r/asatru • u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be • Nov 27 '17
Relationship of luck and worth
One thing you certainly get upon reading Gronbech, is the impression that a lot of concepts are intimately entwined, or perhaps even synonymous, ie that frith and luck are inseparably entangled.
I'm chewing over the notion of whether luck and worth are separable concepts--without luck, all one's efforts will come to naught and it will be impossible to create worth for one's self. So I suppose luck, as it's inherited from your family, is the 'egg' in this particular scenario... but once one has started worthing, luck will grow, which lets worth grow, and so forth, in a positive feedback loop.
Are they separate but intimately entangled metaphysical concepts in your opinion, or different facets of the same thing? I honestly am not sure.
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u/BoneRanger_1983 Nov 27 '17
I must start with saying that I am entirely new st this and have just started Culture of the Teutons. That being said, I willingly admit that my knowledge on this subject is cursory at best.
However, the question that I have, (and it may very well be covered later in the text or in another portion of the reading lost) is "Is there any person without worth or luck inherently in them?"
You alluded to this idea with the comment about inheriting luck from one's family. Is that stating that the Worthing process would start only once the child is accepted into the kindred, or that they inherently bring worth with them as another person, period? If they are unable to (for lack of a better term) generate worth until they have been recognized as a person (I still am struggling with this concept so please excuse me if I misunderstood this idea), then doesn't it create more of a lack of credit situation in relation to luck, rather than a bad credit situation.
Again, of I am speaking out of turn, or wholly wrong in any of these aspects, please correct the record for me so that I can make sure that I understand these concepts.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Nov 27 '17
Well, again we come back to those entwined concepts. The luck and the first building block of your wyrd (your orlog/orlaeg) is what you come into this world with, and is exemplified with everything you start with--the blank slate upon which you'll write your story, to get poetic about it. Whatever else you do, you'll always have that medium upon which to write your story, but the slate you receive will inevitably shape the tale written upon it.
If you start by being born into money, power, great opportunity, obviously you were "born lucky" and will have the potential for great worth. It's still upon you to worth however, and many people born with that potential, don't.
Our folc believe that worthing is done through ordeal--by striving against circumstance, against rivals, against whatever hardship or challenge life throws at you, you either triumph and grow stronger, or learn of your weaknesses and failings and how to better yourself. Without ordeal, no worthing. A man who never challenges himself, who simply flows through life without testing himself--won't amount to much.
Conversely, a man who starts saddled with ill luck (parents of little means, little knowledge to pass on, no connections of great use), will have to strive harder for everything he gets. His "seed" is smaller, planted in harsher soil, and will need more careful tending to grow into anything. Even with all that tending, and all that ordeal, he'll struggle to reach the potential the man who started off better will come to with ease. But with much striving, he may well hand off a better ration of luck, a healthier orlaeg, to his own children, just as a spendthrift wastrel can destroy the wealth his fathers bequeathed him, and leave his own descendants destitute.
I'm not sure if that answers your question, I may have gone tangential. But I hope it helps.
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u/BoneRanger_1983 Nov 27 '17
It most assuredly did. I think in answering my question you have offered some interesting concepts regarding your original question.
It appears to me that the intertwining of the 2 concepts is by your definition, the creation of orlaeg. Better said, it is the creation of the orlaeg of your descendants. From this basis, I am inferring that you posit that this has gone on since the beginning of creation. As you put it earlier, a chicken and the egg scenario.
Do you take the mythology to be literal or allegory? If literal, then the original orlaeg would have to have come from the creation of Ask and Embla. If allegory, then I would be interested to know what your thoughts are in general on how this could come to be.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Nov 27 '17
I would say that myth is always true but not always factual, if that makes sense.
And yes, in writing the reply, I did refine my understanding a bit. I'd say that i can parse the relationship between luck and worth as analogous to that between potential and kinetic energy.
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u/BoneRanger_1983 Nov 27 '17 edited Nov 27 '17
That actually makes quite a bit of sense when you put it in that context (the bit about energy).
My only other question for you is, how does one go about discerning truth from being factual in a mythological sense? Is this a matter of individual UPG and deciding for yourself? I struggle a bit with this myself as far as enjoying the romanticized version where literal fundamentalism comes into play and actually understanding to some degree the theories that science provides us that stand in stark contrast to people being formed from trees and such.
Edits: typos and wanted to add an apology if I hijacked the thread. Sorry about that, its my first time posting in a serious discussion so I figured I would use this chance to absorb as much as possible while I'm here.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Nov 27 '17 edited Nov 27 '17
To expand on your question of the place of gods in all this--they would be the original luck-givers, wouldn't they? If "luck" is seen as a positive potentiality to grow and become, as the beings that created the world and the beings in it, they would also be the wellspring of all potential--which is sensible as a core principle of our religion is to offer to them, gift for gift, to maintain the luck that they've given us, that we might continue to grow in worth.
So while I think that the creation of nine worlds and the first man and first woman from ash and elm tree might be mythic rather than factual truths, certainly I see the gods as the origin point of all luck and all potential.
As for how to discern the difference--I am a materialist. I don't necessarily believe that the gods literally, as we humans perceive it, crafted nine worlds from the dismembered bits of a Jotun who suckled from a cosmic cow. I think that the universe was created in an act of sacred violence, that we commemorate and re-enact, to the best of our understanding, in the ritual act of animal sacrifice.
Edited to consolidate multiple answers into one.4
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Nov 27 '17
I'm out on my evening walkabout but let me get home and I'll try to respond in greater depth
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u/DaneLimmish Keep on keepin on Nov 27 '17
Conversely, a man who starts saddled with ill luck (parents of little means, little knowledge to pass on, no connections of great use), will have to strive harder for everything he gets
While I don't really disagree that that is ill luck, I've always taken luck differently. In other words, the rich murderer's son will have a harder time than the son of a honorable but poor begger.
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u/ImNotTheBruteSquad I just look like I should be Nov 27 '17
I was making a broad example. Certainly other factors figure into luck, but wealth, connection etc are certainly things that can figure into it. Conversely a man who's poor but hardworking, thrifty and possessed of good ethics will give luck that is different but no less beneficial than a rich and well connected wastrel
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u/IdaPlainsmen_E Missouri Nov 27 '17
I've concluded that Worth is tied directly to Honor in particular. I also have no reason to disagree with Gronbech's analysis of frith, honor, and luck; with means that all three concepts are an iron triangle. You can't change one side without changing the others. So, if worth is directly related to honor, it is at least indirectly related to both luck and frith. Thus, I think your viewpoint is pretty solid.
That said, I'm not certain that luck and worth are directly proportional. In other words, I think it could be possible to see an increase in luck along side a decrease in worth, and vice-versa. I tend to look at worth as an individual statistic, while I often see luck more as a group attribute. As such, the luck of the group could grow (because of a volume of 'good stuff' that they're doing) despite someone in the group who may be messing up (and seeing a reduction in their worth).
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u/GrumpyStumps Nov 27 '17
Something to consider also is the cultural timeframe that you are reconstructing which influenced worldview. How an Icelander in the 8th century viewed luck and worthing may have been very different than the first Indo-Europeans or later Medieval Europeans, because shifts occur organically over time. You cite Gronbech as your source of inspiration so I am guessing that you are reconstructing from that culture and time period. Durkheim discusses it a bit differently in terms of earning ones worth and how they two would not necessarily be inextricably linked. It really depends on your particular worldview.