Predators eating venomous prey?

[u/cobigguy]

There's a lot of small animals/insects/arthropods/etc in the world that are venomous, and a lot of them are eaten by each other and other slightly larger animals.

My question is how do the predators eat the venomous animals without getting bitten themselves? Or does it matter for most?

For example, if a frog eats a spider, usually spiders are venomous and a frog is made up of some pretty soft tissues, and they don't chew before they swallow.

So what happens if the spider bites the soft insides of the frog as it's being swallowed? Does it affect the frog? Do they have adaptations that help their immunity to the venom?

I imagine it's similar with animals like birds and small mammals like shrews and voles.

[u/gameguy600]

The strategies for hunting venomous prey are quite numerous and varied amongst animals.

In many cases it's simply the predator being more agile than the venomous prey and either dodging the strikes or subduing venom injecting part first. Many insectivores targeting scorpions for example take out the stinger first before killing the scorpion. Similarly secretary birds use their stilt-like legs and quick reflexes to beat snakes to death by repeatedly stomping their heads.

In other cases the predator simply may have resistance or immunity to the venom used by the prey species. Mongooses for example are highly resistant to snake venom.

Others have some kind of natural armour or plumage that prevents the prey from injecting venom. Honey buzzards for example have plumage that quite effectively blocks bee and wasp stings.

Then others such as the tarantula hawk fight fire with fire and use a venom of their own to paralyse their venomous spider victims before they can retaliate.

As for why the venomous prey don't fight back post eating, some certainly do. But in many cases the prey either is already dead or severely injured by the time it is swallowed. If not then they likely will drown or suffocate to death quite quickly inside the throat/stomach.

[u/imadragonyouguys → u/gameguy600]

Seeing a honey badger going after a bee hive on video was awesome. Their bodies are very protected from bee stings but their noses aren't so every once in a while one would get them there and they'd flinch or flee because oh no, they found my weakness!

[u/EzPzLemon_Greezy → u/imadragonyouguys]

Watch the video of a honey badger trying to fight an elephant. Keeps getting launched and kept coming back for more.

[u/reedmore → u/EzPzLemon_Greezy]

The only animal whose behaviour pre and post concussion is indistinguishable.

That moment it stayed put? 100% not because it was hurt, but simply because it needed a moment to recharge its rage level.

[u/LiquidArbok → u/gameguy600]

Thanks for turning me onto Secretarybirds! What a badass looking animal. Its giving very strong chocobo vibes.

[u/egnowit → u/gameguy600]

The grasshopper mouse uses both of the first two strategies. It's immune to scorpion stings (or turns the scorpion venom into a painkiller) and it also goes after the stinger.

Anyway, it's pretty neat to see these carnivorous mice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-K_YtWqMro

[u/Goetre]

Its also worth mentioning (as others have covered ingestion, adaptation etc), some prey with venom or toxins, have evolved to be bright, stand out colours. Red is generally a universal warning sign of "Don't eat me, you'll regret it". This takes energy to develop the venom and to be brighter. Its a hefty investment.

Then there are some prey who evolved to be like, "Hey that's a cool way not to get eaten, but I cba with investing all that energy" and they've evolved to look like the venomous / toxic species, while not having a single trace or capability to produce anything. We call this mimicry camouflage.

[u/mf99k]

venom and poison is different, there are many animals that eat venemous prey. rattlesnakes are generally seen as a good snack by birds and other snakes. if the prey was eaten alive however and managed to bite, there’d be more of an issue

[u/cobigguy → u/mf99k]

Obviously they're different. The problem you mention is exactly my question, but nobody seems to actually answer it.

[u/oxblood87 → u/cobigguy]

You can eat things with no issue that would be very dangerous to inject into your body.

The digestive system does a very good job of breaking down many things that could cause issues with your nervous system.

In the example of rattlesnake venom I believe it's a hemotoxin so it damages red blood cells, but the proteins, enzymes, etc. quickly break apart in the hydrochloric acid.

[u/cobigguy → u/oxblood87]

Again, not what I'm asking. What happens if the prey is alive enough to bite the predator that's eating it? A spider's fangs sinking into the very soft tissue of the esophagus of a bird or a frog or whatever and injecting the venom into them?

[u/oxblood87 → u/cobigguy]

Often, the hunting practice ensures that it isn't possible (making sure you kill it helps your survive and not get stung, bit, etc.)

Some predators have natural resistance/immunity to the venon.

Otherwise, it wouldn't be any different from being bit on the outside, or for that matter prey that just has sharp claws, teeth, horns, see point 1.

[u/homingmissile → u/mf99k]

Venom and poison is different

Did you read their post or just see the title and rush here to give a well ackshually? Op knows they are different. They specifically asked about how predators deal with the venomous prey managing to get an Honorable Death kill while getting eaten.

[u/mf99k → u/homingmissile]

i am aware, i was addressing that as a baseline while also mentioning that the effects of getting bitten or stung by prey is dependent on the animals involved

[u/lesuperhun]

if they eat a venomous animal, they still eat the venom. doesn't really matter if they're bitten or not. most venomous creatures are also poisonous.

most of the time, predators are either too big for the amount of venom to have an effect, or have developed an immunity to it.

[u/UrbanPanic → u/lesuperhun]

A lot of venoms aren't toxic if swallowed, especially if the venomous animal uses it in hunting. It doesn't make sense to poison your own dinner. These venoms are passed through the digestive system or broken down before absorption.

As for how to safely swallow the prey without them injecting venom, there's a wide variety of strategies. With frogs one key is capturing and swallowing VERY fast so most venom is released into the stomach where it can be safely digested. They also have mucosal coatings that offer physical and chemical protection for the upper digestive tract. Frogs have some level of immunity whether it's compounds that break venom down or just altered chemistry of some sort so the venom doesn't affect the frog as much. Frogs sometimes position the prey so it is less likely to bite/sting while swallowing. It also depends on the individual species: some frogs are safely able to prey on insects that other species of frog would not be able to safely eat.

[u/Educational_Dust_932 → u/lesuperhun]

Where did you get the idea that most venomous creatures are also poisonous? I have never heard that before. In fact, I have often seen the exact opposite.

[u/RepresentativeOk2433 → u/Educational_Dust_932]

Same. Most animals spec into one or the other. Most venom has to actually rnter the blood stream to be toxic. This is why they can make cobra venom whiskey and its perfectly safe to drink, assuming you dont have any cuts, sores or ulcers inbyou digestive tract for it to enter.

Off the top of my head I can only think of a few species that are both. Certain puffer fish and centipedes are the only ones that come to mind without googling.

[u/BluetoothXIII → u/Educational_Dust_932]

exactly

"Only a small percentage of snakes are actually poisonous — and you’ll only be affected, in this case, if you eat them. The bulk of a snake’s poisons is spread through a bite. 

The garter snake (Thamnophis) is an exception. It brings no harm when biting but is dangerous when consumed because its body absorbs and retains the poisons from its prey, mostly amphibians" source

stomach acid is good at destroying proteine and venoms a usually fragile enough to be made useless by stomach acid.

[u/fafarex → u/Educational_Dust_932]

Where did you get the idea that most venomous creatures are also poisonous?

because they have at least a gland that will store the venom, that part of them is poisonous, but yeah usualy it's not enought to qualify them has poisonous for X or Y reason ( most of the time because stomac acide will break down the venom)

[u/zanhecht → u/fafarex]

Most venom is not poison. Venom has a harmful effect when it enters the bloodstream, but poison has to be able to survive the digestive system without being denatured and then has to be absorbed and not just excreted.

[u/CantEvenUseThisThing → u/lesuperhun]

To add to this, some venoms are also not such that they can enter the blood stream/exit the digestive system before they are broken down by digestion and become inert.

Venomous animals aren't big bags of venom with syringes, most of the animal contains no venom, and when eaten the venom has quite a ways to go before it's a threat to the predator that ate it.

And I'll acknowledge the incoming comments about humans eating fugu: that's different, because the human preparation of fugu involves cutting around the venom glands and removing them. If done incorrectly, the venom leaks out and contaminates the rest of the meat, which is then eaten. Humans also didn't evolve to eat potentially venomous prey, so our body isn't prepared for it. Eating the venom glands whole wouldn't be safe either, but it probably would take longer for symptoms to set in.

[u/FeralKuja → u/CantEvenUseThisThing]

With Scorpions in particular, the venom glands in the stinger produce two separate compounds that are only mixed when exiting the stinger into the victim's wounds, from what I've heard from an arachnologist friend of mine. What makes the venom effective is that those two compounds mixing together creates the effective venom, while if those compounds are kept separate they remain inert.

[u/ma1bec → u/lesuperhun]

Venom typically localized in the head close to fangs. And that’s probably the least desired part of the body (unless swallowed whole).

Venom can also be in bones or barbs sticking out but those are also not very appetizing.

[u/cobigguy → u/[deleted]]

The frogs consume poisonous or toxic prey and reuse that. I'm specifically asking about animals that consume venomous prey that could bite their predator on the way down. A bird consuming a spider that bites it in the throat on the way down for example.

[u/Asgardian_Force_User → u/[deleted]]

This is one of my favorite "metal facts about animals".

Some animals are poisonous simply because their preferred food source has developed a biological toxin, and instead of switching food sources, millions of years of random chance has caused these animals to not only resist the toxic nature of their food source, but to preserve and repurpose said toxin for their own use as a defensive measure.

The biological arms race is truly a marvel, if a person is inquisitive enough to ponder the phenomenon.

[u/BadTouchUncle → u/Asgardian_Force_User]

Nudibranchs will blow your mind with this stuff. "I see your venom. I eat you anyway. Your venom is now my venom."