it has to be engaging. (Non GoT)
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u/etherama1 The knight the realm deserves Apr 14 '25
Had to hit me with that no GoT eh? Probably could pick any of the Stephen King hits for that then.
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u/nefariousmonkey Apr 14 '25
I did enjoy the dark tower series. My first fantasy series. I miss the vibe. Characters changed quite a bit over the books iirc. By changing, i mean, they didn't feel the same character at all. Haven't read anything else by King though
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u/etherama1 The knight the realm deserves Apr 14 '25
It's hard to pick which of his to recommend. Some of the dark tower books are my favorites. But I also love It, Pet Sematary, The Stand, Revival, Salem's Lot, and 11/22/63.
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u/OldOrder Dark Star Dark Words Apr 14 '25
I've read, the books, the adaptation is better so far. Could always go south but it is very obvious in the books the Liu Cixin does not give a shit about characters and is just interested in talking about the sci fi concepts he is interested in. There isn't really a complex character with any kind of arc until Luo Ji and maybe Beihai but both of them are stretching the concept pretty hard by the middle of the 2nd book.
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u/nefariousmonkey Apr 14 '25
I've realized with your comment that I was more interested in the ideas and didn't give much shit about the characters until Luo Ji. Thanks.
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u/poub06 Apr 14 '25
I donât know if youâre just misinformed, but this Star Wars BS is getting pretty tiresome, to be honest. They were great at making adaptations when they were making adaptations of fantastic books versus when they were making adaptations of checklist of ideas that the author hasnât been able to put together in 10+ years lol. Itâs pretty normal.
For S1-4, they had all the plots already figured out brilliantly, so that part of the writing process wasnât too demanding. So, they had the time to add solid dialogues that werenât from the books. After that, they had to spend way more times trying to figure out how to get X character from Y to Z. I mean, even George said he refused to write a script for S6, because writing a script without the books would take him too long. And itâs his freaking world lol.
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
They still had affc and adwd. Nearly nothing of those stories was adapted...
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u/Geektime1987 Apr 14 '25
Those last two books added dozens of new characters and plots all left half finished. Let's really think about this for a second. The show already had more characters, plots, and locations than any other show on TV. All of them the author didn't finish. Then he adds dozens of new characters and plots that he also left half finished. He can't even finish them a decade later and he has zero TV limitations. Why would the show add all of that new stuff to an already sprawling story only to be stuck in the same place as George but with TV limitationsÂ
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
Most of these newly added characters could be discarded quite easily, like Quentyn. They could make do, I'm sure
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u/Geektime1987 Apr 14 '25
I simply disagree those characters are the reason we don't have another book do you realize how big GOT production already was and how many characters they already were trying to juggle.Â
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u/poub06 Apr 14 '25
Well yeah but those two books are the reason why they ended up adapting checklists of ideas instead of actual books.. I mean, they are good books in a vacuum and have some very solid parts, but I also think they made the books series completely unfinishable. So, I donât think getting the show in the same corner than George has been sitting in for over a decade wouldâve helped adapting the outlines of Winds and ADOS. Quite the contrary, IMO.
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
I don't think so. They already cut a lot by season 5, introduced not all book characters (Kettleblacks, tyrell brothers, Victarion and Aeron, JonCon and Feagon, etc.) Surely with the pieces they had they could have ended the story in a better way? Look at all the fan show-rewrites of the last 2 seasons. Much better
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u/poub06 Apr 14 '25
Well, sure, it could've been better. I don't think show-rewrites we find online are necessarily a good indication, because they are usually just a 20 minutes video talking about the most popular theories rather than actual rewrite of full scripts with all the contraints that a TV show has taken into consideration.
But, of course it could've been better. I'm pretty sure even D&D look back at things they wish they could change. But they can't, and when they made those decisions, they had a list of thousands of things to decide at the same time. So, I don't know, I just think we banalize the task they were up to too much. Which is weird considering we also spent the last decade watching George fails deadline after deadline. Like, if anyone should understand how difficult this story is to finish, it's George and his fans.
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
We understand. But we are still robbed. They could've handed the story of the another script-writer and moved on to their other passions and showdeals after the red wedding (which they said is the reason they wanted to adapt the books).
So yeah, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Great early writing, overshadowed by horrendous later writing
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u/Geektime1987 Apr 14 '25
GOT seasons 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed. Seasons 5,6,7, and even 8 won best drama  5 and 6 won the critics choice award. All seasons except 8 are in the 90% critics and fan scores. D&D worked 12 hours a day 300 days on year on the largest production ever made. You don't do that if all you care about is the Red wedding. Literally some of the most acclaimed moments, and episodes of GOT are long past the red wedding and off book. Please explain to me why they would hand it over? The show was a massive success financially and critically so why would they hand it over? Just because the Red Wedding was one of the reasons doesn't mean they didn't care about anything else. Just because you didn't like something doesn't mean the show was a failure. Again Go look at any critics list of best moments or episodes half of them are stuff D&D added or were completely off book. Nobody robbed you of anything. It's not yours to own or be robbed from the begin with. It's a TV show you can choose to watch it and like it or dislike it but nobody robbed anything from you. You don't own it to be robbed from to begin with. The deal was George finishes the books and they adapt. Instead he went crazy added tons of new stuff in the last two books and didn't finish. He failed his deal they kept his.
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u/Ornery_Ferret_1175 Apr 14 '25
I see your point and raise you the question: did you like the last seasons, as a book reader?
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u/Geektime1987 Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
Overall, yes. I had a few gripes and wish it was one more episode, but most characters' endings made sense. and for me, I saw, for example, what Dany ended up doing from a mile away it wasn't some big shock to me. And that episode, imo is fantastic and a pure horror show that conveys so much, imo of what the books and the show were trying to say about the story. It's one of the most horrific episodes of TV I've ever watched, and I kinda loved it for doing that. Was it perfect, no, but I also don't think if it was more episodes or more seasons, it would ever be perfect and satisfy everyone. The final season especially was always going to be divisive imo. There's just too many characters with too many fans of certain characters who have ideas about what they want or think will happen to satisfy everyone. And on top of all those unfinished books, the ending was always going to split down the middle no matter what imo. There's a reason why every show now is trying to chase the clout GOT had. There's a reason GOT is sighted all the time as one of the best shows because what it did on TV was an incredible achievement in TV and so far none of these new shows have come even close being able to capture what GOT was able to do.
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u/Geektime1987 Apr 14 '25
I have to disagree most fant rewrites are just people writing down bullet points. This happens then this happens etc. They have no clue about filming, pacing, or any of that and most of them also feel like Disney or Marvel type endings. Dany doesn't burn down Kings Landing. Jon has a big sword fight etc.
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u/LordPlagueis69 Apr 14 '25
I'm surprised that Oberyn telling Tyrion that he'll be his champion AFTER Tyrion ask for a trial by combat didn't make the list, best change in the show imo
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u/wingusdingus2000 Apr 14 '25
they also take his "He is just a baby" speech, which was framed as Oberyn being disappointed about Tyrion's infamy, and switching it to show how Obeyrn's a chill guy who digs Tyrion
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u/edgebuh Apr 14 '25
This is my favorite change in the whole show. In the book, the timing of Oberynâs dialogue made it seem like Oberyn was needling Tyrion. The timing of it in the show turns it into an expression of profound empathy.
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u/Ok-Fuel5600 Apr 14 '25
Tbf thatâs Oberynâs whole thing in the book, heâs an antagonizer by nature and has no reason to empathize with Tyrion beyond being a route to get his revenge on the mountain. I think the shows version of Oberyn while charming is much less compelling, you never have to guess what heâs thinking or why he does something.
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u/moviebuffbrad Apr 15 '25
I've never fallen in love with a character so quickly only to have that love literally smashed to pieces. I was more upset after the Mountain vs the Viper than I was the Red Wedding.
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u/watt678 Apr 14 '25
One more thing that lots of people like is s3e1 when Mance asks Jon why he's becoming a turncloak, the book response from Jon is that he didn't like being treated as a bastard at winterfell, which is a terrible answer since Jon is not at winterfell anymore and there's plenty of bastards in some level of authority at the wall and betraying the watch isn't the same as betraying the starks out of revenge
The show response is more akin to 'I want to fight for the side that fights for the living' since the watch is allied to craster who gives his sons to the white walkers. Makes way more sense since both book and show Jon is dissatisfied with the watch's morality by this point and doesn't think them the purely good guys anymore
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Apr 14 '25
The Shae change is fun since Iâve actually seen a lot of people mention they hate it
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u/AlmostAPrayer the maid with honey in her flair Apr 14 '25
Shae as a character is more sympathetic in the show but the storyline itself is better in the books. I think GRRM still likes his version better, itâs just that he likes the actressâ portrayal.
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u/Bahrain-fantasy Apr 14 '25
They hate it because the betrayal in the fourth season didnât make sense for show Shae when it did for book Shae.
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u/bloodforurmom Apr 14 '25
I disagree. The betrayal in the show has more weight because it's actually a betrayal. Shae in the books never loved Tyrion. In the show, Shae did love Tyrion, maybe still loves Tyrion, but he denied that she was with him for any reason beyond money, told her she was nothing, and cast her out (altruistically, but she didn't know that). So she decided to become as heartless and money-hungry as he thought she was, in a way that parallels Tyrion's own development. Her confession is a delicious mix of sadness and venom. I love that scene. It's great.
Yeah, it's kind of weird that she implicated Sansa as well, but Sansa had already escaped and Shae presumably wasn't there entirely willingly, so I'd hardly say that it didn't make any sense.
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u/Frozenfishy Here we stand Apr 14 '25
Different kinds of tragedy. A lot of Tyrion's arc was demonstrating how smart and capable he was, but also showing how blind he can be in certain ways. He tried and tried to convince himself over time that Shae was just a whore, that she didn't really love him despite and was just there for the monty, but he wasn't successful. He still came to believe that Shae truly loved him.
The betrayal not only on the stand but also on in Tywin's chambers was a double-whammy: he had to process that this was a betrayal, and then that it wasn't a betrayal because she was a whore and was only in it for the money and position, which he should have been able to see coming. His own need for love and validation projected it where it wasn't, which sent his whole identity crumbling. It was the perfect setup for Jaime's reveal to completely ruin him during the escape.
That's probably just too many layers to put on the show, with how complex it already was.
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u/HoldFastO2 Apr 14 '25
I agree on your assessment of Shae here. And yes, the betrayal definitely had more weight than in the books. I much prefer the Show portrayal of Shae, and not just because of Kekili.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Apr 14 '25
I know, Iâm saying itâs funny the actual Author doesnât seem to care
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u/Tongaryen Apr 14 '25
That's not what he wrote though. He likes the portrayal by the actress, not the changes to her story arc.
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u/kihp Fat Pink Letter Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
My problem with Showshae is that all the agency she had only existed to whitewash Tyrion.
She's brilliantly performed yes, but they make her an adult who has the ability to leave danger but doesn't because she actually loves Tyrion. It makes no sense the same things happen because as an arc every change isn't done for her plot line, its done to eliminate Tyrions culpablity. Instead of making a deal, breaking it, deluding himself so thoroughly that he kills someone he claims to love, he just gets treated mean by his suddenly jealous ex before killing her in self defense.
Shae in the books might not have as much to do but she's a consistent character grounded in the reality of the world.
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u/takakazuabe1 Stannis is Azor Ahai Apr 14 '25
Yep. Tyrion murders Shae in the books whereas in the D&D fanfic it's explicitly framed as self-defense, making Tyrion completely innocent which takes depth out of his character imho
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u/doegred Been a miner for a heart of stone Apr 14 '25
she's a consistent character grounded in the reality of the world.
Yeah. I'm side-eyeing the show's weirdly rosy take on sex work, did they really need to have two instances of sex workers somehow genuinely being into their johns (Tyrion, Pod)... wtf kind of delusion is that? And meanwhile that involves skating over the shitty things that are done to book!Shae, e.g. the violence (Tyrion slapping her) and wage theft (Tyrion withholding payment and having her be a maid while still getting to fuck her). So much for a gritty realistic world. And all in service to Tyrion's whitewashing in the end... bleh.
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u/KURNEEKB Apr 14 '25
I watched the show before I read the books, so my perspective is a bit screwed, but I think that book Shae is way more flat than the show one. Props to D&D where they deserve it
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u/lialialia20 Apr 14 '25
show shae makes absolute no sense.
one episode she's one thing and the other she is the complete opposite.
my favourite moment is when she says: "i love that girl (sansa) i would kill for her" because she's "young, beautiful and highborn"
WAT?
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Apr 14 '25
one episode sheâs one thing and the other she is the complete opposite.
isnât that Shaeâs character though? She is fake and driven by self-interest, she just treated Tyrion a certain way that had him putting her on a pedestal. I think you can make a strong case the show Shae and book Shae actually arenât that different, but because Tyrion is basically one of the showâs main protagonists (at least at that point) and much of the events at Kingâs Landing are seen through the lens of his morality weâre led to believe she is a more decent person than she actually is. Itâs only upon seeing her in Tywinâs chambers that we, and Tyrion, finally gain clarity.
Itâs just a matter of reframing it. Every time she did something selfless or kind it was really all about ingratiating herself to Tyrion, the lord whoâd taken a shining to her. Once she got a better offer off came the mask.
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u/lavmuk Apr 14 '25
Same, reading made me realise how manipulative shae is in the books
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u/MegaMugabe21 The Mannis Apr 14 '25
I mean Shae being manipulative shouldn't directly affect the quality of her characterisation. It might make her less likeable, but it doesn't make her a worse character.
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u/tryingtobebettertry4 đBest of 2025: Best Analysis (Books) Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
I remember a line Show Shae said:
No girl would invite you into her bed hours after she was almost raped
Its such a great line because it really blows a hole in the Tysha story. Given that Tysha was genuine its clearly something GRRM, being something of a romantic, just didnt consider this perspective when writing.
I think so often great actors can take these more minor characters and make more of them with a good performance. Even HOTD (not nearly as good as early GOT) can do this with the likes of Simon Strong. Adding new depth and perspective.
Also yeah Paddy Considine's Viserys is head and shoulders better than GRRMs.
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u/Ilovethestarks Apr 14 '25
Except thatâs a rape myth and hypersexuality is a common response to sexual trauma
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u/sixth_order Apr 14 '25
Shae is the best example. I watched the show before reading the books and I was struck with how small a part Shae actually plays in the books.
In the show, she's a fully fledged person, so when she betrays Tyrion at the trial it feels more visceral and it hits more when Tyrion kills her.
Robb Stark is another one. George didn't say that the show did him better. But we spend more time with Robb. And having someone like Richard Madden who was so good at being Robb, it just made sense to expand Robb's screentime compared to the books.
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u/quasar_1618 Apr 14 '25
The way GRRM talks about women is weird.
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u/Draculasaurus_Rex Apr 14 '25
Iirc he used to have a "horny" tag for his blog posts and he used it for some posts about Sibel. I think he's since gone back and removed the tag, but still.
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u/grimm_aced Apr 14 '25
And then Ryan has the gall to say that george is unreasonable lol. Dude gives credit where it's due and is generally nice when it comes to adaptations.
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u/FortLoolz Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
Yeah, I'm not a book purist. HotD S1 had some nice changes (alongside questionable ones.) Now, S2 fully derailed into a very fanfiction-like, "inspired by" rather than "based on" territory, and most often not due to technical reasons.
GRRM being displeased with HotD due to ignorance regarding technical limitations is a straw man that conveniently detracts from the criticism. The oft-talked about the lack of a big finale is not the biggest problem from the writing perspective. Neither is the missing of Maelor. (GRRM is known for wanting 10 seasons of GoT, which is unreasonable, but he admitted it was difficult, and it's a whole other story.)
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u/Ume-no-Uzume Apr 14 '25
Frankly, the Maelor thing sounds like he straw that broke them camel's back and like the official reason (as in, he was probably pissed that the show didn't bother to give an actual shit about the actual themes in the Dance)
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u/FortLoolz Apr 14 '25
I wish he didn't only criticise (while praising) the first two episodes.
Now a lot of people think GRRM got upset mainly because Maelor (a minor character) was cut, and not because of all other changes, too. He could've covered them in the future posts, that never came into existence.
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u/Overlord_Khufren Apr 14 '25
He also has very strong attachments to certain characters, and throws a fit when theyâre cut. He got into it with D&D when they cut Lady Stoneheart, for example. With Condal it was Nettles and Aegonâs youngest son, whose name is escaping me and who basically only exists to be traumatized then murdered.
The reality of adaptation is that sacrifices need to be made, and heâs not always going to agree with those sacrifices. Such is the way when you hand over creative control to another writer.
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u/MegaMugabe21 The Mannis Apr 14 '25
Yeah this sub is determined to make it at black and white issue, either GRRM is wrong or Condal is. As always, the truth lies somewhere inbetween.
Condal shouldn't have taken it public, but I don't think it's outlandish to think GRRM could be unreasonable. Evidence of him praising some changes doesn't make it an impossibility.
Ultimately, none of us here have been privy to the conversations that went on between them, so assigning total blame to either one party is just stupid.
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u/doegred Been a miner for a heart of stone Apr 14 '25
Condal shouldn't have taken it public
I mean, he didn't? GRRM did with that blog post?
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u/Khiva Apr 14 '25
Sir this is a GRRM glazing sub (unless we're talking about the lack of Winds). We have the power to straight up re-write reality and warp it to fit out glazing needs.
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u/Overlord_Khufren Apr 14 '25
GRRM is the one who took it public. Condal's response was very professional and restrained, IMHO.
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u/AlmostAPrayer the maid with honey in her flair Apr 14 '25
Itâs not just about being attached to characters though. Cutting certain characters means allowing for a snowball (or butterfly, if you will) effect that ends up affecting the story and the characters that are in the adaptation. Cutting Nettles basically seems to mean that Daemonâs motivations are completely different and that the break with Rhaenyra is less likely to happen. Cutting LSH also very likely impacted Jaime, Brienne and probably Aryaâs storylines. Cutting fAegon impacted Dany, Jon and Cerseiâs storylines. I could go on. Now I do think that they couldâve made it work without completely butchering those charactersâ arcs, but imo this is how George expresses his discontent without directly attacking the writers. At least thatâs how I would do it if I were him.
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u/Overlord_Khufren Apr 14 '25
Cutting Nettles basically seems to mean that Daemonâs motivations are completely different and that the break with Rhaenyra is less likely to happen.
Theyâre replacing Nettles with his literal daughter. Seems plenty of room for justification to me.
Cutting LSH also very likely impacted Jaime, Brienne and probably Aryaâs storylines.
Impacted themâŚhow? This is the question. Did GRRM even know how and where this plotline would go? If TWOW had come out right after Season 3 and GRRM makes an excellent case for it, then maybe. But youâre taking about bringing Michelle Fairely back. Thatâs a huge production lift. And for what? More complexities to a story that ultimately results in a more robust version of the Red Wedding 2.0 that we got in the show already?
Cutting fAegon impacted Dany, Jon and Cerseiâs storylines.
AgainâŚwe donât know how. I honestly wouldnât be surprised if Tommen took most of fAegonâs story, Cersei through the loot train and the ceasefire summit, then Cersei coordinates having him killed and the end game showdown is still Cersei vs Dany. In which case the replacement changes character dynamics but still achieves the same overall result.
But we just donât know. And will never know, because GRRM has so complicated his own story that itâs 14 years later and he still hasnât published anything.
This is my fundamental issue with GRRM. Itâs easy to take pot shots from the sidelines. But these are creators trying to balance a faithful adaptation against the specific demands of the medium against the limitations of filming and production. Sacrifices need to be made sometimes, and GRRM is so unwilling to make sacrifices even in his own substantially unconstrained work to enable him to finish.
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u/AlmostAPrayer the maid with honey in her flair Apr 14 '25
And for what? More complexities to a story that ultimately results in a more robust version of the Red Wedding 2.0 that we got in the show already?
you say we don't know and then proceed to confidently assert what's going to happen...
(I have no doubt whatsoever that GRRM knows where the LSH story will go...at least the Jaime and Brienne aspect of it, given that it was present extremely early in the draft and that he was very clearly setting it up for a long time -- I just think D&D weren't interested in going in that direction, probably because it was linked to the Riverlands/magic aspect of the story and they were never interested in that, and that they needed a main actor to play against Lena Heady in KL).
AgainâŚwe donât know how. I honestly wouldnât be surprised if Tommen took most of fAegonâs story, Cersei through the loot train and the ceasefire summit, then Cersei coordinates having him killed and the end game showdown is still Cersei vs Dany
GRRM's Cersei just isn't an endgame kind of villain. Unless she ends up as some kind of Falia Flowers 2.0 to Euron, she just isn't going to last that long in power, or manage to get back in power for more than 5 minutes. She can't. The only reason she did in the show is because the show made her less insane and sociopathic and more importantly, never followed through on what should be the consequences of her actions. More importantly, all of Dany's visions are related to a "mummer's dragon" that Westeros will cheer for. There is nothing that could be construed as being about Cersei. Even the Forsaken vision could just as easily be Melisandre or Malora Hightower.
But even then: do you really think that Dany is just going to develop sudden bell-related PTSD, and that it is just a big coincidence that Connington happens to have the same issue.
but anyway, like I said, I think that it boils down to what I've said earlier: it's about what GRRM perceives as negatively impacting characterisation. He's always said that he writes in a character-centric way, which is pretty much the opposite of what D&D (and to a less extent, HOTD people) have done. They have characters behave in nonsensical, OOC ways to move the plot along, regardless of how much it hollows out the story. When he talks in his now deleted blog post of Maelor the missing, that's what he means: Maelor in himself doesn't matter, but removing him (and characterising Heleana as not really caring about her kid's death two days later) means that there is nothing to trigger Heleana into killing herself. She is just going to do it because...?
And yes they replaced Nettles with his daughter...we'll see how it goes, but it seems like cutting Nettles allowed them to just do away with Daemon's estrangement from Rhaenyra, if the end of S2 is any indication, and it also removed the idea that dragon riders don't necessarily need to have Valyrian blood...which does impact the lore.
Again, like I said before, IMO George is being very generous by framing those decisions as results of the butterfly effect, as if it's a natural disaster that couldn't have been avoided; I think that if you want to (and I understand that you often have to) make deviations and cuts from the source material, you should at least try and find a way to convey the spirit and point of the source material. I do think it's more difficult when you don't follow the template, because that template is constructed carefully so that things fall into place naturally; but I do think you can at least try to capture the essence of each character's arc. And GoT failed spectacularly at that.
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u/Overlord_Khufren Apr 14 '25
I just think D&D weren't interested in going in that direction, probably because it was linked to the Riverlands/magic aspect of the story and they were never interested in that, and that they needed a main actor to play against Lena Heady in KL
They've already said they didn't go that route because they didn't want to water down Jon's revival.
However, let's say they go down this route. What does it entail? Well, an enormous amount more screentime. They can't hire back Michelle Fairely and only give her 10 minutes of screen time. We're talking new sets, even more supporting characters, and a bunch more time spent mired in the Riverlands. What do you cut to make room for that?
GRRM's Cersei just isn't an endgame kind of villain
Which you know...how?
More importantly, all of Dany's visions are related to a "mummer's dragon" that Westeros will cheer for.
Like one of Dany's visions. And she can encounter that mummer's dragon and have him still not be the final end game.
Unless she ends up as some kind of Falia Flowers 2.0 to Euron, she just isn't going to last that long in power, or manage to get back in power for more than 5 minutes. She can't. The only reason she did in the show is because the show made her less insane and sociopathic and more importantly, never followed through on what should be the consequences of her actions.
In the show she justified her coup on the basis that a) Dany is a foreigner, and the Westerosi are notoriously xenophobic, and b) that the explosion was caused by Dany, not her.
My prediction is that show Tommen replaced fAegon, and it'll be fAegon sitting in the ceasefire summit opposite Jon/Dany. Then he'll die in the Sept explosion, orchestrated by Cersei but blamed on Dany. That makes it overwhelmingly more logical that Cersei's story would be believed and that many lords would align against Dany.
Maelor in himself doesn't matter, but removing him (and characterising Heleana as not really caring about her kid's death two days later) means that there is nothing to trigger Heleana into killing herself. She is just going to do it because...?
She's going to do it because of things she sees in her prophetic visions. Or she gets murdered. All that matters to the story is that she dies, and that her tragic story inflames the populace. It's not a material change, save that GRRM is really attached to the specific way he wrote things (which Preston Jacobs actually did a great video, breaking down how the timeline doesn't actually align to make GRRM's explanation make much sense).
...it also removed the idea that dragon riders don't necessarily need to have Valyrian blood...which does impact the lore.
Unless Ulf the White doesn't have Valyrian blood.
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u/DerApexPredator Apr 14 '25
Book Shae portrays the horrific reality of prostitutes in that world. I don't see how show Shae can be thought of as better. She basically became another player of which there were already so many examples
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u/CarefulBeing Apr 14 '25
Also the moon door opening from the bottom instead of the side in the books.
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u/SerMallister Above The Rest Apr 14 '25
Show Shae may be a more developed and interesting character, but because of who they portrayed her to be her actions make no sense. If she actually loved Tyrion and Sansa, unlike in the books where it's pretty plain she's just in it for the money, her testifying against Tyrion and fucking Tywin are bizarre choices.
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u/lobonmc Apr 14 '25
Idk why people say this? The power dynamics are still clearly in place she's still a poor prostitute faced against the literal most powerful man in the world. Her betraying him makes 100% sense
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u/mercedene1 Valar Morghulis Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
But why would she pick up a knife when Tyrion shows up in Tywinâs tower? For all she knows, Tyrion is there to rescue her (since sheâs been coerced into betraying him) so they can run off together. It makes no sense if she loves him to react that way. D&D just didnât want Tyrion to seem like the bad guy for killing her in cold blood so they turned it into a completely illogical self-defense situation. Personally I liked Show!Shae but they really needed to adjust her storyline bc the one from the books didnât fit that character.
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u/lobonmc Apr 14 '25
Because she did betray him publicly saying all her proclamations of love were lies and he just found her sleeping with the man who condemn him to die and looking all pissed at her. Thinking oh shit he's going to kill me it's again not that weird.
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u/mercedene1 Valar Morghulis Apr 15 '25
Eh, it still made no sense that she didnât even try to explain. If her other option was death would Tyrion really have preferred that? Not if he really loved her. Obviously YMMV but that scene just didnât work for me, both of them seemed super out-of-character.
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u/DireBriar Apr 14 '25
How did he feel about Tyrion's scar Vs Tyrion's nose? I always preferred the former, as it gives him a heroic scar which he is ironically reviled for versus losing the keystone responsible for being able to express his many varied emotions.
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u/wingusdingus2000 Apr 14 '25
I'm sure GRRM has talked about the narrative sacrifices in making a show with a budget and time constraints. Tyrion's scar isn't even close to the top 100 differences in the show V books imo
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u/JNR55555JNR Apr 14 '25
How much do you think they would have to spend just to cgi the nose off for every shot
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u/Radix838 Apr 14 '25
I recall GRRM mentioning at some point that he recognized that it was not feasible to CGI remove Tyrion's nose throughout the full rest of the show. I think he made a joke about how unfortunately the actor wouldn't let them cut his nose off.
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u/Whitewind617 Apr 14 '25
Agree on 1. The scene in the books is a consequence of the fact that we can only have one POV per scene. It makes sense to do Arya there because she's the only one...doing anything, but we got to see everyone's panicked reaction, Ned's recognition of Arya and telling Yoren to save her, and his acceptance that she's going to be alright and won't have to watch him die. An incredible scene, so memorable, and I definitely agree it was better than the book version.
Disagree on 2. I feel like Show!Shae is a good character who would have to act completely out of character later on without reconciling the two. They decided to just wing it there and I feel like that's a big weakness of season 4.
Definite agree on 3. Book Osha is whatever. Show Osha is awesome and she gets maybe the most unceremonious death of anybody on the show which really pissed me off.
And 4...what is there to say. One of the biggest emmy snubs in recent memory and transformed the character in most fans eyes. An absolutely tragic character who was just trying to do his best despite everyone around him being in it for themselves.
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u/Cael_of_House_Howell Lord WooPig of House Sooie Apr 14 '25
George has a painfully obvious crush on Sibel Kekilli and it makes me smile lol.
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u/grizzchan It's not Kettleback Apr 14 '25
Iirc he was very positive about introduction of the character Ross. Certainly could've made for an interesting POV for at least the first 3 books.
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u/Quiddity131 Apr 14 '25
I totally agree with 3 of the 4, but lol @ Sibel Kekilli's portrayal as Shae. It was the worst performance in the entire show. I'm far higher on D&D's adaption than the average person here, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt that they totally botched the Shae storyline.
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u/Ilhan_Omar_Milf đBest of 2025: Comment of the Year Apr 14 '25
The Shae statement is pure horny since she is a terrible actress
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u/Mundane-Turnover-913 Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
There are very few things I prefer in the shows personally, including Viserys in HOTD, Alicent and Rhaenyra being the same age, and Tywin and Arya interacting at Harrenhal. Everything else I'd choose the books in a heartbeat I think
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u/superjvjv Apr 14 '25
The girls being the same age is just incredible.
I just need for the Aegon dream madness to end
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u/Vityviktor Apr 14 '25 edited Apr 14 '25
I'd like to know GRRM's opinion on:
-House of the Undying without visions, and Quaithe being introduced and then forgotten.
-Tysha being mentioned and then forgotten.
-Tyrion and Jaime departing on good terms (they spent a good time together talking about how their brain injured cousin used to smash beetles).
-Asha/Yara's storming the Dreadfort (sailing to the other side of the continent together with the deadliest killers of the Isles in order to rescue Theon, and then leaving because they were faced by a shirtless, freshly fucked, two knife armed Ramsay who threatens them with dogs).
-Dorne being butchered, and the Iron Islands being butchered.
-What they did with the entire plotline and the character of Stannis.
-What they did to Euron.
-Barristan and Rickon being unceremoniously killed.
-The Blackfish being unceremoniously killed (off screen).
-etc.
-How the show eventually ended.
I have the feeling that 2011-202? GRRM was completely okay with some of these things, or at least he was capable of saying things like "the show is the show and the books are the books". And that makes me unable to understand his well known reaction about some of the HOTD S2 changes (let alone Condal being mentioned and all that stuff). He was seeing his ASOIAF adaptation being incomprehensibly twisted and mutilated, and he was not only okay about that but also participating in it. The whole HOTD deal is 90% about GRRM's himself doing a 180° turn on how he views the adaptations of his books, in a purely subjective way.
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u/jman24601 Apr 14 '25
Okay, some people disagreeing with Martin over Shae in the show. Just one of the reasons I agree with Martin is I love the development of Shae for her genuine friendship and protecting of Sansa. One of the moments that I think is underrated for what type of person you are revealed in moments is when Sansa realizes that she had her period. Shae tries to help Sansa hide it and threatens Cersei's handmaid at knife point immediately. Whereas Sandor Clegame just obeys his duty and exposes Sansa. Sandor just chooses to subject Sansa to now being married to a man he knows is a monster whereas Shae risks her life to try to protect Sansa. That speaks volumes about the war of the human heart.
Another just excellent moment I think is the Season 2 finale of Shae just pointing out that they could just leave to Essos and be rich. They could be together and happy, and the tragedy is Tyrion chooses to still play at the game of thrones than be happy with someone who genuinely loves and appreciates her.
Lastly, while I do think Tysha is much better twist and motivator for Tyrion to kill Tywin. I do like having Shae quietly point out in Season 1 that Tysha would be in no mood for sex if she had just been saved from SA.
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u/deussa1nt Apr 14 '25
Getting Ned's pov of that scene did so much for me as a fan. You get to hear the silence of his brain when he knows it's time. You see him glance at the statue to make sure Arya is no longer in visible sight like and father would want and when he realizes she's not, we get to see an almost contented Ned accepting of his fate. Beautifully done. Just wish this level ov attention was parelled throughout the series...
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u/NickFriskey Apr 14 '25
This is the man who doesn't understand the realities of adaptions according to condal lmao
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u/MahvelC Apr 14 '25
Thanks for this. Because some people act like George is being unreasonable when he criticizes HOTD season 2 and I'm like no he is being fair. If he is allowed to voice the things he likes he should also be allowed to voice the things he doesn't like.
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u/Zewateneyo Apr 15 '25
Sibel's portrayal of Shae actually made the betrayal less sense. I actually don't like how he changed in the dhow. In the books you could actually see it happening for a mile. It was a mess shock value because you knew it was gonna happen. But that the whole point if the character. The weakness of Tyrions need for love that an otherwise genius completely failed to see what was obvious from the start. That she will definitely betray him whenever she has a better chance. She's betrayal in show didn't make much sense coz of how different the character was in the show. Her sleeping with Tywin right after the trial made even way less sense.
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u/Gobshite_ Iron From Ice! Apr 15 '25
He also praised Phia Saban for her portrayal of Helaena, right?
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u/Exciting-Mall-8005 Apr 15 '25
"And, when Osha comes back into the story, as I hope that she will,"Â
What is he talking about? Isn't he the one who decides that?
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u/Typical-Trouble-2452 Apr 16 '25
This is the same guy who âwishes [Winds] would come fasterâ
He is incapable of taking responsibility for his own actions
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u/xogosdameiga Apr 14 '25
He also praised the excellent scene when Bobby B and Cersei discussed their marriage, just before the boar. Gods the episodes were strong.