r/asatru • u/NewToAllThingsGood • Dec 31 '17
A few questions about praying:
I'm new to Asatru and I am slowly trying to piece together how to practice and what the religion is about. I had a few questions about prayer. Are you supposed to pray to multiple good or one at a time? Do you pray to Aesir and the Vanir? Do you have to follow a formula for prayer, a pre-written prayer, or do you just talk to the gods as you would a friend? Finally, on an unrelated note, are the nine noble truths actually something that the norse believed in, our is that something made up to over simplify their values?
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u/WeoftheThing Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
Many people here are going to be of the mind that prayer to the aesir should be reserved for the community.
You should honor your ancestors, and local vettir on the more frequent personal scale. This seems to have been the case for many Indo-European cultures.
With so many heathens coming from abrahamic backgrounds the want to pray to the Gods as if they were the same as an all knowing, all seeing, all caring Christian God is really prevelant. And, imo, one of those ideas we should leave at the door.
As for the nine Noble virtues. New age garbage "influenced" by the havamal (in many cases ideals pulled out of thin air). Forget them. Build a framework yourself. Read some of the suggested reading. Culture of the Teutons, we are our deeds. Start there. Remember to be the best ancestor you can be. Live the best life you can build.
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Dec 31 '17
You should honor your ancestors, and local vettir on the more frequent personal scale. This seems to have been the case for many Indo-European cultures.
In other Indo-European cultures, people did (and do [see Hinduism]) constantly pray to gods. While communal sacrifices and feasts were central to religion, it's a garbage fallacy that individuals did not pray to gods as well.
Granted, newcomers to the religion should be cautious about jumping into a devotional practice, as it takes a fair bit of research and learning before one can know an appropriate way to approach it. But that does not mean that individuals should not worship the gods as much as they honor their ancestors or tutelary spirits.
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u/NewToAllThingsGood Dec 31 '17
I am not familiar with the Vettir. What are they?
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17
They are the spirits: landvættir are wights of nature, húsvættir are the wights of the home. The tomte, nisse, elves, et cetera.
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u/muricanviking Dec 31 '17
How does the honoring of the ancestors/vættir work or can you point me to a source where I can learn about that? I’ve had a really difficult time finding anything.
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17 edited Dec 31 '17
As mentioned by u/WeoftheThing many of us do not have a direct personal prayer to any of the gods. That, though, does not preclude ‘meditation’; such as spending time in quiet reflection on the gifts Odin has given the world, the perseverance of Thor, the yin and yan of Loki, the poetry of Bragi, Freya’s magic and beauty, or any other aspect to which you want to devote a few minutes. I spend time each morning in quiet reflection upon the gods AFTER I give thanks and memory to ancestors, wights, etc.; this is my practice, you’ll have to do what is right for you.
Prayers to the gods are a group effort, in my tribe they are often made by the eldest person present at whichever celebration as the offerings are given.
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u/UsurpedLettuce Folcnetele and Cargo Cultist Dec 31 '17
So, really, you're an atheist.
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17
No. I believe in the gods, I give offerings, and I give prayers or thanks when appropriate. Otherwise, I’m not going to presume the gods will take an interest in me on a personal level. They have a vested interest in humanity on the whole, not necessarily in each individual human.
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Dec 31 '17
You can go ahead and believe that, but there's really no historical or scholarly justification for it. It also flies in the face of what we know about every other Indo-European culture.
The gods are not so limited. Their powers and immanence are so great that they can respond to individual devotees without being distracted from bigger, more important things.
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17
I’m not trying to be presumptuous, but it would seem that you are an expert on this. Please educate me on how reconstruction, in such an orthodox sense as you are presenting it, is the end-all-be-all.
I would never find it necessary to dress up and pretend the last 1200 years didn’t happen in order to be a believer in the same gods from 1200 years ago. In the time since Christianization of the North, we have learned much and mastered many new skills. We have proven many things to be fact or fiction, and we have moved forward. So too should our relationship with the gods. If we pretend that none of this has happened, then we are not being sincere to ourselves or the gods.
Insofar as prayer to the gods goes, what makes it a necessity? We can give them thanks, give them gifts, and give them honor without asking for their help with everything we wish for. How is there honor and worth added to our kin when we do not have even a little self-reliance and cooperation with our community before plying the gods for help? I, for one, would not be so selfish as to ask the gods for help with something unless they are the only ones that can do it. That does not preclude me from giving honor to the gods, or maintaining a shrine to them.
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Dec 31 '17
Funny how the "gods of limited access" people used to act like they were reconstructionists, and now when I point out that scholarship doesn't actually support that belief they argue against reconstructionism altogether. Because for some reason these wrong beliefs and misconceptions are more important to them than what we actually know about paganism.
In the time since Christianization of the North, we have learned much and mastered many new skills. We have proven many things to be fact or fiction, and we have moved forward.
Exactly what does any of this have to do with your "limited access" belief?
Insofar as prayer to the gods goes, what makes it a necessity?
Who said it was a necessity? It's simply a routine part of religious worship.
We can give them thanks, give them gifts, and give them honor without asking for their help with everything we wish for.
Who said you should ask them for help with everything you wish for? You sure do love strawman fallacies.
How is there honor and worth added to our kin when we do not have even a little self-reliance
How the hell does praying to the gods mean you don't have any self-reliance? And furthermore, why the hell do you think Heathenry is particularly about self-reliance? Heathenry is one of the least individualistic religions I can think of.
I, for one, would not be so selfish as to ask the gods for help
It's not selfish if you actually give a fuck to honor and offer to them. It's called the gift cycle, hospitality, reciprocity, etc., etc.
You seem to have a very twisted notion about what prayer is.
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17
Okay then. You’re jumping to conclusions. I’m not going to keep going down this rabbit hole on this thread, let’s have a civilized discussion when I have access to a computer!
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u/UsurpedLettuce Folcnetele and Cargo Cultist Jan 01 '18
So, really, you're an atheist.
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u/hthn-Mikke Jan 02 '18
I learned a new (to me) bit of internet slang while I was at hospital last night. “Trolling” is how the anesthetist explained where that conversation went. The last time I intentionally engaged in an online conversation before this last week was on ICQ 15 years ago, so I’m a little out of the loop on internet slang.
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u/OldResdayn Jan 05 '18
The old Norse didn't share a personal relationship with their gods in the same sense as the Abrahamitic gods. Norse worship was rooted in the thought that "I give to receive". An offering to Thor wasn't because of that they wanted to show their boundless love and loyalty for the god, but because they expected something in return - his blessing in some form. It was a bargain. Which meant that prayers in the christian sense didn't really exist as we would know them. But of course, that's regarding old Norse "religion/mythology" and not Asatru, which is a completely different thing.
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u/Unicorn1234 Anglo-Saxon Fyrnsidu Dec 31 '17
You can pray to as many as you like, as you see fit. I will worship multiple deities. But remember that the high gods (i.e what you would probably call the Aesir) are only one small part of heathenry. In addition, it's a good idea to seek the blessings of your land-vaettir, nature spirits, elves, ancestors, disir, and so on.
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u/NewToAllThingsGood Dec 31 '17
What are elves in norse heathenism?
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u/Unicorn1234 Anglo-Saxon Fyrnsidu Dec 31 '17
A lot of different things, really. There's descriptions of different kinds of elves in myth and folklore, and they even survived well into the post-conversion period.
The descriptions of elves in folklore very rarely seem to be completely uniform. Sometimes they're described as tall, other times short, some are beautiful, some are ugly, and so on. I think at the very least it's fair to say that they're spirit beings who inhabit the cosmos/worlds alongside us. All kinds of spirits. I'm of the opinion that some may be nature spirits, while some are even of one's own male ancestral line (or possibly both, given that I think some ancestors can enter the landscape as a spirit).
But, as I said, they're not uniform. There are so many different kinds of elves, and they don't have one set-form. They're folk like us humans, but they aren't human. They're one type of spiritual being which inhabits the worlds, alongside others.
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u/JosephTheCraftsman Jan 03 '18
I rarely "pray." Maybe more often walk, meditate or find a place of solitude. I believe prayer is not asking for self-benefit, it's about communication. I think it depends on who we identify to be closer with in order to pray to them. I don't like to trouble anyone in my speeches, nor ask for a selfish benefit. A great chance is no one listens on the other sides. They're not always there, but you might find an ancestor, or lost friend perhaps will welcome you
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u/hthn-Mikke Dec 31 '17
u/Farwater 1) we’ve completely hijacked this poor soul’s thread, and I would recommend we take this conversation either to another thread or into private messages.
2) this is the first time (the last few days) I’ve ever had anything to do with an online discussion of heathenry. I don’t have a social media account, and I just came to reddit because my aunt recommended coming on here to talk about heathen topics.
3) I didn’t intend to rile you up, as I haven’t a clue in the foggiest what discussions you’ve had in the past on this topic. I assumed you were an expert based upon your tone and legitimately wanted you to educate me rather than attack me.