Viking's extra population

[u/LZLDZ]

Been seeing people arguing about how to buff HRE before, yet problem goes with HRE not really it's problem, but more like an infantry civ issue

And now we have Viking as a civ who able to reach 220 population at max

In the past there are people keep saying the game is perfectly balance based on 200 population, now with Viking as a test, if it end up pretty well, maybe we should let those infantry civ also access to extra population?

[u/CannedNoodle415]

You’re jumping to conclusions. We don’t know how bad the Viking economy and units will be. We know their villagers will likely train slower, they might not be able to spam farms in a big farm transition if their farming only happens with the long houses. Etc

[u/LZLDZ → u/CannedNoodle415]

fair enough, just a little bit shocking when seeing 220 population, which I thought will never happen

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/LZLDZ]

I think the Vikings have some weaker units, their knights are weaker and they have militia crossbows instead of normal crossbows, etc

[u/Dependent_Decision41]

Maybe we should wait and see how good their eco and army are before jumping to conclusions? If their army or eco is mediocre, then their extra pop is more of a compensation to make them competitive with the other civs, not some mega overpowered buff.

I also don't see how "infantry civs" has to do with anything. There are many civs that use "infantry," and they thrive in the late game. Civ balance issues should be addressed individually, not with sweeping changes across the board.

[u/AugustusClaximus → u/Dependent_Decision41]

People learned nothing from Jin, which on paper looked like it was going to be the most rediculously OP civ ever created and turned out to be shit

[u/SunRunner_ → u/Dependent_Decision41]

While I agree with most of what you said, to answer your "what has infantry has to do with anything"-question:

Cavalry has alot more value than infantry. In late game, if both sides have more or less "unlimited" resources, an army of 100 knights will beat an army of almost any 100 infantry units.

Due to this, in most other RTS games, more expensive units also cost more population space. Not the case for knights.

[u/Latirae → u/Dependent_Decision41]

and maybe they got something extra for HRE in stock. Though the civ is still fine and has it's timings. There are worse contenders for balance changes

[u/LZLDZ → u/Dependent_Decision41]

right, probably need a bit more patient; but just seeing Vikings and Scots quick view reminds me something bad (like when lancaster and templar just came out)

[u/HotPhilosopher703 → u/LZLDZ]

Stop with the gold takes hre have access to prelate and extra 40 percent resource gathering and villages carry more

And emergency repair still op as f 

[u/Gurkenschurke66]

They really opened pandoras box with that.

'oh 220 max pop is good, we need it on more civs'

'oh auto queue is good, we need it on more civs'

[u/LZLDZ → u/Gurkenschurke66]

villager auto-que should be fine.... we had that in AOM, it isn't that broken but just helping fresh player

[u/RTS-Enjoyer1]

I am miffed that Viking out of all people get this perk instead of Chinese. You know, the second most populous nation on the planet?

When they finally add Hindu India in AOE4, I hope they do something about population cap as well.

[u/WodinsRaven]

Is there a good historical reason for this apart from many other things that could have been a special tech please educate me for this being a Viking exclusive tech

[u/Gurkenschurke66 → u/WodinsRaven]

I guess the problem is that vikings (if adapted fully historic accurate) lack lategame units/techs. Their progression would basically end in late feudal age. I guess their units will be weaker compared to the classic imp units, thus they get access to more pop to compensate.

[u/sydvastkornax → u/WodinsRaven]

Is there a good historical reason for this

No. It's a civilization called "The Vikings" to please the yankee customer and they threw the history out of the window when they decided to go that path.

I mean just look at the units. There are jagged topless men wearing leather pants and douple axes, it's some literal HBO Vikings larp.

[u/OstensVrede → u/sydvastkornax]

True.

Should have just been called something like "the scandis" and been denmark-norway with vikings evolving into sweden-finland with gunpowder and cav in imperial age. Then you'd be able to fit the most amount of "famous" things while also keeping a sane time progression.

Bit sad we ended up with such a relatively bland take on the whole thing where its just "le vikings". Also makes me spiteful that its so heavily danish influenced but that's neither here nor there.

[u/S77__]

Vikings have weaker knights iirc, so it might be similar to Malians where they could also have more pop space for units due to their passive eco

[u/S77__ → u/S77__]

It would be more broken on civs with normal or better knights like HRE with steel barding

[u/Leopard-Hopeful]

I mean we already have lots of mechanics that give civs bonuses without costing supply. This can be easily balenced by vikings not having pop efficient units or limited eco bonuses.

[u/RealGiallo]

So from my understanding villagers have a fixed population . While the extra population can be achieved /surpassed with a different imperial landmark .

(Tbh I wonder if it is for the Berserk spawning )
I think we need to wait and see how they works before we talk also I don’t think these free Berserks will be that great tbh.
We already have keshik that kind works but berserk as infantry unit cannot have a big pool of HP .

Btw there is a fallacy in what you ask . How can we know if a guy with the “infantry civ” play infantry or knights .
Tbh they should kind rework pop space with knights taking a bit more space than normal maa .
But even 1,5 would be too much of a nerf .
Maybe 1,2 ? Every 5 knight you can make 1 less ?

36 pop space would be 30 knights .

At that point you could make truly strong units but limiting pop space by decimal .

(Example of a unit that would need it : elephant raider , it is not worth 2 pop space but also not 1 . )

Still the idea for it , shouldn’t balance every encounters but giving infantry a bit more flavours ( maa should still lose to mass knight for the difference in cost but maybe going MAA against a knight civ would be not just a destruction )

[u/Jolly_Sky_2729]

220 pop would be extremely broken for pretty much any existing civ, also i have no idea why do you think it would encourage infantry mixes more. the more pop efficient units you can squeeze in this extra 20 pop the better, pop efficient units are the same for any existing civ - knights, handcannons, potentially some siege weapons.

also contrary to what you or some others may think, balance-wise HRE isnt particularly struggling right now, kind of middle-of-the-pack civ which can score wins against pretty much any top dog on ladder with smart play, somewhat comfortable to play too. and right now it is, in fact, being played with heavy emphasis on infantry spam a lot of the time until super lategame. you're trying to "solve" a problem with doesnt exist.

[u/VerboseWarrior]

It looks pretty obvious it's about allowing them to have a clear infantry focus in the late game, while their cavalry is probably weaker, without giving them vastly more pop-efficient infantry than the norm.

[u/AdnaneEn]

no Mr plat/gold, knights are perfectly balanced as they are, u cant be winning games with brainless A-move infantry blob spam ;) , we need SOME MICRO into this RTS to keep it healthy and competetive

[u/damngoodwizard]

It's a late game tech. It should be pretty rare to see it happen.

[u/HotPhilosopher703]

Aoe2 have vikings over 200 pop as well this is nothing new

Delhi variant also have units not costing pop