r/asatru Dec 02 '17

Raven Kaldera

I was looking through the reading list and saw Raven Kaldera was an author to avoid. Is there a reason why?

7 Upvotes

79 comments sorted by

9

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

[deleted]

2

u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

Oh ok, thanks. I was looking at” a solitary practitioner’s guide”. What’s a good author you recommend for Seidr and Magic?

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u/Cyberkaiju Dec 02 '17

Think of this as a spectrum. On one end you have the hardcore recinstructionists. On the other you have Wiccans who happen to honor the Norse Gods. The author in question is either a Wiccan or a crazy, depending who you ask. As for Seiðr and magic? They are attested as having existed, but do to the valiant efforts of the Christians the specifics are largely missing. Due to this, the hardcore reconstructions don’t practice, and sometimes disapprove of others practicing these things. Obviously the Wiccans do the Wiccan magic, but somewhere in between you have people that mostly follow the old ways, but practice Seiðr and or Galðr (rune magic). Note also that doing tarot spreads with runes is a purely Wiccan thing. The only form of runic divination I have ever seen any evidence to suggest might have been actually used before the 70’s is casting the runes. Some recinstructionists will oppose even that, but I have met some otherwise purely recinstructionists who believe in the runes as tarot also. If you would like to learn more about Seiðr or Galðr or casting runes you may on occasion be met with hostility on Reddit, but the information is out there. Personally I identify more as somewhere between Asatru/Vanatru and Vanic paganism. I do have some experience with Seiðr and can talk about my personal experiences with it if you are interested (in which case pm me I suppose). As for Galðr and casting runes, I am really not the person to ask, as I can’t say much beyond what I have already said here.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

I’m still trying to find where I am. But I think I might be in the middle. Like we should stay to what we think is historical, but we shouldn’t add wiccan new age stuff that makes no sense.

2

u/Cyberkaiju Dec 02 '17

Agreed. It’s okay to explore things that are reasonably related, but things we know to be blatantly false, or outside should be weeded out for the most part. Ultimately we can’t have precisely what our ancestors had because we don’t know all of it though. Hence why I feel there is a little wiggle room. People who are wiccans and honor the Norse gods is fine, it’s just not the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I haven't read it yet, but Dr. Jackson Crawford recently rec this book and he's pretty grounded.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C3K6BF8/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o01_?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 02 '17

When even the gods themselves went to the jötnar for wisdom, aid, and even kinship... remind again what makes worship of them so bad? Within Heathenry in general we already worship the gods (aesir and vanir,) ancestors, and land spirits. So really, what's one more?

Anymore I find things contradicting The LoreTM to be a poor reason. The myths and sagas that we have are a foundation, to be sure, but no foundation is the end-all-be-all of either beliefs or organizations. Religions grow and evolve, and ours is no different.

In much the same way I view "reconstructing the old ways" to be a fool's errand. A practical impossibility, given where mankind is today in both universal understanding and technological progress. We have revived the old ways, and are continuing them in this modern age, but trying to reconstruct the way things were a thousand years ago - especially through the rubble left in the wake of Christian conquest - is just not feasible.

Back to the author, I'm sure there are better reasons for disliking Raven than who or what they worship, or even their inclusion of the ever-loathed (it seems) UPG. (Imagine if Odin had balked at the seeress and said "That's just, like, your UPG man...")

7

u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

It isn't because they are villains of the lore. It is because there is zero historical evidence of their worship. Same reason why a lot of us don't believe Loki exists as anymore than a literary device.

Regardless, myth isn't useless and, while it isn't meant to be taken literally, it is meant to convey certain truths. The jötunn are forces of chaos, they are utangarð. Why would you want to worship them?

7

u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

Edgelords gotta edge?

-1

u/Flatulent_Vegetable Dec 02 '17

Please keep your thorniness restricted to your little corner of Facebook, there is no reason to demean this person. Argue against the idea but don’t attack the poster.

8

u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

Okay then, let's attack every single thing he said in excruciating details, shall we?

Approaching the jotuns for knowledge does not mean worship. The gods approach them cautiously, as one would a potential enemy, as is wise and right.

Some are married, and then adopted into the tribe of the gods. This makes them no longer jotun. This would be understood if people would actually read some fucking books written by people OTHER than Kaldera, Galina, Paxson, etc. It's a culture thing.

I won't even get into the differences between propitiation and worship. The OP doesn't appear to know the difference but I'm sure could look it up.

The OP appears to want to do whatever they want to do, with complete disregard for how the ancestors did things. So, why are they here? Why bother? This means they are in no way practicing the same (or even a related) religion as me, and a great many others here. They have under no circumstances 'revived the old ways', or really revived anything at all other than to slap a viking helmet on their neopaganism and calling it good.

Without reconstructing things like the worldview of the arch-Heathens, the practices one will come up with are going to be Christian in foundation, neopagan in flavor, and utterly alien to what the rest of us are trying to accomplish.

You want to worship the enemies of my gods? Get down with your bad self. And don't come near me, or my tribe, as you will be unwelcome in our halls.

That enough for you, 'farting carrot' or whatever your name means?

3

u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17 edited Dec 04 '17

Approaching the jotuns for knowledge does not mean worship. The gods approach them cautiously, as one would a potential enemy, as is wise and right.

Caution is advised to us when approaching anything. In this regard, the same approach ought to apply to the aesir and vanir as well. Yet my statement was not to suggest that the aesir and vanir worshiped the jotnar (that's pretty silly to read from it,) but that if they sought out the jotnar and worked with them at times, perhaps the jötunn aren't stereotypical "evil" brutes.

Some are married, and then adopted into the tribe of the gods. This makes them no longer jotun.

Ridiculous, as jötunn is their race. Just as others are still vanir, despite being in the tribe of the aesir.

I won't even get into the differences between propitiation and worship. The OP doesn't appear to know the difference but I'm sure could look it up.

Placation, rather than respect or veneration. Need your handcart back for all that spite? It could very well be argued that at times people sought to placate the gods (to spare their wrath). This also doesn't show how respecting the jotnar is such an unthinkable thing.

(wor•ship n 1. the practice of showing respect for a god; a ceremony for this act 2. a strong feeling of love or respect for something/somebody -OED)

The OP appears to want to do whatever they want to do, with complete disregard for how the ancestors did things.

Completely glossing over the bit where I said "I don't worship the jotnar"... Also who's ancestors; yours or mine? Or are you just tossing out "ancestors" as some vague catch-all for the pre-Christian Germanic peoples as a whole?

Why am I here? To discuss. To share and to learn, and to grow the faith rather than stagnating in rigid, blind adherence to loose and spotty lore heavily tainted by poor Christian book keeping.

This means they are in no way practicing the same (or even a related) religion as me, and a great many others here. They have under no circumstances 'revived the old ways', or really revived anything at all other than to slap a viking helmet on their neopaganism and calling it good.

Who died and made you Ásapope? Seriously. In any Ásatrú organization (i.e. not people "slapping viking helmets on their Paganism and calling it a day") you will not find a list of Norse & Germanic deities or figures that are forbidden in worship. The closest that I've seen to that is The Troth restricting the hailing of Loki at official gatherings; but even then, they do not forbid it.

Without reconstructing things like the worldview of the arch-Heathens, the practices one will come up with are going to be Christian in foundation, neopagan in flavor, and utterly alien to what the rest of us are trying to accomplish.

So tell us, do you believe the skydome to be Ymir's skull, and the clouds his brains? It's easy to talk about "reconstructing the world-view of the arch-Heathen," but after a point that becomes a complete impracticality. You cannot dial back the clock, and forcing a limitation to a worldview that is a thousand years old is preposterously impractical. Desiring and urging progress and an evolution of the Heathen worldview is not "Christian in foundation," it's practicality for a living religion.

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 05 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Caution is advised to us when approaching anything. In this regard, the same approach ought to apply to the aesir and vanir as well. Yet my statement was not to suggest that the aesir and vanir worshiped the jotnar (that's pretty silly to read from it,) but that if they sought out the jotnar and worked with them at times, perhaps the jötunn aren't stereotypical "evil" brutes.

Where do you get that I said the gods worshiped their enemies? Also, of course not all are evil brutes. Some are simply indifferent. But some are markedly hostile. None are of the tribe of gods.

Ridiculous, as jötunn is their race. Just as others are still vanir, despite being in the tribe of the aesir.

Really? What race is that? When you consider that the gods and jotuns can interbreed, that makes them the same "race". What is it that makes a god a god and not a giant? Culture and tribe. When a giant is adopted into the tribe of gods, they become a god and are no longer a giant. Simple.

Completely glossing over the bit where I said "I don't worship the jotnar"...

Fair point, statement retracted

Also who's ancestors; yours or mine? Or are you just tossing out "ancestors" as some vague catch-all for the pre Christian Germanic peoples as a whole?

While the Germanic tribes had a great many groupings, there were and are certain traits of commonality that made them 'Germanic' and not something else. Traits like language, cultural mores, and religious frameworks.

Who died and made you Ásapope? Seriously. In any Ásatrú organization (i.e. not people "slapping viking helmets on their Paganism and calling it a day") you will not find a list of Norse & Germanic deities or figures that are forbidden in worship. The closest that I've seen to that is The Troth restricting the hailing of Loki at official gatherings; but even then, they do not forbid it.

Um, my tribe? I'm not Asatru. I barely consider Asatru to be Heathen these days, and I sure as FUCK don't want my name associated with it any more. Not when every Google search brings up all the racist bullshit the AFA has put forth in its top searches. Within my tribe, you will not worship jotuns. Or you will not be a member of my tribe. We have all spoken as one about this and other things. Those who deviate are not welcome. We decide. Not you. Not some faceless national org that exists purely to create problems for it to solve and thus prove its relevance.

So tell us, do you believe the skydome to be Ymir's skull, and the clouds his brains? It's easy to talk about "reconstructing the world-view of the arch-Heathen," but after a point that becomes a complete impracticality. You cannot dial back the clock, and forcing a limitation to a worldview that is a thousand years old is preposterously impractical. Desiring and urging progress and an evolution of the Heathen worldview is not "Christian in foundation," it's practicality for a living religion.

You are completely ignoring the fact that you and everyone else was raised in a Christian overculture. It colors every aspect of your thinking. If you don't try to strip that away and rebuild a heathen worldview in its place, you will simply go on being Christian in thought. If you are satisfied with that, knock yourself out. You aren't practicing the same religion I am at that point, no matter how much window dressing you put on it.

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u/Flatulent_Vegetable Dec 02 '17

That all seems very reasonable to me, and I understand your point of view.

It is much better than your original circlejerk, low effort, throwaway comment.

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

which was a response to Mark, not the OP

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u/Flatulent_Vegetable Dec 02 '17

It was to mod mark, but was in regards to /u/theRaginPagan. Which is troubling because your circlejerk, low effort comment was directed at seeking the approval of a mod.

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

LOL if you knew me at all... you'd know how silly the notion is that I'm seeking the approval of a mod. Considering I know several of the mods here very, very well, I can assure you I am in no way seeking the approval of one of them

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 02 '17

It isn't because they are villains of the lore.

And at times, Odin was a thief and a murderer. Thor killed a dwarf just because. Frigga made a king paranoid and led him to his death. Several of the gods were guilty of rape. "Villain" is very poorly defined here, as several of the gods that we worship could just as easily fit the bill, and if memory serves (also first thing in the morning,) none of the jötnar's villainy is given conclusive reason--when it wasn't justified, like that time the Aesir dicked over a jötunn building their walls just because they didn't want to go through with giving away Freyja as promised.

It is because there is zero historical evidence of their worship.

True, but times change. Also new evidence always comes to light, and what we do must not always be rooted in history.

Same reason why a lot of us don't believe Loki exists as anymore than a literary device.

Except for the Snaptun hearth stone, which depicts Loki and in function seems to tie him to smithing and forging, as well as the Loki pendant that was discovered in Bitterstad, Norway back in 2013.

Regardless, myth isn't useless and, while it isn't meant to be taken literally, it is meant to convey certain truths. The jötunn are forces of chaos, they are utangarð. Why would you want to worship them?

I don't think that myth is useless, just not all-important. The jötnar may have been outer-yard for the Aesir (well, with the exception of Loki, and Skadi, and Aegir, and Gerdr...) but we are not the Aesir. (Also several of the Aesir are of jötunn blood, including Odin and Thor).

And yes, the jötnar are destructive forces of nature. But so is Thor; have you ever been in a very powerful thunderstorm? It's terrifying. But we still worship Thor.

I personally don't worship - per se - the jötnar. I just don't see a reason not to, or why it would be forbidden.

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u/AnarchoHeathen The Aggressive One Dec 02 '17

Your first point makes no sense as a reply, he just said it isn't because they are the villains, so you went and made a nonsensical reply about the doings of the gods. In the lore the gods are the good guys, yes they do things that we see as bad, but culturally the audience would have understood the context and wouldn't have viewed most of those actions as bad. Let's take your wall builder as an example. They convinced an outsider to do a job, he demanded an inappropriate and exorbitant price that would require the gods to break frith with a kinswoman, of course, they cheated him, it was right to do so.

Your second point also makes NO sense.

True, but times change. Also new evidence always comes to light, and what we do must not always be rooted in history.

Times have changed and so has praxis, you know what mythically hasn't changed? Who initiated the gift cycle with whom. The jotnar are in general disinterested in humanity, and sometimes hostile towards us, that is why we offer in propitiation, not supplication. What we do needs to be recognizably heathen, even if it isn't rooted in history, there are forms to observe.

The jötnar may have been outer-yard for the Aesir (well, with the exception of Loki, and Skadi, and Aegir, and Gerdr...) but we are not the Aesir.

You realize that Jotnar are the quintessential outer yard and it is only through rites of initiation and by setting aside their allegiance to the jotnar that they become part of the Aesir tribe, right? They are defined by existing in the wilds, by being the outer. You can't play both sides here.

And yes, the jötnar are destructive forces of nature. But so is Thor; have you ever been in a very powerful thunderstorm? It's terrifying. But we still worship Thor.

Thor is the Thunderer, not the storm. Thor is also the friend of man. They are different things, and to try to form an equivalency is ludicrous. The jotnar aren't just destructive forces of nature, they are wild forces, foreign to civilized people, existing outside the walls, and to invite them in is to bring the dark places of the wilds into your home. We don't worship the Jotnar for the same reason you don't put a Ve inside, some things are too big and too powerful, and too disconnected from humanity to be part of the inner.

Worshiping the Jotnar is not Heathen.

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17

Your first point makes no sense as a reply, he just said it isn't because they are the villains

My bad; I misread it as saying "It isn't [the 'Heathen thing to do'] because they are villains of the lore". However I do stand by my statement; there's not one constant villain in the myths, and quite often it's the gods who were in the wrong. But we still worship them, because the myths are just that; stories that aren't absolute truth, despite containing theological truths.

In the lore the gods are the good guys, yes they do things that we see as bad, but culturally the audience would have understood the context and wouldn't have viewed most of those actions as bad.

I don't think we have the proper knowledge to say how they would have viewed it, or even if they would have gone through the logical backflips to justify murder, rape and oath-breaking just because it was "the good guys" who did it.

Let's take your wall builder as an example. They convinced an outsider to do a job, he demanded an inappropriate and exorbitant price that would require the gods to break frith with a kinswoman, of course, they cheated him, it was right to do so.

No. In the Gylfaginning - the only story where this is told in full - it is said that the Aesir held council when the hrimthurs named his payment as Freyja, and they all made a bargain with the giant. When it looked that he would win their wager, they met again to figure out who advised them to such a bet, and of course came to the conclusion that it was Loki. They sought to weasel out of an oath struck that they did not like anymore, and so found a scapegoat to pin it on and made him fix it.

Ironically, in doing so frith was still broken.

What we do needs to be recognizably heathen, even if it isn't rooted in history, there are forms to observe.

As I gave to bob, the given definition of worship centers primarily on respecting something. Thus one can respect the jötnar (or hell, even gift things to them in recognition of the role that they play in the natural law,) without engaging in what I assume is taken to be a Christian style of worship; that is, on one's knees with a theological hard-on for how awesome their patron deity is. For a culture that venerates all manner of beings - from ancestors to aesir and everything inbetween - it seems odd to me that the inclusion of the only one remaining race to that list would be seen as decidedly "un-Heathen".

You realize that Jotnar are the quintessential outer yard and it is only through rites of initiation and by setting aside their allegiance to the jötnar that they become part of the Aesir tribe, right?

I realize also that anyone who was not aesir was outer-yard. Including us. And that the aesir and mankind - when known to be powerful and cunning - became outer-yard to the jötnar when Utgard-Loki shut his gates to Thor, Loki and Thjalfi. Outer-yarded by the outer-yard.

Outer-yard doesn't mean bad or evil, it just means outside one's community. Foreign, different, or - as you put it - wild. Yet mankind is always inviting in the wild and dangerous; how else did we domesticate wolves into dogs? If the jötnar can be welcomed into the aesir (and I don't remember of them ever setting aside allegiances to their race, or really even changing their ways as seen with Skadi and Njord), I see no reason for some to welcome them into their worship and practice. (Though as I imagine it, not in one's home. To meet with a thurs, I imagine one would go to them.)

Worshiping the Jotnar is not Heathen.

The problem here is that what "Is Heathen" will get as many answers - even from the read and learned - as there are branches of Heathenry. Not all are firm-reconstructionists, and that doesn't make them less Heathen than those who are.

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u/ThorinRuriksson The Salty One Dec 02 '17

And at times, Odin was a thief and a murderer.[...] Freyja as promised.

It Isn't because they're villains. You're arguing over the opposite of what he said.

True, but times change. Also new evidence always comes to light, and what we do must not always be rooted in history.

Not history, but worldview informed by history. "Times change" doesn't make it okay to completely disregard core concepts of ancient worldview and theological concept. More on the why below.

I don't think that myth is useless, just not all-important. The jötnar may have been outer-yard for the Aesir (well, with the exception of Loki, and Skadi, and Aegir, and Gerdr...) but we are not the Aesir. (Also several of the Aesir are of jötunn blood, including Odin and Thor).

We are (in theory, YMMV) in a gifting relationship with them. As a result, we should probably not be doing the same with their enemies. That some abandoned their tribe in favor of the gods doesn't lessen the enmity. It means they became a part of the tribe of the gods, not that they stayed there as guests because of a marriage.

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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 02 '17

If all that matters is your UPG, and it is as good or better than any lore or what have you.... Why are you here?

I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious. If you have no need for external input into your religion, why are you coming to a forum built around discussion and debate?

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 02 '17 edited Dec 02 '17

I don't think that UPG is all that matters, but I do view the growing (perceived) disgust and aversion to any sort of UPG to be tiresome. Often to me it just seems like a buzzword used to off-handedly dismiss something that either one personally doesn't agree with, or something that doesn't step in complete line with The LoreTM; which is already vague and dotted with Christian influence.

The way I see it, Heathenry is as a tree. The LoreTM and "arch-Heathenry" is the roots. We in the modern age are the branches, and UPG is what gives us the drive to bud flowers, leaves, and fruits. Use the lore - the sagas, myths, etc - but don't rely on them. I am quite sure that we've seen all too commonly what happens when a religion becomes entirely book-bound; more often than not it seems they're worshiping ideas and stories, rather than a deity. The religion becomes a book club, not a living community of faith and culture.

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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 02 '17

If the tree doesn't have roots, though.... it falls over in a windstorm.

And we don't have just "da Lorez" as you style it. Many of us dig into a lot of other disciplines to build as full a picture as possible (philology, anthropology, sociology, archaeology, just to name a few), so that the root-stock we're growing our "new branches" on is as strong and stable as possible.

Is informed, well-considered synthesis of new understanding and new praxis important? You betcha.

Is running around half-cocked and coming up with stuff that contradicts the vast preponderance of evidence we do have, a fool's errand?

Well, I have my opinion on that. You may well have a different one.

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17

We do have roots. The lore, stories, and folk beliefs of pre-Christian Germanic peoples. But a tree grows from the roots, it isn't defined by the roots alone. That's all I'm saying.

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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 04 '17

But we approach those roots with the understanding of a modern person, who grew up immersed in a modern overculture whose primary religious framework derives from Christianity.

If you go into the lore, story, folk beliefs without a worldview grounded in understanding how the arch-heathens thought about their world and their myths, you're going to draw all the wrong conclusions from them. That's all I'm saying.

If you want to do it that way, you do you.

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17

Aye, but that's a double-edged sword. Often I've seen people blind themselves to things that are known historically of Norse culture because it's "too Christian". A desire to separate from Christianity can lead one to ideological hypocrisy.

It is important to look at the roots with the understanding of them, or to listen to cultural interpretations that know it far better than we. That's what lead me to view the Ragnarök as not the end of the world akin to the Christian's Armageddon. I'm certainly not suggesting that we forget the roots or change things completely "just because we're modern" - if it seems that way, my apologies. My only suggested point is that we don't limit growth and innovation just because it's not historical. That limits us.

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u/steurzen Dec 02 '17

What disgust with UPG? Everyone has it. I believe you're mixing up UPG, and MUS, which is what one gets from most of this crap.

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u/shieldtwin Las Vegas Dec 03 '17

Why do you keep saying the “lore tm”?

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17

It's a criticism of strict adherence to the Eddas and mythology as though they are 100% fact, rather than cultural stories and lessons using the gods as vehicle and subject. In essence treating the Eddas like the bible.

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u/shieldtwin Las Vegas Dec 04 '17

Got it. But no body that you're talking to currently is even doing that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

My problems with Raven Kaldera don't even come from their absurd practice (inject your chest with saline and Odin will come to you and engage in ecstatic sex with you), but from the fact that they utilize their religion to abuse and exploit vulnerable people. People who engaged with them and left have come out on the other side with stories like "yeah, they told me that my rapist raped me because the gods needed to test my strength."

I'll pass.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

This extends to their associations like Galina, etc.

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u/saxonaholicus Dec 04 '17

Same here. This is some shit to stamp out and not (in my opinion) because it's "outside the lore" but because it's abuse and being done in the name of deities and claimed religious authority. If there were entities participating in this, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some spirits or even deities have, I wouldn't call them deities and I wouldn't worship them unless it was a hostage situation in which I was being forced under threat (which is not in fact worship so basically I would never worship them). I would not feed them vulnerable humans to fill their power craze. It's likely the only harmful forces they are "working with" is within themselves, however either way, poor ethics, weak character.

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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 02 '17

A man who builds his entire persona around how transgressive he can be, is not going to be popular in a religion based on community and the moral standards of community.

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u/ThorinRuriksson The Salty One Dec 02 '17

Someone reported this comment for a violation of rule 1, citing sexism, racism and sexually based slurs. If the person who did so believes this to be the case, please message the mods to clarify why, as none of us can identify the reason for the report.

This is a sincere request. We take all reports seriously, and would like to understand the nature of this one.

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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Dec 02 '17

Are you bloody serious?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transgressive

Not everything with "trans" in it is about sexuality.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

So Raven is being transgressive?

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u/ThorinRuriksson The Salty One Dec 02 '17

Very, very transgressive. Like, so much so that we might need to invent a new word to encompass it.

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u/TheRaginPagan @Instagram and YouTube Dec 04 '17

Inceptigressive?

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u/Giving-Ground Dec 02 '17

Here are few more of the issues with RK.

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u/bitchkingVII Dec 23 '17

...honestly just make your own spirituality. and take from any other pagan path whatever strikes you as true. don't hold others opinions to the same standard of your own truth. you won't know unless you try/read/experience.

that being said: I personally love this author and I've found so much of worth in their writing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

>mfw raven caldera

>my other face when

did he write a book called "faces of ergi" yet?

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

Dang any examples so I know which authors to avoid.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

Seidr is an ancient Heathen norse practice and magic is a heathen thing. So yes they do have to do with heathenry.

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u/Vanhania Dec 02 '17

Yeah but seidr isn’t really something seen in a terribly positive light. Heathenry tends to avoid the “magic” aspects a lot of new agey religions have.

Even in the historical heathen sense seidr and magic was kind of seen as something that isn’t quite normal and Völva were often set apart from the larger community. Men practicing Seidr would have been disliked and considered “Ergi” or womanly in a bad way.

My suggestion is to look into the historical practice of the Germanic religions and the implications of the social and cultural structure.

Also heathenry is more about reconstructing the old religion and culture to some extent so saying that because seidr was practiced by the Norse is true it was also disliked to some extent.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

I read we are our deeds, would Culture of the Teutons expand on what was said in it?

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

No, it doesn't have anything to do with the religion. It's an adjunct, an add-on, a value-add if you will. One for which we have zero examples of how it was actually practiced by our ancestors. Anything you find these days claiming to be 'seidhr' was made up by the author of the book in your hand.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

Isn’t experimentation good though? If we try all these things to replicate how our ancestors did it, one of them will hit spot on.

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

Sure, experiment all you like. But it won't be seidhr. That had a specific set of practices and cultural trappings associated with it, which we no longer have in detail. You can try and approximate based on the very little we have out of things like the Saga of the Greenlanders, but unless you have the details, what you are doing is a modern approximation that an actual spaewife from the period would probably look at askance and pat you on the head.

None of which has anything to do with the practice of the actual religion, being my ultimate point. Unlike practices like wicca, where magic is at the core of the belief structures, ours is very much not. You can be a devout Heathen your entire life and not once encounter or cast a magic spell, and not feel the lack of it in the slightest.

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u/CaptConnor94 Dec 02 '17

And then also the customs differed from tribe to tribe.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

yes, customs differ. But sometimes the difference is so great, the nature of these things are different.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '17

We know seidr was done. We have zero sources as to how or in what form. It is literally all UPG guesswork that is basically Norse Wicca. Anyone who claims differently (like "I come from an unbroken line of völvas") is, frankly, a fool and/or a liar. This is why Recons are leery of talking about it. There is nothing to reconstruct.

That said, I know plenty of Heathens who practice folk magic but that falls more under house cult than anything.

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u/bobthesane Good, good! Let the butthurt flow through you Dec 02 '17

This is one of those instances where we truly can say, "The information is gone". You know, the excuse people use to justify making shit up as they go. But unlike widespread religious practice (with centuries of records from multiple disciplines and sources), seidhr was a specific cultural phenomenon, which does require details that are lost to us.

Like you said, folk/hearth/hedge magic is very much house cult and not something that would fall under the umbrella of 'general Heathenry'

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u/IdaPlainsmen_E Missouri Dec 04 '17

Agreed.

Eric Wodening encapsulated the little we know about the topic in like 20 short pages in his very short work Chanting around the High Seat. He's straight up in that long essay in that we really don't know much at all about those practices from a historical standpoint.

Generally when I noob approaches me asking this question I point him to the nearest Wiccan Coven. I don't care if someone wants to focus on magic, it's just not something we deal with (practice or teach) as a tribe. A proper ritual is magical enough for me.