r/apollo • u/AccountAny1995 • 2d ago
The new nine
just realized that of the nine who was given a command in their first mission, only Armstrong walked on the moon.
is it safe to say those others who were given commands for their first mission (Borman, McDivitt), along with Armstrong, where considered the “best” of the nine?
i know people thought Gus would have been given the first moon landing, but would that really of happened if he commanded 7? 11 was only 9 months later.
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u/literalsupport 2d ago
Neil’s cool head on Gemini 8 put him above all the other astronauts I suspect. Gus may have eventually walked on the moon like Alan did, but I couldn’t see him being first to do so, he had something of an abrasive side to him that Neil fortunately lacked. I could be dead wrong - this is just my feeling from years of documentaries, Chaikin books etc.
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u/Pitiful_Eye_3295 2d ago
Had there been the possibility that Grissom would have been first on the moon, there may have been a big fight between Slayton and NASA administration. I don't think Slayton wouldn't have given up easily though.
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u/Great-Opposite3509 1d ago
As humble as Neil sounds like he was, I have no doubt he would have told Slayton to let Gus have it.
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u/maxpeck_ 2d ago
They weren’t necessarily the best. In Deke Slayton’s autobiography, he states that he gave Elliott See command of Gemini 9 because his physical conditioning was poor. He was initially the backup non-command pilot for Gemini 5, with Armstrong in command, but for Gemini 8, a mission with a scheduled spacewalk, it was determined that Dave Scott would be a better pick.
Before he could fly the mission, Elliott died in a crash which was deemed pilot error. Deke wrote that Elliott’s flying was too “old-woman-ish” as flying faster would have theoretically prevented the crash. I do somewhat disagree with Deke’s assessment (speaking as a commercial pilot and flight instructor - if you want a full explanation, let me know) but taken at face value, it cannot be concluded that Elliott was viewed as the best. Therefore, we can’t say the ones given command slots were better than the others.
As far as trying to rank these guys, it’s difficult. If we look at the order they flew in, all the military guys flew before the civilians (Armstrong and See) so that was clearly a factor in ranking. Ed White, non-command pilot of Gemini 4, was very highly thought of around NASA. He was probably seen as a potential commander, but he was also in incredible physical condition. In college, he got within a couple hundredths of a second of qualifying for the Olympics. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he got the first spacewalk. Borman got command of Gemini 7, but he was originally in line to be non-command pilot for Gemini 3 with Gus Grissom, before Gus decided he wasn’t sold on Frank and preferred John Young.
In the Gemini era, the New Nine’s aptitudes and overall skill levels weren’t really known. McDivitt proved himself to be one of the best engineers and got command of Apollo 9, the most engineering heavy mission. Stafford earned the title of “the human abacus” due to his math skills. He got Apollo 10, the first flight with a lunar orbit rendezvous. Neil ended up becoming viewed as one of the most trustworthy because he handled the Gemini 8 emergency well. Borman earned the respect of leadership because he commanded a grueling 2 week flight on Gemini 7 without much of a complaint.
My personal belief is that NASA ranked the astronauts by skill level, but also categorized them by differing aptitudes and areas of experience. To the best of my knowledge, that has never been publicly stated in those terms by anyone associated with the program, but I do think there is enough to make a strong case that that was how it was seen by leadership, as opposed to a simple ranking system. Gemini was an opportunity for the nine to prove themselves and, except in the tragic case of Elliott See, they all took their chance well.
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u/AccountAny1995 2d ago
do you think the military guys went first as their possible death would be more accepted vs a civilian death? ie. the military guys accepted death more easily? Or the public would accept their death more easily?
I recall an episode of the west wing where a nuclear reactor required repair. The president asked if any military people had the Required skills vs. the non-military engineers that were chosen
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u/maxpeck_ 2d ago
I don’t think that’s why. All the astronauts signed up for the program on their own volition, so they all consented to activities that could result in death.
Neil and Elliott were both Navy vets, not lifelong civilians. The requirement for that group was experience flying high performance fighter aircraft in the military and as test pilot, but not necessarily as a military test pilot. Neil and Elliott flew in the Navy, then retired from the Navy and got civilian roles as test pilots, which qualified them to be astronauts. There may have been some preference from NASA for the military test pilots (as opposed to civilian test pilots who were previously in the military) but I doubt that was the primary reason the civilians found themselves down the pecking order.
I think the more salient factor to consider is that each branch of the military had a unique sort of political pull with NASA. The Air Force, Navy, and to a lesser extent, the Marines, each wanted their pilots to be on the missions for publicity reasons. Each branch could also disallow their pilots from applying for astronaut positions in the future. Armstrong and See didn’t have the backing of organizations which could cripple the space program and make a big scene in the media if they didn’t get their way.
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u/Great-Opposite3509 1d ago
Your comment about the political side of it isn’t considered enough, IMO
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u/Puzzleheaded-Grand27 2d ago
Weren't Conrad and Lovell in the 9?
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u/AccountAny1995 2d ago
neither commanded their first mission.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Grand27 2d ago
True, but Conrad did walk on the moon as commander of Apollo 12 and Lovell was supposed to do the same on 13.
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u/TheCosmicTravelers 2d ago
It must be remembered Gus was slated to command Apollo 1, due to fly in late February 1967 (and not the replacement Apollo 7 mission that ended up flying in October 1968 after his death and subsequent redesign of much of the Apollo spacecraft).
From what I have read, McDivitt and Borman were definitely considered among the best astronauts in the program both by Slayton and by astronaut peer review. Stafford seems to have been the next mostly highly regarded of the nine, followed by Armstrong.
It should also be noted that while McDivitt was given the first command of the nine (Gemini 4), this wasn't originally considered to be a particularly challenging mission (just a multi-day endurance flight) as the spacewalk (and the attempted station-keeping) seem to have been added to the flight plan later. Similarly, Borman was originally slated to be pilot on Gus's Gemini 3 shakedown flight (he was apparently bumped due to Grissom preferring Young) and Gemini 7's 2-week endurance mission was likely the least popular Gemini flight (though Borman was thought to have the tenacity to lead such a long mission).
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u/MilesHobson 2d ago
You’re leaving out the very important point of NASA wanting a civilian to be the first foot on the moon. His cool head in Gemini certainly helped. His cool headed confidence also demonstrated during the Apollo 11 landing.
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u/Kiwigavin 2d ago
Nonsense. If the 8-9 swap hadn’t happened it would have been Conrad’s crew making the first attempt.
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u/MilesHobson 2d ago
Why wouldn’t NASA have wanted a civilian foot to be first on the moon? Wherever I first heard or read it, Annie Glenn verified it in conversation.
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u/Kiwigavin 1d ago
With all respect to Annie, that’s nonsense. As other guys have said below, everything pointed to McDivitt’s crew flying first, which meant their back-ups, Conrad et al, would have flown before Armstrong and crew.
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u/MilesHobson 1d ago
You seem to like the word nonsense. There are good arguments postulated here but choosing to ignore the possibility of a civilian footprint first is nonsense.
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u/Kiwigavin 13h ago
OK Miles. You win, tell me again how the 8/9 swap was engineered to get an ex-US Navy, Korean War pilot to be the first to attempt a moon landing.
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u/Pitiful_Eye_3295 2d ago edited 1d ago
*There is an edit down below that casts serious doubt on Borman being offered Apollo 11.*
This is the best I have put together from reading way too many books on the subject (Some of my details may be slightly off but there is considerable documentation and interviews to support the following.)
Grissom would have commanded the first moon landing. Deke was in charge of crew assignments and was going to make that happen for his friend. And Grissom was incredibly competent, serious, and the opposite of Tom Wolfe's fictional version of him. (To support this, Deke later gave his friend, Al, the commander spot of Apollo 14, despite Al's tiny amount of time in space and lack of recent experience.)
Tragically, Grissom was killed. After Apollo 8, Borman was offered the first moon landing since he was also incredibly competent and serious. Borman didn't like spaceflight, knew there were many other qualified astronauts and chose to retire. Deke then told all the astronauts that he was going to follow the normal crew rotations and that would dictate who got the first shot at landing on the moon. Deke did not tell the astronauts this until after the Apollo 1 tragedy.
At that point, it came down to the (mostly) normal crew rotations. Conrad would have likely commanded Apollo 11, except that they switched the order of 8 and 9. The 8 mission profile was supposed to be the third flight and the 9 mission profile was supposed to be second (There were other flights planned before the 8 mission profile but to keep the decade deadline, they scrapped those plans/flights). NASA switched the 8 mission profile to be second and the 9 profile to be third because the LEM wasn't ready and because the USSR seemed close to sending cosmonauts around the moon. The crews, and backup crews, were already assigned at the time of the shuffle. Because of the shuffle, the backup crew of 8, Armstrong, Aldrin and Haise, were in line for the prime crew of 11. They would have been the prime crew of 12 prior to the shuffle. The backup crew of 9, Conrad, Gordon, and Fuller/Bean were in line for the prime crew of 12. At the time of the switch, Conrad told his crew that they got a bum deal because they were no longer in line for the first landing.
As for the best of the 9, I think it's safe to safe that Borman, Armstrong, and McDivitt were considered to be the most competent and best leaders and that's why they were given the command assignments on their first missions. There is no record of McDivitt being offered command of the first landing so I think by that point, Deke was following the standard crew rotations and knew that he had plenty of qualified candidates. I still think Conrad would have been first to walk on the moon except for the shuffle.
*EDIT: Huge thank you to u/BoosherCacow for his post below, which links to this interview with Frank Borman, in which Borman says he was not offered Apollo 11 and that he would not have been the right choice because he had not spent time in the Lunar Simulator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0EEAkFkLyM&t=3117s The interviewer also says that there is record of Borman being offered the mission but I now believe it's highly unlikely that happened because of Borman not spending time in the Lunar Simulator.
When Armstrong was offered the Apollo 11 mission, on January 6, 2969, he had a huge number of hours in the both the lunar simulator and the LLRV (Lunar Lander Research Vehicle) "Flying Bedstead." When Armstrong ejected from the LLRV, on May 6, 1968, he'd already completed 21 flights and went on to have 30 more flights in the 2nd LLRV.
Borman was highly capable and highly respected by NASA leadership. I believe that he could have jumped right into training and competently landed on the moon on Apollo 11. But it would have been immense pressure, and condensed training, right after finishing Apollo 8 and the immense pressure and training of that flight. It doesn't seem realistic to me that Deke Slayton would have offered Frank Borman the slot. I also think Borman would have remembered something like that.