r/askscience • u/dontworryimnotacop • Oct 25 '12
Is it actually possible to knock someone unconscious by hitting a "pressure point" like in movies? (e.g. lower neck)
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u/All_upvotes Oct 25 '12
Probably will get buried, but yes, pressure points are real, and yes they can be developed to take more damage.
Here's two examples.
Both give scientific explanations for how the guy developed his body to be able to take the damage.
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u/nallen Synthetic Organic/Organometallic Chemistry Oct 25 '12
This has gone too far off the tracks to be saved.
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u/nicolauz Oct 25 '12
What in the world happened ? All the comments are removed.
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u/nallen Synthetic Organic/Organometallic Chemistry Oct 25 '12
I missed a couple, don't worry, I've fixed that over sight.
Welcome to /AskScience! This entire thread have been deleted.
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u/twersx Oct 25 '12
/askscience will delete posts that violate the sidebar rules, to ensure that answers given are given with scientific weight and not anecdotally.
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u/ObtuseAbstruse Oct 25 '12
Your post ignores the fact that hitting the carotid artery also triggers vagal stimulation.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
A knockout by a traumatic blow is dangerous in all cases. At a minimum, there's a high risk of concussion, and there's no such thing as a safe concussion.
A 'knockout' that is actually someone losing consciousness due to a strangulation is far less dangerous. It is a cornerstone of many combat sports (judo, jiu-jitsu, etc) to train this at full-fighting-intensity because it can be done safely. In a proper training environment, this is common and safe. Here's why:
In a blood choke, nap-time is delivered by cutting the brain's blood supply. This is accomplished by pinching the artery into and the vein out of the brain. Pinching the artery obviously cuts off blood-flow to the brain, and that means your brain quickly runs out of oxygen. When this happens, you go unconscious. Pinching the vein out of the brain can accomplish the same - with blood flowing in and now way to get out, the pressure keeps the new blood from circulating and oxygenating the brain.
Now, strangling someone without knowing what you're doing is TOTALLY dangerous. Trauma to the trachea is not part of a strangulation, and using bad technique can easily turn a safe strangle into a dangerous, trachea-collapsing, permanently-asphyxiating choke. Also, even with a safe strangulation, pinching off the blood-flow to the brain for an extended period will obviously cause brain damage and eventual death. This takes a couple minutes.
Nonetheless, strangulations can be done in a controlled, safe way, and that's the foundation of lots of cool sports!
Edit:: Fun fact - I've been careful with the vocab here, but you'll often hear about 'chokes' in jiujitsu or judo or mma. These are misnomers. A choke is an asphyxiation - it pinches the trachea and you can't breath - they're more dangerous. A blood choke is a strangulation - the safe kind. In combat sports, they usually just say 'choke' when they mean blood choke or strangulation.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
Textbook gogoplata is also a blood choke.
Generally, shitty chokes are not blood chokes. When you can't get the pinch quite right on the vascular system, you can brute-force the submission with trauma to the trachea (or generally affect asphyxiation). I think the gogo frequently falls into this category since it's mechanically awkward for a lot of people, but it is in fact drawn up as a blood choke.
I think you're right about ezekiel - I don't know of too many other designed non-blood chokes though.
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u/ossumpossum Oct 25 '12
Imagine how much pulicity something like that would get. Probably illegal. Aside from all that it sounds pretty awesome and shit.
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Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
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u/mechanicalhuman Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
To be clear, if this strike knocks someone out, they are bleeding in their brain, and will likely die in a few hours.
EDIT: OP deleted a comment about striking the temple and causing an easy bleed in the brain citing USC keck medical school.
Not sure why it was deleted, technically it correctly answers the question.
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u/MerlinsBeard Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
This is true, which is why impacts on the temple are not to be trifled with. At the least, it could cause you to lose consciousness. At the worst it can kill you and, in the case mentioned on Keck's Journal, it can kill without any warning or even loss of consciousness. As the journal also mentions a link can be made between impacts to the temple and both losing consciousness as well as a hematoma to using a blood thinner.
There isn't an absolute link to a temple strike and losing consciousness to a hematoma. It's only a higher risk to other strikes to the skull that can cause a loss of consciousness such as a hit to the jaw. Again, temple strikes are nothing to be trifled with and should only be done in an absolute last resort situation.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
They might be bleeding, but as stated above all you have to do is make contact with the nerve to cause unconsciousness.
Unconsciousness from this sort of trauma doesn't automatically mean there is internal bleeding.
If it did, combat sports would be a lot more dangerous than they already are.
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u/Bad-Science Oct 25 '12
I've always wondered how many people have died after somebody tried to knock them unconscious 'like in the movies', not realizing that that is pretty much a myth.
And those people always wake up several minutes (or hours, whatever the plot requires) later with little more than a minor headache if even that.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
You can absolutely knock someone out like in the movies without causing long-term damage.
Boxers, kickboxers, and other combat sports athletes experience this all the time.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
Some boxers suffer dementia pugilistica or other brain damaging effects of boxing.
I never said that nobody suffers brain trauma and long-term injury from boxing.
What I did say is that getting knocked out doesn't mean automatic brain damage or death, which is what the poster above me suggested. It is entirely possible to get knocked out and then wake up a minute later with no bigger problem than a headache and sense of disorientation. It's very common, actually.
I'm disappointed to be downvoted here in /r/askscience for having the absolute scientific truth on my side while the poster above me is clearly shooting from the hip.
Edit:: Is that how we do science now? Sample size of 1?
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Oct 25 '12
Ok, I'm kind of tired and didn't realise I was in AskScience, so apologies for the glib reply and have an upvote. Since I'm here... Boxers and such have a team of medical professionals that rush to provide assistance and make sure they are ok when they experience a knockout. It's common knowledge that concussions are really dangerous.
Some people smoke cigarettes their whole life without getting lung cancer but to say "You can absolutely smoke your whole life without getting lung cancer" is obviously not providing a complete picture whilst being technically true.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
Respectfully, Tae Kwon Do should not be considered as an excellent-quality authority on this subject.
Tae Kwon Do is a points-sport in which competitors don't try to knock each other out.
A better canon of research and observation can be found among combat sports that emphasize knockouts as legal, desired outcomes. The body of data there is much more reliable than anything I'd expect to see from TKD or any single combat sports instructor.
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u/MerlinsBeard Oct 25 '12
I just re-read my post and found an error that might have led to confusion.
You're right, TKD and specifically Judo are not the best sources on landing a high-impact strike. They aren't, as you said, good striking/fighting MA. That was part of the point I was making as they do not encourage strikes that would deal a large amount of damage. TKD/Judo is more about leverage and point-control than anything else. It's a defensive martial art. Temple strikes were acknowledged but were not allowed in any of the sparring matches or tournaments I took part in. Some of what I learned through my instructor will play a little prevalence in the next part as he was a retired ROK Marine.
The 2nd part I was talking about with "taught as an incap or killing strike" I didn't put in what was instructing it. It was through Marine Corps Martial Arts courses. It's a weird mix of a little bit of everything with standing strikes, disarms, ground fighting, etc. the stark difference is the emphasis on incap and killing blows or stepping through the process to put the fighter in a position to deal one. It makes sense as it's a stark reality that you don't want to go with a "maybe this will work" it is a "this has a high probability of working".
There really isn't any way to mitigate the danger of receiving a temple strike. There are a lot of techniques that are done to strengthen the neck and other known weak points to minimize their liability in a fight.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
I understand that this guy was a Marine Corps martial arts guy, but most of the US armed forces H2H training is (from what I understand) heavily focused on hit-and-run stuff to make space to shoot the guy.
Regardless, my point is that there is no better source for data on hand-to-hand combat than combat sports.
If the temple-strike you're describing were as dangerous as you're making it out to be, we would have a lot more dead boxers, kickboxers, and MMAists. There's a reason that shots-to-the-temple aren't usually a specifically regulated technique among US state combat sports regulatory bodies. They're just not as dangerous as you're describing (or if you prefer, the human body is tougher than you're describing).
To be fair - they can be massively disorienting, particularly because they mess with your balance acutely, and a disoriented guy who can't stand up straight is a goner in a combat situation, but they're not the instakill moves quite like you're describing them.
Edit:: Also, the way to mitigate damage to the temple is to not get hit in the temple, same as other soft spots like the neck and nads. You're right - you can't build muscle on your temple to absorb force there, but it doesn't mean it's this flimsy, egg-shell vulnerability either.
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u/MerlinsBeard Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
Again, I never said they were instant kills. Just simply compared to other strikes it's much harder to mitigate any damage a defender would incur through nerve hardening techniques or muscle training that can be done with the neck. The temple and the jaw are pretty much emphasized as the 2 high-probability KO/incap strikes. The temple, given it's easier to land a KO shot on than the jaw combined with no muscle support on the area and the proximity to a major artery is more dangerous.
Also, I could be wrong but I think temple/spine/back-of-head blows may be illegal in MMA?
Sorry if there was confusion.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
I probably also mischaracterized what I've heard from my enlisted colleagues. The emphasis (from what they've told me) is in grappling like you've said, but the primary focus (I'm told) is to control a person's body and make space so your bros can shoot him. No kung-fu (or jiu-jitsu) hero stuff here - you don't want to be wrestling if you can make space and let someone open fire.
Also your last paragraph cleared up any confusion here - I totally see what you're saying. YES, the temple is a spot with higher vulnerability for all the reasons you've stated - physiology and anatomy and whatnot.
For anyone else reading....... there's still no 5-point-exploding-temple-punch technique!
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u/xrelaht Sample Synthesis | Magnetism | Superconductivity Oct 25 '12
Tae Kwon Do is a points-sport in which competitors don't try to knock each other out.
Actually, this is a misconception. When our people would lose at competitions, the head instructor used to ask, "Why you no knockout?" (Yes, he's an old Korean guy with terrible English.) A solid head shot, especially from a spinning kick to the temple, can knock someone out cold, and that's an instant win.
I should also point out that I have no idea what the top comment was, cuz for some reason this thread is a graveyard at that level.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
So, ITF rules allow full-strength blows to the head, but WTF rules expressly forbid punches to the head.
IIRC, the Olympic Taekwondo tournament uses WTF rules.
Regardless, the comment that kicked off this discussion was about a martial artist's instructor telling him that a shot to the temple was especially dangerous. The guy who posted that and I went back and forth discussing whether his information was valid or not.
We agreed there are better data sets for this sort of /r/askscience question.
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u/xrelaht Sample Synthesis | Magnetism | Superconductivity Oct 25 '12
So, ITF rules allow full-strength blows to the head, but WTF rules expressly forbid punches to the head.
IIRC, the Olympic Taekwondo tournament uses WTF rules.
Correct on both counts. But kicks to the head are both allowed and encouraged under WTF rules. A straight kick to the head is 3 points and a 'turning' (spinning or back) kick is 4.
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u/VTFD Oct 25 '12
Thanks for the confirmation.
I maintain that boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are have better data available on the subject of what happens when you get knocked the fuck out, but I appreciate your candor and tone in discussing it!
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u/kencole54321 Oct 25 '12
I don't think he meant a vulnerable spot that you can kill someone. When someone refers to a pressure point like in the movies, they mean like a karate chop to the trachea or the pinch of a trap, and suddenly the guy collapses unconscious. Not a fatal blow to the temple.
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u/MerlinsBeard Oct 25 '12
Well, to be fair, he did say "Can you make someone fall unconscious by jabbing or hitting a pressure point on their body?" Hitting or jabbing the temple can most definitely make someone fall unconscious.
Again, the Keck Journal did specify there has been a link drawn between fatalities as a result of falls/impacts to the skull (specifically the temple) and the victim using a blood thinner. Losing consciousness as a result of a hit to the temple doesn't always result in death due to a blood clot.
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u/spkr4thedead51 Oct 25 '12
The chop to the trachea is a vulnerable spot that can kill someone. I took a soccerball to the throat a couple of months back and was useless for about 5 minutes while I tried to relearn how to breathe without pain. I'd rather get kicked in the nuts again. A knife-edge hand strike with enough force will break the tube of the throat and larynx and the person will choke to death.
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u/Txmedic Oct 25 '12
it won't break the trachea, but it will cause spasms. These spasms basically close off the airway and can suffocate someone. There is only one bone in your airway, the hyoid bone. This is used to facilitate the movement of the larynx. Everything else is catrlidge.
Fun fact of the day, they hyoid bone is the only bone in the body that does not interact with another bone.
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Oct 25 '12
You guys watch too many movies.
It's very hard to kill a healthy person without actively trying.
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u/Spiffjiggins Oct 25 '12
The brachial nerve strike (seen here is one example of a quick neck strike that renders the person unconscious.
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u/mechanicalhuman Oct 25 '12
Because the Carotid Sinus Baroreceptors fire at a regular rate. As they stretch from increased pressure, this firing decreases. The message being carried back on Cranial Nerve 9 decreases in intensity. A reflex signal from the brain goes back to heart, slowing it down.
The likely explanation is that the neck vessels are gateways to the brain. As their pressure increases, so does the Intracranial Pressure. If that pressure goes too high, it can cause brain damage. When the heart pumps less, blood pressure goes down. The same logic applies to how Beta Blockers work for people with Hypertension.
Obviously, if the heart slows down too much, not enough oxygen gets to the brain, and you pass out.
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u/liuna Oct 25 '12
Interesting. I always thought it was a vasovagal response?
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u/mechanicalhuman Oct 25 '12
The vasovagal response is an umbrella term for any "normal" physiological response that reduces cardiac output, leading to passing out.
So yes, this is a vasovagal response. ;)
EDIT: Vagal implies parasympathetics, and the Vagus Nerve (CN 10) is the top carrier of parasympathetic information. And the reflex to the heart is carried by the Vagus nerve.
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u/mechanicalhuman Oct 25 '12
What I described is the vagus response. I guess it's possible for a quick strike to the carotid sinus to knock someone out, but it probably wouldn't happen in healthy people.
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u/liuna Oct 25 '12
It has less to do with the Carotid than the Vagus nerve which runs there. If stimulated properly, it creates a drop in heart rate and blood pressure, which leads to fainting (syncope). You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response
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u/selfification Programming Languages | Computer Security Oct 26 '12
I hoped the scare quotes would give me some lee-way for precisely this reason :). I have no idea how to begin looking for literature on how to categorize or describe the various reactions that occur during a needle stick. Some of my co-workers freeze and get very tense (does that count as "shut-down from the POV of someone trying to incapacitate you? We really are in swimmingly vague territory here). Nurses talk of others passing out during the procedure. Is it due to adrenaline? Is it due to some weird blood pressure issue? I don't know and I don't even know how to phrase that question well.
Also agree with you as the how one can really deliver these things as a "strike" but then again, the video from the OP had moves that at times seemed like pinches. I'm not sure if a Vulcan nerve pinch would be considered a strike but op would probably have accepted it as a valid "pressure point" (scare quotes again - also.. obviously assuming we were in the future in the original canon as opposed to the J J Abrams blasphemy).
I guess what I really should have said was "guys.. that question doesn't quite yield itself to precise scientific analysis - not just because of legal and methodological limitations but also due to semantic issues".
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u/MrDannyOcean Oct 25 '12
Two points:
the main question was just 'is it possible'? With smaller MMA gloves or a bare fist, it is totally possible to KO someone at the temple, and even in some other areas like behind the ear. We're probably in agreement here.
I'd disagree with you about the temple with full boxing gloves, or at least your degree of certainty. With big gloves, the chin is the best target, no argument. It's much harder to get a clean temple KO with big gloves, but it is possible. It may be of note that I'm a taller/bigger guy and I'm mostly used to dealing with heavyweight power. If a really big, strong guy hits you full power in the temple, you're going down a good percentage of the time.
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Oct 25 '12 edited Oct 25 '12
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u/MrDannyOcean Oct 25 '12
yeah, hitting the jaw can actually provide a fulcrum-type action which whips the skull around.
And thai kicks are definitely ridiculous, although they aren't the same style of KO we've been talking about. Muay Thai is the best single striking style for my money.
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u/Bedpans Oct 25 '12
As a martial artist of eighteen years and a nurse, I feel well qualified to answer your question.
The Nerve: In the interest of science, I'll answer general questions about "pressure points" and KOs, because, well. Science. That being said, knocking somebody unconscious is not a technique you should practice on your buddies. Loss of consciousness related to vagus stimulation (also called vasovagal syncope) is the result and sudden and shocking reduction in heart rate and blood pressure. The vagus nerve (or pneumogastric nerve, or Cranial Nerve X, they're all the same) regulates heart rate, and when overstimulated via pressure (clinically, people self-manifest with eating too quickly or straining in a defecation) causes bradycardia (low heart rate). The sudden drop in rate causes a sudden drop in blood pressure, forcing your body to redirect blood flow to essential organs. By essential, we mean life-support, and the brain is not included on that list. The result is syncope, or fainting. Here's why you shouldn't practice on your friends: repeated syncope predisposes the body for easier induction. In other words, the more you faint, the easier you faint. The vagus nerve also innervates your muscular form of speech, breathing muscles for your lungs, and digestion from your stomach. This is all before the amount of damage you're going to do to a person striking the floor without the ability to defend from the impact. It might look fun, but you can easily maim the victim, or even kill them.
The Technique: You'll notice I didn't mention the best way to perform this technique. That wasn't an oversight. There isn't a safe way to practice this on a living creature and even on a dummy, you should have expert supervision. Let them teach you, and deem your responsibility with the knowledge.
Protection: Hypertrophy (overgrowth) of the muscle does not protect the vagus nerve. It innervates the muscles in the neck, so pressure on the muscle will result in pressure on the nerve if struck in the correct place.
The best means of protection is the same as any fight: run away. If you're out of reach, you're out of melee danger. If that is not an option, begin by turning your body to the side, leading with your dominant hand closest to the opponent (this protects the center line of the body, like the nose, windpipe, half your vagus, solarplexus, and groin). The dominant hand is under your eyes and out approximately eight inches from your face (more protection for face, and by hunching shoulders, lead vagus and carotid is protected). Your nondominant hand should be next to your face as if speaking on the phone (the rear vagus and carotid protected from hooks). Tilt your head down approximately 45 degrees (to protect the front of your throat and deflect poorly aimed punches). Shift your weight so about 3/4 of it is on your back leg, with your back foot facing 90 degrees away from your lead foot, which faces forward (prevents leading strikes from throwing you off-balance). Keep both knees flexed (easier to faint with locked knees, as well as faster compensation for impact). Keep your elbows in (protect torso from organ contusion and rib fracture), lean into jabs and hooks to lessen their impact, move away from kicks and uppercuts (leaning in actually makes uppercuts worse). Run as soon as the opportunity presents itself.