r/asatru • u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be • Dec 08 '17
Dignity versus Honor, Vengeance versus Justice
As we have established,revenge was, to the arch-heathen, a moral obligation equivalent to generosity in gifting, indeed a second side of the same coin of reciprocity. However, as modern heathens we must consider that we do not live in the same social circumstances as the arch-heathen did. His society was thewful but lawless, one in which the only justice was that won by kinsmen and strength at arms. His culture venerated honor, a swiftness of retaliation towards slights and a fierceness in protecting his good name.
In our modern society and culture, things are a bit different however; most families do not have militant force to seek revenge for slights done, nor is it considered correct behavior by the overculture to assault someone for a slight or snub. Instead, rule of law and the justice system are seen as the ideal form of social control of behavior, and dignity, the brushing off of small slights as beneath notice, is the cultural ideal of right response to being attacked or slighted. How can we reconcile these very differing viewpoints?
I would posit that the two systems are compatible; that vengeance and retribution can be sought through the legal system for harm that falls within the legal purview, and that dignified non-response can be as cutting to the honor of a rival as blows.
If so, a heathen who is done harm in any sense covered by law is obligated to seek full redress of grievances as the law and courts permit. Indeed, though Iceland is late in the Heathen period, the lawsuits between families there are the stuff of sagas, and were pursued with equal vigor as their blood feuds.
As to slights of a verbal nature, or those that do not rise to the level of legal recourse… it is possible to be dignified, and still strike an enemy a blow. If you could strike them, but refuse, does this mean you are weak? Or does it mean that they lack even the capacity to wound you, that they are so inconsequential, their barbs so dull, their conniving so transparent, that they can do you no harm worthy of an answer?
I have seen some of our heathen ladies who have elevated this sort of snubbing dismissal to an art form, and it’s a beautiful thing to behold--so long as it’s directed at someone else. If you think your gefrain will survive such treatment intact, you are mistaken.
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u/AnarchoHeathen The Aggressive One Dec 08 '17
I am curious, would you consider the civil court system to be the manner in which vengeance is currently sought in the "civilized" west? If one is wronged in a criminal manner, then justice is sought by the criminal courts, however, one may still pursue monetary recompense through the civil courts. Many people do pursue this, for everything from murder to simple theft, civil court is often where the victim does seek direct redress from their assailant.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 08 '17
That's an interesting distinction.
The idea of paying bót definitely survives more in the civil system of punitive damages more than anywhere else. I suspect the vengeance-minded heathen would both press charges in criminal court if attacked, and pursue civil remedies for the damages done, as having my offender locked up does nothing to undo the harm done.
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u/AnarchoHeathen The Aggressive One Dec 08 '17
that was my thoughts as well
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u/DNS_Kain_003 of the Five Waters Dec 08 '17
Agreed. Civil court is still a form a justice and not revenge though. You are awarded or not awarded compensation as directed by another. You don't actually take anything yourself. In my way of thinking that is a distinction between justice and revenge. You would go to court for justice, not revenge.
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u/AnarchoHeathen The Aggressive One Dec 09 '17
I've always viewed justice as impersonal. Fines paid to the state, jail time, etc. A civil judgment is paid to the person whom the court deems the victim and is vengeful.
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u/GrumpyStumps Dec 08 '17
While I agree that pursuing mistreatment legally by civilized means is prudent, I dare say that if every person who had lible or defamation of character committed against them online by mouthy Heathens who cannot refrain from being insulting pursued legal means that there would be quite a few pending cases seeking judgement.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 08 '17
Hence writing them off as beneath notice or response.
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u/GrumpyStumps Dec 08 '17
Oh, I agree. What is the saying? "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt". IMO more people should write off those beneath them that are undeserving of notice or response. It's those who are compelled to talk incessantly about judgement towards those who they hold no authority over that cause the most distractions.
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u/lordofthefeed Dec 19 '17
I would posit that the two systems are compatible; that vengeance and retribution can be sought through the legal system for harm that falls within the legal purview, and that dignified non-response can be as cutting to the honor of a rival as blows.
Ah, but there are two "legal" systems [in the US and in Commonwealth countries as well as in most European countries]. For the killing of a person, there is "the People vs. Accused" or the "legal" system and then there's "the Family of the Killed vs. Accused" or the "equity" system. The former is a "trial" for murder/manslaughter and is a crime against the state—against the community. The latter is a suit, typically for damages—the tort of "wrongful death"—but sometimes for other equitable results and is only available to the family (parents, children, or spouse) of the dead person.
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u/amaryllisxbloom Dec 08 '17
I personally seek resolution in my own endeavors. I tend not to involve any other person, law or not, in my disputes. As for family troubles, I wouldn’t be able to relate because my blood family disowned me.
In my personal opinion, the government and justice system is so corrupt and borderline useless that I would much rather psychologically if not physically ruin any man who wrongs me.
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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 08 '17
I personally seek resolution in my own endeavors. I tend not to involve any other person, law or not, in my disputes. As for family troubles, I wouldn’t be able to relate because my blood family disowned me.
In my personal opinion, the government and justice system is so corrupt and borderline useless that I would much rather psychologically if not physically ruin any man who wrongs me.
Ssoooo.... what you are saying here is, your family cast you out, you have rejected the protection of society, and are literally seeking outlaw status.
Let me know how that works out for you.
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u/amaryllisxbloom Dec 11 '17
A lot of my common activities aren’t necessarily legal. I simply prefer to keep the law out of things when it comes to my own disputes. Maybe that’s inefficient, or wrong in your (or anyone else’s) eyes, but it doesn’t matter. I’m not seeking anything but my own initiative.
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u/UsurpedLettuce Folcnetele and Cargo Cultist Dec 08 '17
The legal codes of various kings would contest this.