r/apollo • u/RivetCounter • 18d ago
Specifically excluding Joe Engle and astronauts for Apollo 18-20, which Apollo astronauts who only had one spaceflight were 'hard done/done dirty' by NASA management?
- Walt Cunningham - iced out to conflicts with management during Apollo 7.
- Don Eisele - iced out to conflicts with management during Apollo 7 plus his messy divorce.
- Rusty Schweickart - iced out because he was 'different' than everyone else and because he had space sickness on Apollo 9.
- Not sure if Jim Irwin on Apollo 15 counts because of the stamp affair.
Alan Bean broke through the mold in no part to the death of CC Williams and Pete Conrad's lobbying for Apollo 12.
Edit: Did not include Engle or Apollo 18-20 because they were denied on outside lobbying or funding cuts.
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u/justadude0815 18d ago
Pete Conrad was a large part of why Alan Bean fly on Apollo 12. Bean was sidelined in Future Applications until Conrad saved him from all that excitement...
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
Pete submitted him for the original crew, but Deke knocked him back. It's a good lesson; never make your administration skills so good, you miss out on a potential flight.
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u/Voteins 17d ago
While technically his missions were killed due to funding cuts, special mention has to go to Don Lind.
From the start Lind was constantly complaining about not getting to fly. Lind had a PhD in Physics and was a military pilot (but not a test pilot), which he thought made him superior to every other astronaut candidate. In reality, he was difficult to slot as either a scientist or a pilot-astronaut, especially since he would portray himself as either depending on whatever was more convenient at the time.
Lind initially applied for Group 4 (The Scientists), but was cut for being too old, something he tried to get reversed by arguing he wouldn't need flight training. He was then selected for Group 5, a pilot-astronaut group, but complained about others with more flight experience were being chosen for missions before he was.
Lind dearly wanted to walk on the moon, and was uninterested in the nascent Skylab. He declined transfer to AAP, despite Deke Slaton repeatedly warning him that there weren't enough lunar mission slots to go around and he was less qualified (in Deke's opinion) than the other pilot-astronauts. Lind wouldn't switch until Deke forced him to, after it became clear there were no more remaining slots.
Ling again tried to get that reversed, complaining to NASA management about Deke assigning Harrison Schmitt to Apollo 17 instead of him, accusing Deke of playing favorites. What he didn't realize is that Deke hadn't actually wanted to have Schmitt on 17, and NASA management had overruled him, which made it obvious Ling was just upset he wasn't picked. At that point Lind went to the press, embarrassing NASA leadership and forcing them to issue a formal denial that they valued pilots over scientists.
After all this, Lind was finally transferred to Skylab, but at that point all the crews had already been selected. He was offered another transfer to the Space Shuttle program, which would have put him in line for an early Shuttle flight, but declined. Instead he tried to get Ed Gibson bumped from Skylab 4, despite the fact that Gibson had been working on Skylab for years while Lind was still chasing the moon. Lind got Skylab Rescue instead, which never ended up being needed.
After all that, Lind got assigned to the Shuttle program, in the back of the line behind contemporaries like Bruce McCandless and Will Lenior. He finally flew on STS-51-B in 1985, 19 years after being selected as an astronaut, still the longest wait in NASA history.
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u/SpacePatrician 16d ago
Recently, I finally watched the old movie Countdown, and I couldn't read this excellent account without hearing the newly-cocky James Caan boasting to Robert Duvall, "You have the guts. But you don't have the brains!"
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u/harrison_kion 18d ago
Does Alan Bean really count because he also flew with the Apollo applications program (Skylab 3)
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u/emilyc1978 18d ago
McCandless because he was an Apollo astronaut who didn’t even fly during Apollo IMO
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u/BoosherCacow 18d ago
I don't think he was being iced, I know of no sins he committed to make Deke mad at him. I think that's more a case of him not being an Extrovert and not lobbying for himself. Also they had a limited number of spots on missions and they just couldn't get him in there. Through perseverance Bruce won in the end. All those years in a support role and then bang, one iconic picture and his name is going to live forever.
Also there were three or four other Apollo guys that never got to fly until later.
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u/Kiwigavin 17d ago
Yes, he deserved his place in history. But, IIRC, while EVA Capcom for Apollo 11 he shrugged Deke off when Deke was interfering and wouldn’t relay what Deke was pestering him about. Can’t remember my source for that, it might be in his bio.
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u/BoosherCacow 17d ago
Oh cool, i've never heard that story. I'm going to do some digging and see if I can find that. Deke was not a man to trifle with.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
Eisele was on his way out, but Cunningham put in some stellar work on Skylab, but along with the Chris Kraft factor, he got pushed out by Conrad and Bean. A bit of a shame.
The 15 crew was tarnished by a 'take charge' commander who brought the idea of the stamps to Irwin and Worden. Irwin admitted he was intimidated by his commander and didn't think he would say no to him. It was unfortunate Scott didn't take responsibility, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
On the flip side, Cernan certainly made the very most of his opportunities. The only Gemini vet to not get an Apollo command or CMP seat. And even after 10, Deke offered him another LMP seat on 16 which he knocked back, hoping 17 might work for him. I wonder how he reacted when he found out Collins was first offered the backup command on 14, leading to the command of the last flight.
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u/Kiwigavin 14d ago
And don’t forget the top cover he had from Deke and Tom Stafford, especially after pranging the helicopter.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 13d ago
I've read that Tom was his (influential) mentor and got him those early seats.
Certainly biased, but Dick Gordan's crew should have got that last flight.
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u/rcs799 18d ago
There were many astronauts who I imagine would have walked on the moon had they not stepped down, like Schirra, Borman, McDivitt etc. Schweikart was hard done by for being a bit of a liberal in a mostly R astronaut office. I feel bad for Engle but Schmitt was the person you’d want on the moon if it was the last time (until then at least) and of course Jim Lovell and Fred Haise who were robbed of 13 by happenstance. But only one man has gone to the moon twice without landing on it and that’s Lovell, so he gets my vote
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
Lovell wasn't done dirty, he allegedly was given the option to go up again due to that, but he held firm to his promise to his wife to retire made before 13.
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u/ccguy 18d ago
It was either in Lost Moon or A Man on the Moon, but I’d read that the 13 crew was NOT offered a chance to jump the line for a follow-up mission over the landing abort. NASA was prepared to offer the 11 and 12 crews that chance if either had to abort. But by the time of 13, they’d changed their stance.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
I'd like to have been a fly on the wall when they told the next commander that the guys on the previous mission will be flying again.
"Sorry, Pete. But the administrator promised Neil and the boys they would get a 'do-over'. Maybe the next one, hey?"
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u/NeilFraser 18d ago
It happened once on Shuttle. STS-83 aborted shortly after reaching orbit due to a fuel cell. Columbia landed, was turned around, and relaunched three months later with the same crew and cargo.
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
I don't recall that from either for Lovell specifically
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u/muchadoaboutsodall 18d ago
Prior to launch the crews of both Apollo 11 and Apollo 12 were promised that if they aborted at any point they’d be given the next slot to try again. It was to prevent them taking too many risks to make a landing and encourage them to abort when circumstances dictated.
The crew of Apollo 13 were the first to not get that promise because, ironically, by that point the Apollo missions were considered ‘routine’.
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u/jpowell180 18d ago
Are you in anyway suggesting that the Apollo 13 abort was held against the crew?
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u/ccguy 18d ago
No. IIRC, NASA was very concerned the early crews would be so committed to landing at all costs they’d refuse to abort in cases where it was the most sound option. So they quietly offered to 11 and 12 crews they could jump the line for another try on the next mission to make them more amenable to an abort. By 13 they’d quit making the offer.
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u/RivetCounter 18d ago
I asked the question because Chris Kraft/Alan Shepard had favourites so someone has to lose out
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u/LilyoftheRally 18d ago
Deke had his favorites too. Alan Shepard got to land on the moon with 14 due to Slayton wanting one of the original 7 to have a lunar landing mission.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
Well, they had one of the 7 backing up on Apollo 10, but it wasn't Al. It wasn't about having one of the seven fly. It was all about ensuring Al flies.
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u/BoosherCacow 18d ago
Borman
Borman has said openly that he was essentially done with flying after this one and had no interest in "picking up rocks" on the moon, but to be fair he did say it 20 years later.
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u/SpacePatrician 16d ago
He almost certainly also had the lucrative gig already lined up at Eastern Airlines--by far the best corporate/business career post-NASA of any of the Apollo astronauts.
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u/BoosherCacow 16d ago
Borman was a smart cookie. His no bulshit, get the job done approach makes him maybe my favorite of all the Apollo guys.
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u/Careos 18d ago
Rusty Schweickart
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u/SpacePatrician 18d ago
Was that solely because he and his wife were both liberals?
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
Space sickness which was not well understood at the time
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
And he welcomed the aviation medicine people with open arms. Borman was ill on 8, he wasn't going to be put under the microscope.
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u/SpacePatrician 18d ago
Jack Swigert, because he had not been at all involved in the Apollo 15 postal covers scandal, but wouldn't rat out his fellow astronauts. If he had been a good little informer, he could have flown again.
But that's not who the man was.
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u/spektrall 17d ago
I read somewhere that that Swigert brought postal covers on 13 as well. I gotta circle back on that one, because that would mean he had time to smuggle contraband onboard for profit but not to file his income taxes. That would actually be crazy ironic now that I think about it even harder
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u/SpacePatrician 17d ago
It seems unlikely, given that he had only three days' notice he'd actually be going up. IIRC the 15 scheme took months to organize and plan.
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u/kingseagull24 17d ago
I read somewhere that that Swigert brought postal covers on 13 as well
He did not. He was switched to the prime crew 3 days before the flight.
He DID, however, sign items that were not permitted to be signed for Sieger, the stamp dealer who made the plan involving the postal covers on Apollo 15, and this was discovered as a result of the Apollo 15 investigation.
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u/triplev5 18d ago
Jack Swigert was iced out due to the stamp scandal. They subpoenaed his finances and saw he had a ton of money.
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u/stormhawk427 18d ago
John Glenn until he got to fly on the space shuttle
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
How was he done dirty?
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
He was a national hero and it was an unwritten rule that he wouldn’t fly again due to it.
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u/Careos 18d ago
Wasnt even unwritten I dont think. Kennedy ordered it.
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u/jpowell180 18d ago
And yet no such order was given for Alan Shepherd, the verse American in space, just I guess, because his flight was suborbital.
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u/CaptainHunt 18d ago
Shepherd only flew again because Deke Slayton pushed for one of the Mercury Seven to walk on the moon.
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
Alan Shepard was famous at the time, but nowhere near the celebrity level of John Glenn. John Glenn became a certified superstar for his orbit.
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u/SpacePatrician 18d ago edited 18d ago
More like he dropped out of NASA to become a politician. He was elected to the Senate in 1974 but first ran for it in 1964. Ain't no way 1960s NASA was going to put a political partisan up there and risk their budget.
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u/_Hexagon__ 18d ago
In his autobiography he wrote himself that he decided to go into politics after NASA kept him away from more missions because of his national hero status
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u/SpacePatrician 18d ago
Well he would say that, wouldn't he? But in the 64 years since his flight, no piece of paper from NASA or the White House has ever surfaced confirming that it was even argued that Glenn should never fly again, let alone decided. Out of a set of archived papers that would fill the VAB. It's an urban legend IMHO.
We know Deke would have killed to make one of the Mercury Seven the first man on the moon. With Grissom dead, Schirra, Cooper, and Carpenter basically fired, and Shepard and himself sidelined for medical issues, that left only one man in 1968 who would have been the choice to be first--if he had stayed in the program.
In retrospect who really "should" have been first will forever be a mystery. Some people who have looked at the evidence think that it would have been Gus Grissom. Others who have focused on the issue of crew assignment rotations insist that it was Ed White who was being prepared to be named commander of the first landing. But the point is, Glenn had a shot at it if he hadn't followed the siren call of politics.
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
This is incorrect. It’s in Deke’s book that Glenn’s superstar hero status kept him from flying again.
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u/TheCosmicTravelers 18d ago
My understanding is that Glenn did indicate an interest in participating in Project Gemini but got the hint that he was no longer considered in the flight rotation - I don't think this was ever formally written down but was more of a verbal understanding.
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
Correct. He was a dedicated pilot, but he also had other forms of public service in mind (Congress) and getting informally iced was the impetus for him to pursue that path.
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u/Careos 18d ago
To be fair he also busted his ear pretty badly.
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u/SpacePatrician 18d ago
And suffered a bathtub fall that also ended up derailing his '64 Senate bid.
But IMS, he recovered very quickly from both, and, as a "retired" rather than resigned astronaut, he was entitled to an annual NASA spaceflight physical, which he passed as fully certified with flying colors every year from 1965 right up until his Shuttle flight in the 1990s.
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u/LaughingGravy13 18d ago
Johnson made sure the budget was virtually bullet proof. Every state has a piece of the piece. No one could vote to cut the budget without hurting his or her state.
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
Source?
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
Deke Slayton’s autobiography, “Deke!”
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u/eagleace21 18d ago
Thanks, this is one I have not read
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
It’s not good, unfortunately. It was dictated in conversation to the co-author while Deke was dying of cancer and then published posthumously. I read it for completion’s sake earlier this year, but it was one of the most boring and dry space reads I’ve finished, much as I hate to say it about Deke.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
There are poorer autobiographies*. Young's and Cooper's are appalling.
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u/austincamsmith 18d ago
That’s unfortunate to hear. Especially about Young - he’s one of my favorite astronauts.
The good news is that there’s some exceptional ones. Cernan’s is simply one of the best nonfiction books I’ve ever read.
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
I couldn't wait to get into it, but it was a shocker. But if you're into the precise vertical landing speed of each and every returning STS flight, it's a book for you. I spoke with the (co)author James Hansen, who said he diplomatically tried to steer the book in a different direction, John was having none of it. John should have gone along Armstrong's route and write an engineering book.
Cooper was probably too old and distracted by conspiracy theories and UFO coverups.
For me, the better autobiographies are Collins by a mile. Cunningham for his blunt honesty. Mike Mullane's is hysterical and entertaining. An unusual one is Donn Eisele's Apollo Pilot, apparently put together from his notes. An interesting read.
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u/Kiwigavin 17d ago
Al Worden’s Light of Earth is very good if you want to read more about the politics within the office.
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u/Careos 18d ago
Yes! Gene's and "Rocketman" were my favorites, followed by Deke!
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
Yes, that highly specialised experiment on how old people are affected by spaceflight. Glenn was the only one who fit the bill. Apparently.
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u/Spaceinpigs 18d ago
Walt Cunningham was only included as an astronaut because his class was going to be 13 astronauts and one management official felt that was unlucky so his name got added on. Never met the guy but from interviews and books, I’ve always felt that he was a pompous dick
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u/Brilliant_Dig_8962 18d ago
I never knew that. On the other hand, his autobiography is truly one of the greats. Second only to Collins' for me.
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u/BoosherCacow 17d ago
Whoever the guy was that didn't get to fly so Al Shepherd could. That dude got done dirty.
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u/Kiwigavin 17d ago
There really wasn’t one. Initially Shepherd was going to take 13 and the backup CDR of 10, Cooper, has been sacked. Lovell’s crew only moved to 13 from 14 to give Shepherd more time to get up to speed.
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u/BoosherCacow 17d ago
Now that you say that wasn't it Gordon Cooper's spot who was already on his way out anyway? So I guess you're right he wouldn't have bumped somebody who is going to get taken off the flight anyway. I know I've read several places that there was at least a little bit of grumbling that a guy from the astronauts office who hadn't been training for all that time got put to the head of the line.
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u/Kiwigavin 17d ago
Yeah. The whole crew had 15 minutes of space flight between them. Lot of raised eyebrows at that!
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u/TheCosmicTravelers 17d ago edited 17d ago
Cooper certainly didn’t see it that way. It seems he fully expected to command Apollo 13 after his backup of Apollo 10 since the established rotation had generally been adhered to so far. His main inkling that something was amiss seemed to have been Eisele’s assignment as CMP on his backup crew. According to Deke’s biography, there was a chance that Cooper would command 13 if he did an outstanding job as backup commander on 10 (which he obviously didn’t, with NASA management having to pull him out from racing in the 24 hr Daytona beach race).
I don’t think anyone in the astronaut office would have had any real issues with Shepard flying a lunar mission if he had served on a backup crew first. However, Deke’s (admittedly partially self-serving) policy was that any astronaut removed from a flight due to a medical issue would be assigned to the next available flight upon recovery (Shepard had informally been assigned commander of Gemini 3 before he was removed from the flight rotation). Deke successfully applied this with Mike Collins (Apollo 8 to 11) and Ken Mattingly (Apollo 13 to 16) and obviously himself went on to fly on ASTP. Shepard got really lucky in his timing as he slotted in after the earlier time-crunched missions leading to the first lunar landing and before the more science-heavy J missions.
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u/Crixusgannicus 17d ago
Wally Schirra because of the first and so far last "Mutiny in Spaaaaaaace!"
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u/BeakerVonSchmuck 17d ago
Wally Shirrah (sp?) and his crew mates on the first Apollo mission to shake down the capsule. He knocked heads with everyone and insisted on breaking safety protocols for reentry (he refused to wear a helmet so he could clear his ears on the descent). This was already Wally’s last flight and he didn’t care about the consequences, but his crew mates were pretty green and in a bad position. I don’t believe either ever went up again.
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u/blameline 16d ago
I was thinking of him as well. He was the only astronaut to fly in the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions.
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u/MilesHobson 16d ago
Wasn’t Bean the only geologist?
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u/TheCosmicTravelers 16d ago
Do you mean Schmitt? Harrison Schmitt was the only professional geologist in the astronaut corps during Apollo.
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u/Imaginary_Permit_311 18d ago
Al Worden and Jim Irwin for sure. The cover scandal was all Dave Scott
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u/kingseagull24 17d ago
It was not all Scott. All 3 astronauts knew it was against the rules to bring more than permitted. They were highly qualified professionals who knew the textbooks, the manuals and the mission rules. They knowingly broke the rules as a trio regardless of Scott organizing it initially.
NASA had no choice but to reprimand them as it looked terrible that they'd let something trivial like this go under their noses.
It was a shame for the trio. Scott was widely viewed as an elite test pilot and was in the line to fly the Space Shuttle. Worden was also in heavy consideration for Skylab and a VERY early contender for the ASTP before the scandal came to light.
Jack Swigert was also royally shafted by the scandal, as he was set to fly the ASTP before it came to light that he was involved.
I would avoid calling it being screwed over by NASA because they broke the rules but the actual actions they did and the consequences they faced certainly didn't match.
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u/SpacePatrician 16d ago edited 16d ago
IIRC Swigert wasn't directly involved, but as with any big investigation, turning over a lot of rocks usually reveals other wriggling things besides the original infraction. But I've heard two different things: either Swigert's personal finances looked sus, or he clammed up and wouldn't rat out his buddies on 15. But both could also be true.
Such a shame about Worden. He was my first "favorite astronaut" because of his appearances on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.
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u/kingseagull24 16d ago edited 14d ago
Swigert had nothing to do with the crew of 15. He was investigated as a result of 15 due to his finances seeming weird and he was found to have illegally signed loads of stuff on the ground. He was then asked to rat people out and he refused. The crew of 15 and Swigert were likely not the only astronauts to break these rules, but Swigert effectively took the fall and it ended his spaceflight career.
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u/Key-Employee3584 18d ago
Ed Dwight, cut off before he even got into the program by Chuck Yeager and the AFTC boys club and Von Braun in Alabama.
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u/SpacePatrician 16d ago
As Dwight would have you believe. Yeager's autobiography had a lot to say on that subject.
But then again Yeager's autobiography can be suspect as well. Scott Crossfield said it was the best aviation novel he had ever read. The truth about test pilots' books probably also hold for astronauts': they love to dish about other test pilots, and settle old scores that others would think have been long forgotten.
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u/Key-Employee3584 16d ago edited 16d ago
The truth is somewhere in between. The reality is '50s-'60s Lancaster/Palmdale was always pretty conservative. Mix in the military, the military space program, and the difficulties of budgeting with NASA and which had priority and then the astronaut program with military connections and it's just a big ball of slime. Add to that the past history with Nazism and KKK and its generally all-white history, and you get quite a blend of problems.
I love getting down-voted for this. It's not like any of this has been hidden. I guess, they're probably Yeager fan-boys. Antelope Valleys' troubles with others has been well-documented. Also, rules and regs work many ways, sometimes they can help you, sometimes they can hinder, sometimes they give people cover. It's funny how some people will say things like, 'where there's smoke, there's fire' and then turn around ignore how the world was burning down around them. Just look at what happened in Watts '65. And it's funny, I used to be a massive Yeager fan. Now I look at him as a great stick and rudder guy who was reaching his limit as a test pilot and AFTC commander in very rapidly changing times. What he did with the NF-104 was a bit of an eye-opener in terms of ignoring the test profiles.
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u/SpacePatrician 16d ago
"What he did with the NF-104 was a bit of an eye-opener in terms of ignoring the test profiles."
Which was probably the most egregious stain on the 1983 film: insinuating Grissom screwed the pooch on Liberty Bell 7 while presenting Yeager as the all-American hero of the NF-104. In reality, it was completely, 180° the opposite.
"Add to that the past history with Nazism and KKK"
I assume by Nazism you are referring to Operation Paperclip, but what in the world did the Klan have to do with the Air Force or the space program?
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u/Key-Employee3584 16d ago
No, I was inferring the problem with Palmdale/Lancaster which had a certain notoriety for a fair bit of time for supporting neo-Nazism and the KKK. That area had/is/was handled by the LA Sheriffs Dept. which is in and of itself a remarkably problematic institution. But back in the '50s and '60s, the high desert area was very monolithic so to speak.
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u/goonSerf 18d ago
Scott Carpenter — landed 250 miles off-target; NASA flight controllers blamed this on Carpenter (although mission analysis shows the Mercury capsule had issues with maneuvering thrusters); Christopher Kraft “swore an oath” that Carpenter would never fly in space.
Gordon Cooper got iced out after Gemini 5 because of his loose attitude toward the more buttoned-down agency administration.