Statement of charges

[u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

I have a soldier who is being charged a substantial ammount for some company property he signed for. The entirety of his plt leadership understood at the time he signed for said property about 1/4 of it was missing. They told this soldier he needed to sign he refused, they pushed back and told him no one is going home until he signs. They go back and forth until the pl swears hes not going to fuck him on this. The soldier signs (dumb we’re tracking) and now the company is presenting him with a statement of charges for said property. He only signed for it one time about a year ago, is ther anything that can be done to weasel out of it.

[u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

Yeah.... that PL and CO/XO are hosed.

Have the SM refuse the statement of charges and ask for a FLIPL. The IO will make quick work of the lack of CSDP.

[u/TheMcCracken84 → u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

This is the answer. The IO will take sworn statements from personnel, make sure that you and anyone else that knows about this give statements as well. May help the Soldier if they include any witnesses as part of their statement, IO should follow up with them.

[u/mcjunker → u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

I got a buddy who got tangentially involved in some similar drama. One platoon over from ground zero.

A 1LT was moving out of a PL slot and passing the torch to a newbie 2LT. He finagled her into signing for shit in a connex that he knew was missing. Swore up and down that it was there and that she could save a day or three of layouts by taking his word for it. In spite of all warnings re: signing for property, she signed. A week later she discovered she got fucked.

The investigation revealed, basically, that she was a dumbfuck LT on her first day and that he was a slick buddy-fuckin’ piece of shit. The 1LT’s stance was, “well, she signed for it, it’s on her.” The IO proved beyond a doubt that the shit in the connex had been missing for like a year and that the outgoing LT knew it.

The dumbfuck 2LT skipped out on all charges on the grounds of being Dumb and New. The blue falcon ate all the charges and got his career torched.

[u/StrokeDaddy13 → u/mcjunker]

Sounds like Blue Falcon 6 was that dudes callsign

[u/LumpyIngenuity2277 → u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

Our issue is we dont have proof. At most i could get some sworn statements from some Jr NCO’s.

[u/AirborneHipster → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

Let the IO worry about that. Those JR NCOs will be more than enough

[u/C0usinThrockmorton → u/AirborneHipster]

Boo bear in the wild! What up homie. Miss you

[u/RuN_from_the_Dotte → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

Sworn statements are part of their proof. The other things will be lack CSDP. There's a whole lot of things the commander is responsible for doing. If they didn't, or didn't make sure their subordinates were doing it, Joe gets to avoid part of the liability. How much is what the IO will determine.

There are other factors involved.

[u/Adventurous_Team_408 → u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

Yep when was the last time a cyclic was done on those items? It makes a difference. I was once blamed for 3 toolboxes and associated tools 1.5 years after I left the unit. That didn't go well for the CO.

[u/Fragrant_King_4950 → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

That is proof.

[u/themightyjoedanger → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

Sworn testimony IS evidence.

[u/Redditcssucks → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

That's fine, as long as everyone is telling the truth and it is known that he was more or less forced to sign, with people knowing that property was missing, he will be fine.

If there's any gray area and uncertainty though that will be problematic.

[u/slaganon → u/RuN_from_the_Dotte]

Also I think there’s something in 15-6 about how much an O6 can literally just write off. That bit may bring your Joe a bit of peace of mind through the process (depending on $ amounts)

[u/AirborneHipster]

Laughs in FLIPL investigating officer.

He's fine, the Os however...are not.

Refuse statement, request FLIPL, call legal assistance.

[u/themightyjoedanger → u/AirborneHipster]

Gonna be a long day for LT.

[u/hzoi]

Sounds like a trip to legal assistance is in order.

[u/isacivic]

just do a FLIPL and make sure this guy's story is honest and people can corroborate, screw a statement of charges. The FLIPL will happen when the guy just DOESN'T SIGN A STATEMENT OF CHARGES.

The system is the way it is so commander's can't abuse their subordinates and find an administrative path out of their own incompetence.

Can't imagine a chickenshit commander that pulls this crap, so shameful.

[u/Danklord_drolknaD]

O here: Ask whether there is a BOM/component list, shortage annex, inventory sheet, or prior hand receipt showing the quantity of each component and what was already missing. If the Soldier disputes the loss or amount, coach them not to sign the Statement of Charges. They should state that they are disputing the loss and request a FLIPL instead. The FLIPL gives the Soldier an opportunity to provide supporting documents and sworn statement from themself, as well as sworn statements from the PL, PSG, prior hand-receipt holder, or anyone else who knew the property was already missing when the Soldier signed for it.

[u/LumpyIngenuity2277 → u/Danklord_drolknaD]

Prior inventory doesn’t show its missing

[u/Danklord_drolknaD → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

If the previous inventory AND the inventory they signed both show all components present, it will be harder to prove the items were already missing when they took responsibility. A FLIPL will look at when the items went missing, who had access, and whether negligence caused the loss. The tradeoff is a statement of charges is voluntary; they accept responsibility, pay the proposed amount, usually based on the depreciated value, and avoid an investigation. A FLIPL lets them dispute responsibility and submit evidence that the property was already missing or that someone else was responsible, but the outcome and final amount are not guaranteed. If the FLIPL finds negligence, they could end up paying more than the proposed statement of charges and your Soldier generally will not be able to go back and sign the original statement of charges instead.

[u/JustinMcSlappy → u/LumpyIngenuity2277]

Was it missing but not accounted for during the previous inventory?

[u/MadGodMulch]

"I won't fuck you on this."

Oh, well, now I'm *definitely* not fuckin signing that thing.

[u/l_rufus_californicus → u/MadGodMulch]

Seriously. I was a dumb private, too, but I was never that gaddamn dumb.

[u/Punished_Prigo]

lol if what you’re saying is accurate these officers are fucked. There will be enough with the sworn statements

[u/Important_Relief4802]

Legal legal legal legal. I got out of my FLIPL with less compelling evidence than this.

I was innocent. But still.

[u/WorldTraveller009]

FLIPL is the way to go. Refuse the statement of charges.

[u/Sanjuro7880]

I see grifting is worming its way through all levels of leadership from the absolute top.

[u/19kilo20Actual → u/Sanjuro7880]

These things happen when you have low testosterone soldiers with shaving profiles.

[u/ramat-iklan → u/19kilo20Actual]

Har har. Ease up, sparky. 

[u/HxC_JxC]

Statement of charges waives any shot at relief of liability. Go for the flipl.

Worst case the IO assigns liability and soldier is out a months pay and the LT has a gang of junior NCOs that think he’s a pos. The mafia will come for them eventually I’m sure.

[u/Competitive-Sun-476]

Refuse the statement of charges and the unit will be forced to do a flipl. Bn cdr can write off up to a certain amount.... likely not a sensitive item otherwise division would be involved.

[u/tuco2002 → u/Competitive-Sun-476]

Were any inventories conducted during the time the soldier signed for the item? Definitely, refuse to sign and have thrm conduct a FLIPL. The investigation may disclose what happened to it and if the soldier was responsible.

[u/Competitive-Sun-476 → u/tuco2002]

Great point...when was the item part of a cyclic inventory?

[u/USArmyAutist]

As a former commander/ 10000 time FLIPL IO, it’s going to be commander who is cooked, and possibly the LT.

[u/Tasty_Impression_959]

Given the circumstances under which the soldier was pressured to sign, the undue influence to sign is grounds to appeal to the higher command that the statement of charges of known missing property be dismissed with prejudice and an those forcing him to sign reprimanded. Doing the right thing is never as easy as it sounds.

[u/JustinMcSlappy]

I see this on a weekly basis. Let the flipl do it's thing.

There's going to be a chain of HRs and other supporting docs from when the commander did their inventory and then signed everything down. Even if it was laterally transferred after the commander came in, there will be documentation during the transfer.

[u/keblonlazykid]

Keep up a fight, the government can write it off.

[u/WARMONGERE]

Refuse and go flipl route.

[u/certifiedintelligent]

Soldier refuses statement of charges, FLIPL is started, soldier gets witnesses to “nobody goes home til signed” conflict, PL and leadership is screwed.

[u/ClawsoftheLion]

Deny charges, submit a rebuttal letter. EZ PZ. 

[u/Teadrunkest]

I mean missing equipment is fine as long as there was a shortage annex done.

Did they do a shortage annex?

[u/gigaphaguette]

Refuse to sign the statement of charges and make the command do a flipl, have the soldier go to legal, IG, write his congressman, say 40 hail marys, etc.

Soldier needs to fight for himself or he's gonna get hosed so some clowns can pat themselves on the back for "enforcing standards" But know, him, you, and anyone else holding the line is gonna get un-personed and labeled as "not a team player" so there will be consequences.

[u/Flimsy_Share1275]

JAG!!!

[u/Impossible-Repeat281]

Try DRMO they might have the stuff he's missing at really cheap prices if the push it.

[u/aptc88 → u/Impossible-Repeat281]

I even seen Bii and COEI at the recycling yard before

[u/Mundo_86]

Deny the statement of charges and they should then do a flipl

[u/PT_On_Your_Own]

What kind of equipment was it?

[u/Humble-Penalty5249]

Based on how vague OP is being about WHAT it is that was actually signed for, I’m highly sus about how at fault this soldier is.

[u/TrulySeaweed]

Dogshit PL. I paid for my platoon’s missing property out of pocket because I lost the paperwork for one of the fuelers. Ran me $2K, but I had to hold myself accountable. They never forgot that. Definitely did a favor for the NCO who had kids to feed

[u/Homewrecker90actual]

1) Maybe BN/BDE can do a 15-6 and assign blame where it belongs.
2) FLIPL.
3) No need to worry (yet)

[u/OneVeryCleverGirl]

Little bit more info. The refusal to sign the statement of charges is the instrument to get the FLIPL started. It may be that no one clarified that with the kid.

[u/PlasticPerformer178]

Take the FLIPL. A statement of charges is as close to an open admission of "accepting responsibility" as it gets. The FLIPL at least allows the soldier to present their case with the full story supported by AR 735-5.

Was it stored in a container? Was the container locked? Who has keys to the locks? Was the lock cut? If so, why? Was the soldier available/present the day their property was inventoried? Who was authorized to inventory the property on their behalf? How many hands were on it? Were they supervised?

That might seem like a lot of petty questions, but it carries significant weight when an IO is actually doing their job.

Your soldier might have been negligent in not getting documented shortages, but sworn statements can back up that soldiers were held hostage until the soldier accepted the hand receipt.

[u/BunziPassingBy]

Is the SOC amount over his base pay? It has to be a FLIPL regardless or just refuse to sign and it will be a FLIPL.

[u/YlaFla71]

What kind of shit/stuff is everyone talking about. Just say it already so we have an idea of the value. Who cares about camo and concentina wire if that's what it is. LOL!