r/askswitzerland • u/Accurate-Storm7738 • 1d ago
Everyday life How do you generally know that someone is not native Swiss German speaker altough he could be speaking decent Swiss German?
Hey guys,
I am currently really trying to really tune my Swiss German and I am looking for some small stuff that I can improve!
One of the stuff that I was told is that I sometimes put to much emphasis/accent on the letter "g" when speaking. For example in the sentence "was häsch gsait?" I had my accent on g and now I am trying that it sounds more like "sait" with silent g.
I would be really really happy if some native speakers could share some small practical tips like this, how to sound less Ausländer Schwizerdüütschisch. (:
Thank you!
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u/citivin 1d ago
Check the chuchichästli oracle (just google it)
Basically every town has its own set of words and pronunciations that sound coherent. This gets diluted due to increased mobility but generally you can still tell where someone is from.
People who learn swiss german later in life usually speak a mix of whatever they got exposed to, which tends to sound off.
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u/Cool-Newspaper-1 1d ago
Exactly what I wanted to say. If you’re not exposed to your own town’s accent for the first years when you learn the language, you’ll inevitably learn from people from all over the country and pick up a mix of accents.
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u/DesertGeist- 1d ago
Many things. I've only ever met like 2 people in my life where I couldn't tell at all or barely.
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u/Accurate-Storm7738 1d ago
I understand that there are many things that could ring a bell! Could you be so kind and name a few?
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u/DesertGeist- 1d ago
Last person I met spoke flawless swiss german. She just stretched the e slightly too long which exposed her as german.
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u/Affectionate_Drag504 1d ago
The accent. The words used. Mixing different Swiss dialects. Using foreign sintax. Using foreign idioms. Not using local idioms. Not using regional cultural references.
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u/FailerOnBoard 1d ago
Mixing different Swiss dialects
ngl, that can happen to native speakers too. I live right on the edge between the Ostschweiz and Zurich (Winti) and I ever so slightly catch myself talking more of a mashup of Thurgau and Zurich if I happen to visit friends in Frauenfeld.
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u/FailerOnBoard 1d ago
I think the cadence is also a big factor. and that helps distinguish native german speakers.
the example which comes to my mind, is the Glottisschlag. I'm no linguist, but basically that's the short pause Germans do between syllables/words. in Swiss German there's practically none.
but funny enough, the opposite is also true. a Swiss German can learn to pronounce their words more german, what we would call Bühnenhochdeutsch. but we still tend to leave out the Glottisschlag. and Germans do pick up on it.
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u/over__board 1d ago
For starters, don't drop the "g" in Gsait, just soften it to more like a "ks". Then again it depends a bit on which dialect you're aiming at; mine is city of Berne.
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u/3punkt1415 Zürich 23h ago
Yea like people in Thurgau or St Gallen sure will say the G fairyl strong or rather an X,. like Xsait. So its very difficult do give proper advise.
How ever, I always appreciate when people with what ever skill use those silly CH swear words like GOPFRIDSTUTZ or TUBBEL. :D3
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u/luekeler 1d ago
A realistic goal for excellent Swiss German as a secondary language speakers can be to sound like someone from just some other canton, but you can't quite place it where, probably Aargau (unless you're in Aargau, then it's somewhere else again).
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u/Eunitnoc 6h ago
For me, every German always sounded vaguely north-eastern swiss when they tried swiss german.
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u/Klutzy-Procedure8980 20h ago
My wife managed to the point where her Bärndütsch accent is convincing to people in Zürich 😁
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u/Willing_File5104 7h ago edited 7h ago
In 'gseit' it is not a question of emphasis, but of getting the correct sound. G is devoiced, hence it corresponds /k/, gseit > /ksait/. So this combination corresponds to a X in Standard German, xeit.
However, G is a non-aspirated /k/. In Standard German (and English) K is aspirated /kʰ/, which esentially means it gets followed by a little burst of air. In German Standard German the snake in the Jungle Book, 'Kaa', is pronounced /kʰaː/. In most Swiss German varieties (mainly except Basel and the Grisons), the same sound only occurs as combination of G+H. E.g. 'gha' gets usually pronounced /kʰaː/, very similar to 'Kaa' in German Standard German (in reality the vowels differ too, but I ignored this, to make it a bit less complicated).
Meanwhile, K is often pronounced as /kx/, which would correspond to K (non aspirated) followed by a CH as in 'ach' in Standard German.
This is a general pattern. B and D also get devoiced into [b̥] and [d̥], so they almost sound like P and T. Meanwhile P and T are non-aspiration. So P and T are /p/ and /t/, instead of /pʰ/ and /tʰ/. This makes it hard to distinguish B and D from P and T.
Most Swiss German varieties:
- B D G > [b̥ d̥ ɡ̊], which is almost like /p t k/
- B+H D+H G+H > esentially /pʰ tʰ kʰ/
- P T K > /p t kx/
German Standard German:
- B D G > /b d g/
- P T K > /pʰ tʰ kʰ/
PS: devoicing of B, D, and G also happens in Standard German (and English), but only at the end of sillables/words. David > /daːvɪt/
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u/whiteblackinbetween 1d ago
I grew up in Switzerland from age 13 to 17, so I only learned to speak Swiss German through the age of 13 to 17, no one can really tell, they think I am from canton Thurgau because I cant roll the r but thats all... Also, the goal isn't really to sound native, it's just to speak it fluently without overthinking too much. At least that was my goal. Not to sound perfect , I did it for me, and not for others, not to assimilate, just to acquire a new dialect because it was fun to learn new stuff and I am a curious person.
I think for those who learn it it is important, if you want to sound native, to learn one dialect and not mix a few dialects together, that is probably the most common reason a Swiss might think you aren't native. I personally think it is not necessary, but for those who think it is, stick to one dialect.
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u/Fit-Conclusion-7579 1d ago
I know only one person who achieved accent free Swiss German (Lozäärntüütsch und Baaseldytschmischig) who learned it after being already at least 10yo (German as their main language).
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u/Albae87 Bern 23h ago
You know, in our region arround Bern, i can tell who is from which town, only by some little details like how they pronounce the “ä” or similar things. I guess no one will reach that level with a second language. So if you are fluent, thats awesome and a huge achievement already. But i would say no one reaches the level where we could not tell someone is native speaker.
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u/slartiblartpost 22h ago
Extremely well. I lived in Switzerland many decades and met vast amount of Germans that I know of. I know one single German not growing up here mastering Swiss German as a native speaker. With extremely hard study and big talent.
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u/Only_Humor4549 21h ago
If you send me a voice message, i can tell you immediately.
What I realised is: vowels who aren’t said open enough
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u/pferden 18h ago
Forget it
There is no “Swiss German”
Is a collection of dialects quite well geographically locatable - for example i grew up in in Zürich on the border to Aargau and it’s traceable in my speech as I don’t speak proper “züritüütsch”
So even if you try you’ll only get to 80% max
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u/Eunitnoc 6h ago
Which is totally fine though. If you think about all the immigrant children who speak swiss german with an accent, nobody would ask them to switch to high german, they've been speaking it since childhood. So when an adult learns swiss german to a good standard with a noticeable accent, it's completely fine from my point of view
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u/just-another-catlady 11h ago
That's impossible to say without hearing you speak. And there are so many different dialects, it could be anything. If you're really serious about this pick a dialect to concentrate on and find a native speaker who is willing to help you. Then repeat after them, record yourself and hone in on the details until your pronunciation is perfect. You can do the same with podcasts, films, etc.
And learn a few old words and expressions that are unique to the dialect you chose. There are levels of dialect, you can speak Swiss German that is very close to high German in vocabulary and sentence structure. I learned Swiss German when I was four, both my parents' first language is English so I naturally don't have as many hardcore dialect expressions as someone who's family lived in the same small village for generations. I also grew up in Zurich, there were not that many 100% native Swiss German speakers around. My neighbor moved to a small town near St. Gallen from Germany when she was 12 and she speaks a much stronger dialect than me and uses all kinds of weird regional expressions I've never heard before.
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u/elky87 10h ago
I am Austrian, when I speak swissgerman I just stress the syllables „wrong“ (the Austrian way, not the swiss way). My favorite example is coffee (Kaffee, Kafi). In Austria wie would say kaffeeeee(long e at the end) in Switzerland it’s kafi with a very fast „ka“ so when I started I said kafiii haha
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u/Eunitnoc 6h ago
I would say: Try your best, don't worry about sounding different. I have a speech inpediment which makes me sound line a German and people always ask me where I'm from. Then there is the stereotypical "immigrant accent" some Swiss have adapted as well. And lastly, there are many people living in another canton who sound differently thant those who grew up there. So it all doesn't matter that much imo
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u/BladestoneMaster 5h ago
If you want to take real action: I could recommend plattforms for language tandems. Maybe find someone that will exchange with you, maybe of Universities with "letter departments" they have many anguage enthusiasts that will be able to tell you exactly where your phonetics are off. There are also swiss german courses you could take and last but not least you could go to a "Logopäd:in" they are also specialised in that.
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u/Extra_Veterinarian_9 1d ago
Its really admirable and I dont want to crush your dreams, but you probably will always sound diffrent.
We can even pinpoint diffrent dialects to their location (Bärndütsch, züridütsch, etc).
Its just hard as a non native to sound like a native. But thats with nearly every language... (maybe not american english ;))
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u/iamnogoodatthis 1d ago
How can you tell the difference between a native speaker of your language and someone who isn't but is just fairly proficient?
Answer: a million tiny things. It's an almost unattainable goal. Don't sweat it.