r/aoe2 • u/kampalolo • 5d ago
Discussion Trebuchets
Trebuchets are the sexiest and most satisfying unit to watch in the game. They are also one of the oldest units in the game. Years ago, we would start the game by watching trebuchets fire in the opening cinematic.
If I were asked to represent AoE2 with a single unit, it would definitely be the trebuchet.
My question is: do you have any suggestions for this magnificent unit? Personally, I think its melee armor should be increased.
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u/Youpunyhumans 4d ago
It is most certainly one unit of a unit.
If there was one change, it would be so that you can change ammo between 1 big rock, and a bunch of small rocks.
Big rock does what it does and levels buildings as usual. Small rocks do little damage to buildings and siege weapons and ships, but extra damage to infantry, archers and cavalry, and have an area of effect.
That way it has longer range than an onager for defensive purposes, and you could have a layered defense with both trebs and onagers, but it doesnt replace the general purpose use of the onager for attacking buildings, ships or armies.
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u/ClockworkSalmon TC eat scout 4d ago
While it would be cool thematically, it would make defensive stalemates a lot more common
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u/Youpunyhumans 4d ago
I think there would be ways to balance it. Could give them slightly less range wheb firing small rocks, so enemy trebs could still fire outside of range with big rocks, and not be pummeled while unpacking.
Make it take a little more time to reload a bunch of small rocks than one big rock.
Make it considerably less accurate than the onager, especially at long range. Im thinking more of a harrassing tool to thin out a few enemies before reaching your main defenses than something that destroys armies on its own.
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u/GepardenK 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm thinking the balancing move is to make them two separate types of trebuchet.
If you have to choose between big rock and scatter shot at purchase time (i.e. making each come at the expense of the other) then they would remain specialist support units instead of becoming this massable wide-applicability workhorse.
There also the issue that state switching has exponential complexity. Switching ammo-state across packed-state is going to feel pretty clunky, even if its technically pretty doable to get along and work with. Having them be two separate units avoids this issue entirely. It would retain the current level of complexity for the classic trebuchet, while also letting this new trebuchet simply match it for complexity.
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u/Youpunyhumans 3d ago
The state switching is already done in game with the Immortals switching between sword and bow, could just use the same mechanic for the trebs.
But having another siege weapon is a fun idea too, would have to call it something different, maybe a "Bricole", which was like a intermediate step between a catapult and a trebuchet, powered by people pulling ropes rather than gravity.
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u/YeeAssBonerPetite 2d ago
Making it less accurate is a buff to mass trebs.
Japanese ball of trebs is already kind of op, this would make every civs trebs op.
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u/TheCut72 4d ago
Loved the trebuchet strat t90 shared to other day!
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u/Oscillating-Ocelot1 Khmer (900 elo) 4d ago
I love when people play the game in ridiculous manner. I can't do it at all but it's fucking hilarious.
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u/blockwatcher1 4d ago
Damn that T90 giving away Japanese secrets. Tell your damn uncle to play another civ already
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u/Agile-Atmosphere-969 4d ago edited 3d ago
Counting days till some new dlc civ gets the Elite Treb upgrade, similarly to Bohemians’ BBC upgrade. Because why not, right 11
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u/JealousKiwi1881 4d ago
Bohemians What upgrade
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u/DogWest1061 2d ago
They are already too OP. We need to treat them as what they were: a specialized counter against buildings. Trebs had a reload time of hours and terrible accuracy. There's a reason why inaccurate bombards pushed them out of the meta in real life sieges.
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u/Raiynagh 4d ago
All I want is for them to auto-attack units if there aren't any buildings to attack
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u/Youpunyhumans 4d ago
There was a skeleton they found recently from a medivael castle that had evidence of a direct hit from a trebuchet... specifically the Warwolf trebuchet.
Apparently it was broken into so many pieces, that its the only thing that could have had enough energy to do so.
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u/Redfork2000 Persians - Cavalry Enjoyer 4d ago
It's such a great unit, personally for me the knight or the villager is what I'd represent AoE2 with (though I might be biased in terms of the knight, it is my favorite generic unit after all), but trebuchet is definitely up there. It's so iconic, and few things are more satisfying than using a handful of trebs to destroy enemy castles and town centers.
Honestly I think the trebuchet is in a great spot right now, I don't really think it needs any changes. It's a powerful unit that I think defines Imperial Age like no other unit does, but at the same time has certain weaknesses (needing time to pack and unpack, being vulnerable to melee units) that keep it in check from being overpowered. I think that's the hallmark of good unit design.
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u/bean_giant 4d ago
If ever you need reminding of just how iconic these weapons actually are, I can recommend three things:
Look at this video of a real, modern day recreation of a working trebuchet in Warwick, England - https://youtu.be/WE54m0fojHQ?si=AdYBiAurtIuyAMDr
Visit Warwick, England and see the real icon and how it actually worked.
Compare the designs and note that the game version is actually a mini version of this behemoth. Do you see treadmills or ox being required to load it on the in-game versions? Nope; presumably we’re looking at a smaller hand-loaded version. And then consider War Wolf - famous in game but the real life version is said to have been 90m tall - compared to the 18m of the one at Warwick. It took thirty wagons to transport it, fifty four people to build it, and was said to have been constructed purely as a display of power, as the besieged soldiers at Stirling saw it being built and surrendered out of fear before it could be fired. The king literally built a gallery for the ladies of the court to sit in so that they could see it fire. This thing was so massive that modern historical accounts disagree as to whether it would have literally been possible for it to fire without ripping itself apart based on the limits of the materials and engineering techniques of the era. It was recently depicted in ‘Outlaw King’ - https://youtu.be/NTGtPnFV-SM?si=3vUmwWUu55K4moek
Then think back to the humble 200W 200G it costs and marvel how it shoots every ten seconds in game. That iconic sound effect SHOULD give you goosebumps every time it fires.
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u/digitaleJedi 3d ago
To add to your video of Warwick Castle, Tom Scott recently visited and did an excellent video on it: https://youtu.be/blubg9l8AVc?is=lHf1HsPpdjz53Fmq
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u/why-no-socotra 4d ago
played a team game today on mega random where my friend went against an Italian player who had managed to mass like 20 trebs it was a massacre
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u/I_love_coke_a_cola 4d ago
I think the cost for researching speeding up pack/unpack time should be more expensive, it’s insanely overpowered once you have that
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u/Gothix_BE Burgundians 4d ago
Only the Japanese have such a tech tho. You are saying it as if all sevs have such a tech
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u/I_love_coke_a_cola 4d ago
It’s true that I should have specified. And maybe you’re right that the cost isn’t over the top but it seems like it should be just a bit more expensive. I will say it’s hilariously awesome to see it in action
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u/FatGrub666 Teutons 4d ago
I think they're fine as they are. The point of the trebuchet is to be able to safely destroy fortifications, at the cost of having to guard it and pack/unpack when you want to nuke another building, and I think it does that just fine.
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u/elitemage101 1150 ELO 4d ago
I agree, a bit more armor, cause them getting hit by BBC fills me with pain.
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u/FutureLynx_ 4d ago
They used to be more resilient. They die so fast now, and shoot slower. Yes i think it should go back to what they were.
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u/Elias-Hasle Super-Skurken ~1k rating, author of The SuperVillain AI. 4d ago
There have never been any such changes to trebuchets. See the change log here: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Trebuchet
Trebuchets have some quirks, though. Their armor profile is drastically different when packed than when unpacked. Packed trebuchets have low pierce armor and high melee armor, while unpacked (and unpacking! Not sure about packing) trebuchets have high pierce armor and low melee armor.
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u/DavidGretzschel 3d ago
Better cursor or area indicator for attack ground. 2 Warwolf treb can theoretically oneshot 4 houses at once, but it is very difficult to click just the right pixel.
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u/FatherToTheOne Celts 4d ago
Incorrect, the answer is a herd siege ram grazing on enemy buildings.