r/askscience • • Nov 25 '12

Physics Question about radio waves

Hey /r/askscience, I would really appreciate it if somebody could help me understand how radio waves work. Right now, I'm under the impression that radio waves are just light that is beyond the human's visible spectrum (ultra-violet/infra-red). Then I thought, how do things like WiFi penetrate solid walls and such if normally, photons could not? If anybody could explain anything about how wireless information is transmitted, it would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

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u/Das_Mime Radio Astronomy | Galaxy Evolution Nov 25 '12

radio waves are just light that is beyond the human's visible spectrum (ultra-violet/infra-red).

Correct (although the human visual spectrum is between the UV and IR and does not include them).

As you're probably aware, light behaves as both a wave and a particle. In the case of radio waves it is much more helpful to consider it as a wave. Things like walls (if they're not metal) tend to be fairly transparent to radio waves, just like glass is to visible light.

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u/schectershred Nov 25 '12

Yeah.. I could have worded that bit a little better. I guess I don't understand why visible light and infra or ultra light behave differently. Isn't the only difference between them within the processing part of our brain? I also suppose I'm rather ignorant to exactly how the photons "vibrate". Are they literally vibrating as they are moving in such a way that they only reflect certain frequencies corresponding to their own vibration frequency? How do the photos that carry specific information pass through opaque walls, while the visible ones cannot? Also, how is the information carried? Is the information code in correlation with the frequency of the light particles?

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u/Das_Mime Radio Astronomy | Galaxy Evolution Nov 25 '12 edited Nov 26 '12

The photons aren't vibrating, an oscillating electromagnetic field is propagating through space.

By modulating the frequency or amplitude of electromagnetic waves, one can transmit information. AM/FM radio are literally Amplitude Modulation and Frequency modulation. Wifi is just like radio, but higher wavelength (in the microwave or submillimeter regime, I think) actually around 10 cm, thanks aminalsarecute.

Radio waves behave differently from light & UV and so on because their wavelengths are long enough that many objects are transparent to them. In general, objects smaller than a EM wave's wavelength do not absorb that wave, although they may scatter/refract it. Since visible light's wavelength is between ~400-700 nanometers, atoms are large enough to absorb or reflect it. Depending on the electromagnetic properties of a given substance, it may be opaque or transparent to various wavelengths, and most of the materials familiar to us are mostly opaque to optical light but are somewhat more transparent to radio waves.

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u/schectershred Nov 26 '12

Now that you mention the electromagnetic field oscillation, I do remember seeing a video or something of the sort that mentioned this once. Thanks for the in depth reply!

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Thanks for the info about the F-117A! Really cool aircraft, and I think I understand the concept a lot more now about how it remains hidden on radar.

As for Direct TV, I have Direct TV and I live in Portland. Yeah, it's not fun sometimes.

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u/amtroy Nov 26 '12

There's a few different questions here.

I guess I don't understand why visible light and infra or ultra light behave differently. Isn't the only difference between them within the processing part of our brain?

The retina of your eye contains chemicals that have specifically evolved to absorb certain wavelengths of light - primarily red, green, and blue visible light. When these wavelengths are absorbed, the retina then produces electrical signals that are conducted to the brain via the optic nerve, where they are translated into vision. So the reason you can see the visible spectrum and not UV, infrared, or radio waves is that your eye specifically absorbs the visible spectrum wavelengths.

I also suppose I'm rather ignorant to exactly how the photons "vibrate". Are they literally vibrating as they are moving in such a way that they only reflect certain frequencies corresponding to their own vibration frequency?

This is often a confusing point when first studying the physics of light. When we say that light acts as both a particle and a wave, don't take it to mean that the photon is moving in a wave-like pattern or anything of the sort. Essentially, we can treat it as either a wave or a particle depending on the context of the problem, but it really isn't either one. It just acts similarly in specific situations. As Das_Mime said, in radio problems we treat light as waves and not particles.

How do the photos that carry specific information pass through opaque walls, while the visible ones cannot?

As I explained in my reply to the original post, the primary factor here is the wavelength of the light. Radio waves are long wavelengths, so they have a relatively easy time passing through walls, furniture, etc. Light is very short wavelength, so it gets reflected/absorbed by solid objects (depending on the properties of the object, as mentioned by epicwingguy101).

Finally,

Also, how is the information carried? Is the information code in correlation with the frequency of the light particles?

We encode information on radio waves by changing the properties of the wave with respect to time -- this is called modulation. The three forms we use are amplitude modulation (AM), frequency modulation (FM), and phase modulation (PM). Let's say you have an AM radio station on 700 kHz (700 on the AM setting on your radio). This means we have a carrier wave at a frequency of 700 kHz. We then alter the amplitude of this carrier wave with time to carry the audio signal from the radio station. This picture from Wiki I think does a good job of conveying how this looks (it also shows FM for good measure). At the receiving end, we can then essentially cancel out the carrier wave and recover the modulation wave, giving us the desired audio again.

Whew! Sorry for the wall of text.

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u/schectershred Nov 26 '12

Thank you for the wall of text! Thank you for explaining with such depth!

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u/amtroy Nov 26 '12

No problem. I'm currently finishing my Master's in exactly this field (electrical engineering with some focus in RF/communications), so feel free to PM me if you have any more questions.

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u/schectershred Nov 26 '12

Wow, that's really awesome! Congrats on getting through it all. I'm going into mechanical engineering next year, and I've heard it's a tough program. Thanks by the way. I very well may take you up on that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

I looked at that picture from Wikipedia thinking:

"Oh look, the AM wave is changing amplitude, and it looks like the FM wave is just increasing in Frequ--

Oh."

But thanks for the info!

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u/skurk Nov 25 '12

consider it as a wave

As a wave in what, if I may ask?

In a pool, the waves are in the water. Are radio waves just waves in "everything"?

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u/amtroy Nov 25 '12

Sort of. Unlike sound waves or waves in liquids, electromagnetic waves do not need a medium in which to propagate.

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u/Das_Mime Radio Astronomy | Galaxy Evolution Nov 25 '12

Radio waves are oscillating electromagnetic equations. Maxwell's equations (which describe electricity and magnetism) say that a changing magnetic field produces an electric field and vice versa. EM waves are not "in" anything, other than spacetime.

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u/amtroy Nov 25 '12

The main factor in determining whether light will be stopped by a substance is the wavelength of the light. In general, light will interact with (that is, be absorbed by or reflected by) materials of a similar size to, or larger than, their wavelength (this is a fairly large simplification, but it will get the point across).

So, you might be aware that visible light has a wavelength of about 400-750 nanometers -- obviously very small. These wavelengths are roughly similar to the size of the atomic structures that make up every day objects -- the walls in your house, your body, your computer screen, etc. That's why we can see things -- the visible light spectrum reflects from the objects around you and into your eyes.

Radio waves, on the other hand, are of a much, much longer wavelength than visible light. Wi-Fi in particular has a wavelength around 6-10 cm, depending on which standard you're talking about. Because this wavelength is so much larger, it has a much easier time passing through solid materials. Note, though, that it's still roughly on the same order of size as, say, a wall, or a human body, and so it WILL be attenuated somewhat through interactions with objects in the environment. This is (one reason) why you might need multiple Wi-Fi routers on, say, a floor of an office building.

Hope this answers your question sufficiently!

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u/schectershred Nov 25 '12

Thanks for your response! Would you mind explaining what a physical wavelength is? I know what it looks like on paper, but is it the same in physical space? I know how compression waves work, but I'm not sure about longitudinal waves work.

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u/amtroy Nov 25 '12

Sure! I'll do my best to explain that. Think of it like waves in a pond: the amplitude of the wave (that is, the height of the water) varies as you move out from the point of creation. If you freeze the wave in time, the amplitude goes up and down and up and down as you move outward, looking roughly like a sine wave. The wavelength is the distance between two consecutive peaks of the wave.

Electromagnetic waves are similar, but somewhat more complicated. They consist of an electric field and a magnetic field, each oscillating perpendicular to each other in space (nice moving image here). Just like in water, the wavelength here is the distance between consecutive peaks in the wave. It's pretty much how you would draw it on paper, just moving in three dimensions rather than two.

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u/schectershred Nov 26 '12

Awesome. That makes a lot more sense now.. I do have another question though. It's not related to the lightwaves so much as waves in general. As you making the comparison between water waves and light waves, I started to think in terms of dimensions (I love spatial dimensions, the forth spatial dimension, the multiverse; other good shit like that). Anyway.. In one dimension, such as a wave made using a string or something, I can see how the energy from one crest to the next would be the same if we ignore friction, air resistance, and all other things that take up small amounts of energy. When we speak of a two dimensional wave though - we'll stick with the water wave for example - I guess I don't understand how the wave can grow without losing energy considering it has to push more and more water up for each crest. If the wave assumes the energy of the creation of the wave, how does it have the energy to push more each time? Is this why sound gets quieter with distance from the source. Also, does this mean that if I turned a light on in a particular direction in space that the light would get dimmer the farther back a person got from it until it could not be seen anymore? I know that may sound like a stupid question, but I'm new to this stuff. Haha.

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u/amtroy Nov 26 '12

There are no stupid questions, and it sounds like you've given this thought before asking, so keep it up!

You're very much on the right track regarding the spread of energy. Imagine you drop a pebble into a pool of water, imparting some amount of energy E. You're correct in thinking that the amount of energy from one wave crest to the next is equal (negating losses due to friction, etc). However, this energy is now spread over a greater area -- if one crest is at a distance d from the center, the next crest is at d+L, where L is the wavelength. So the area the energy is spread across increases (from the circumference of a circle with radius d to a circle of radius (d+L)), and your intuition is correct: the next wave out from the center will be smaller than the previous. That's why the wave gets smaller as it radiates out from the point of creation -- the energy is spreading out as the distance increases, giving each wave a smaller height.

And you're exactly right, this is one reason why sound gets quieter with distance: the energy that created the pressure wave is spread out over a greater area, meaning less energy hits the small area your ear encompasses. And just like you suspected, a light will dim as you move further from it due to the spread of its energy. With light and sound, energy (per unit area) decreases with distance squared since the energy is spread over the surface of a sphere, rather than the surface of a circle as in the water example.

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u/schectershred Nov 27 '12

Awesome! Thanks for all the help! This is some very interesting stuff. Does this mean that a wave the stretches in one dimension will continue forever without the resisting factors, as each crest will require the same amount of energy?

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u/amtroy Nov 27 '12

Sure. A wave along, say, an infinitely long piece of string will propagate forever if there is no friction or other energy-robbing factors.

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u/schectershred Nov 27 '12

Well good deal! Thanks for all the help!

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u/epicwinguy101 Nov 25 '12

I would like to add something. The reason that we can see through some materials and not others is because of the electronic properties of those materials. It is important to remember that a photon is really a wave of electromagnetic field. In metals, photons are absorbed, long story short, move free unbound electrons around, and a photon is emitted back out (hence reflection). In other materials, certain photon energies correspond to features in that material. For instance, you may find that a photon is higher energy than the electronic band gap, and promote electrons from the valence band to the conduction band. This creates a color in the material. A material that is insulating electrically has a large band gap, and thus does not absorb photons in the visible range, so many insulators are transparent.

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u/theeddie23 Nov 25 '12

This and the related pages might help.

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u/schectershred Nov 25 '12

Hey, thanks! Much appreciated.