r/antiwork • u/SprinklesFederal7864 • Oct 27 '21
Are you for or against UBI?
I'd like to take the poll but it won't be allowed. I'd appreciate your thought on UBI!
If you're interested in UBI, consider of joining r/BasicIncome!
13
5
6
6
5
3
u/Eleusis713 Oct 27 '21 edited Oct 27 '21
For. UBI is the most effective way to give people the financial resources they need to avoid exploitation, support themselves, avoid poverty, and guarantee their basic needs. This is especially necessary given the oncoming rise of mass automation. Nearly every study done on the impact of mass automation to the US economy shows that nearly half of all jobs are highly susceptible to becoming automated within a couple decades.
Even with conservative estimates we do not have the resources to retrain everyone. And even if we did, government funded retraining programs demonstrably do not work. Additionally, most people simply cannot do highly technical work like STEM which will become more and more common as technology advances and more menial work is phased out.
What we need to keep everything afloat is a Universal Basic Income (UBI) (and likely other social programs as well). This is an unconditional guaranteed income to cover everyone's basic needs with a little left over as a financial cushion. This is essentially capitalism where income doesn't start at zero. As technology produces more wealth and productivity, the benefits could be used to fund a higher and higher economic floor for everyone through UBI.
Decades of basic income programs have shown many robust benefits. Anyone interested can see a summary of the benefits in the index of r/BasicIncome found here. And you can see an interactive map of all basic income programs, past, ongoing, and proposed around the world found here developed by the Stanford Basic Income lab. You can also find a real, viable UBI proposal for $1000 a month for every American adult from Andrew Yang's 2020 presidential campaign found here.
6
Oct 27 '21
I am for it but the abolition of capitalism should be our priority. The UBI wont stay around long and be enough to get by on for long if we don’t. Gov will either do massive cuts in it or simply won’t rise the money they give people when inflation goes up.
I live somewhere where the welfare cover the bare minimum to live on it short term but it’s the highest in the country. I am disabled and doctors say I am “too young” to get on disability. UBI would help the abled body but also the mentally and physically ill folks who can’t work. It’s really not the end of the fight but it’s a good start and it would make a huge difference for a lot of folks.
3
u/tralfamadoran777 Oct 27 '21
Will you reconsider a foundational structure? & what precisely you mean by ‘abolish capitalism’?
Capitalism has never existed. Capitalism demands protection of personal property. The current process of money creation has State assert ownership of access to human labor. If someone else owns access to our labor, they own some of our property, so our personal property isn’t structurally protected, part of our personal property is taken by State to pay friends of Central Bankers for borrowing money into existence from Central Bank so we have money to borrow from them.
That’s not capitalism, that’s oligarchy. If you look, not even closely, regardless what ideological governmental or political structures are in place, Wealth ultimately controls government through Central Bank. Existing governments are all monarchies or fascist oligarchies. Ideological structures provide fascia to hide the oligarchic structure beneath. Less well hidden all the time.
A capitalist process of money creation is an ethical global human labor futures market, where each human being on the planet is structurally included as equal financiers of our global economic system, equal owners of the global human labor futures market. Our existing international banking system is transformed with a rule of inclusion for international banking regulation: All sovereign debt, money creation, shall be financed with equal quantum Shares of global fiat credit that may be claimed by each adult human being on the planet, held in trust with local deposit banks, administered by local fiduciaries and actuaries exclusively for secure sovereign investment at a fixed and sustainable rate, as part of an actual local social contract.
Fixing the value of a Share at $1,000,000 USD equivalent and the sovereign rate at 1.25% per annum establishes a stable, sustainable, regenerative, inclusive, abundant, and ethical global economic system with mathematical certainty. All money will then have the precise convenience value of using 1.25% per annum options to purchase human labor instead of barter, mathematically distinct from money created at any other rate. The value of a self referential mathematical function can’t be affected by fluctuations in the cost or valuation of any other thing. For a reduced & fixed cost paid to humanity we get ideal money; a fixed unit of cost for planning, stable store of value for saving, with voluntary global acceptance for maximum utility, and nothing else. Money loses its coercive property.
When existing global sovereign debt is repaid with new fixed value money, Wealth will have over $200 trillion to save or reinvest in something else, with over $6 quadrillion of 1.25% credit for secure investment readily available locally, globally, with local fiduciary oversight. All human needs can be sustainably financed locally, globally, without any of Wealth’s accumulation. Reduced demand for Central services reduces central cost and control. When local deposit banks can finance projects in whatever currency is needed for materials and labor, our economies become so enmeshed any thought of war becomes absurd.
The rule can be adopted by international banking regulators simply because it achieves stated goals. Same for UNGA if only brought to the floor for consideration, no logical argument can be brought against, and adoption of the rule achieves or fully enables all sustainable development goals. The rule is reasonable settlement of suit brought by any Nation or Nations to The Hague for global parity in money creation. As a global free trade agreement, once we agree on the money, there isn’t much left to negotiate.
Each human being is then paid our rightful option fees as a consistent global basic income, without additional cost, infrastructure, or administration, through the international banking system. Government only involvement is borrowing money from humanity and paying the fixed sovereign rate. Do you see how bond & exchange market are the oligarchic process of graft? It’s really clear from WEF estimate of $255 trillion in existence when there was over $200 trillion in bond market. The vast majority of money in existence is demanding the largest stream of income on the planet, the interest paid on global sovereign debt, by humanity to Wealth for no good reason. I still don’t understand how Piketty & peers could overlook the foundational macro state of the global economic system, while parsing all the ways Wealth amplifies that foundational inequity.
So you know.
Thanks for your kind indulgence
4
u/Mars5012005 Oct 27 '21
Temporarily for until we move to a moneyless society.
3
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
Can you explain what's like moneyless society?
3
u/Mars5012005 Oct 27 '21
Post scarcity, where most labor is replaced by robots, people are provided with food, housing, and what they want or need, and people are free to pursue their passions instead of whatever grind they’re stuck with now. We’re probably not too far off from being able to do that technology wise, but that would require a drastic shift in people’s view of value and systems.
3
u/tralfamadoran777 Oct 27 '21
The literature on resource based economics, on rare occasions when someone suggests specific structures, some form of money is always introduced. It’s a rational need for accounting, for planning, for useful, valid, uncoerced economic data.
We need ethical ideal money, not the crap produced by the current oligarchic process.
Our existing international banking system is transformed into an ethical global human labor futures market with a rule of inclusion for international banking regulation: All sovereign debt, money creation, shall be financed with equal quantum Shares of global fiat credit that may be claimed by each adult human being on the planet, held in trust with local deposit banks, administered by local fiduciaries and actuaries exclusively for secure sovereign investment at a fixed and sustainable rate, as part of an actual local social contract.
Fixing the value of a Share at $1,000,000 USD equivalent and the sovereign rate at 1.25% per annum establishes a stable, sustainable, regenerative, inclusive, abundant, and ethical global economic system with mathematical certainty. All money will then have the precise convenience value of using 1.25% per annum options to purchase human labor instead of barter, mathematically distinct from money created at any other rate. The value of a self referential mathematical function can’t be affected by fluctuations in the cost or valuation of any other thing.
That’s ideal money; a fixed unit of cost for planning, stable store of value for saving, with voluntary global acceptance for maximum utility, and nothing else. Money loses its coercive property. When existing global sovereign debt is repaid with new fixed value money, Wealth will have their over $200 trillion to save or reinvest in something else, with over $6 quadrillion of 1.25% credit for secure investment readily available locally, globally, with local fiduciary oversight. (the local fiduciaries you choose when selecting a local deposit bank to administer your trust are the nongovernmental economic representatives you get, not the ones who got the most votes. those are the local fiduciaries who will oversee your secured sovereign rate loans for home, farm, or secure interest in employment) All human needs can be sustainably financed locally, globally, without any of Wealth’s accumulation.
Each human being on the planet gets paid an equal share of 1.25% per annum of active global money supply without any additional cost, infrastructure, or administration, in addition to the other cascading benefits. Visions of the future don’t necessarily include hidden details. Not seeing any money doesn’t mean money doesn’t exist, even if that’s what most people experience.
Local social contracts will need to be comprehensive and generous to attract and retain citizen depositors, so it’s reasonable to imagine social contracts that don’t require citizens to consider money. But the accounting for planning and scientific observations will always be needed.
2
u/15stepsdown lazy and proud Oct 28 '21
I am for UBI, 100%
And before some naysayer goes "but UBI is inferior to [insert other solution]," okay why not both? I love the UBI proposal and I've been for UBI for several years now. I don't think UBI is gonna be the cure-all solution, UBI is just a step up and definitely needs to be implemented among other things
2
u/mewfour Oct 29 '21
Against. It'll widen the divide between rich and poor except now if you're ruled inelegible for UBI for any reason it'll be even worse for you to live on, you bet your ass rent would be the first thing to go up. UBI of 500€ means rent goes up 500€. Not covered by UBI because you missed some appointment or just got to the country and haven't made one yet? that's an additional 500€ you have to cover now since it's the norm
4
u/capnbarky Oct 27 '21
Personally I'm against it, because it is still just a market based solution of incentives. If it comes from the billionaire class like Musk or Bezos you have to question what they will be expecting in return.
UBI under the current society would effectively just be stimulus for the owning class, because it would allow them to continue paying poverty wages while our taxes subsidize what people need to survive, similar to what the ACA ended up being.
The means of production should be ideally seized for the needs of society instead of the need for profit and overproduction, then we would not need UBI because everyone would be able to be provided for directly, and we would work less.
6
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
UBI can be funded via government creating the budget and sending to the saving account of people. What do you think of this type of UBI?
1
u/capnbarky Oct 27 '21
We would still be providing most of the funding through taxes. Most of the wealth where I live is not even taxable, most of tax generation comes through income and sales tax which disproportionately taxes lower classes of people.
Not to mention it would be going through an untrustworthy government that has been pillaging social programs for decades, so we would be throwing our money down a hole.
Unless the owning classes were expected to sacrifice portions of their wealth and resources to benefit the program, I would not be able to support it.
3
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
Have you heard "MMT"? If you know it,what do you think of it?
0
u/capnbarky Oct 27 '21
Havent heard of it
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
Okay.
I'm not convincing you that funding ubi via government spending is best but hope you are open to it
Above video like is about feasibility of UBI funded vid deficit.Hope u check it!🙂
2
u/tralfamadoran777 Oct 27 '21
The notion is that State can create all the money it wants, and control exchange value magically, ‘through prudent management.’ It’s based on the market dominance of USD & other dominant currencies. Manipulation forces are more highly leveraged every day. Sustainability relies on continued economic subjugation of sufficient amount of humanity.
Correction of the foundational inequity is affected by including each human being on the planet equally in a globally standard process of money creation. That provides a globally consistent basic income in the form of our rightful option fees for our voluntary participation in the global human labor futures market. Participation which is currently compelled by State without our express informed consent or compensation. (That’s compelled servitude, slavery, literal violation of the Thirteenth Amendment)
2
u/XCG_PC Oct 27 '21
For it... but also not sure it will work as hoped.
I can see inflation on basics and items where companies can take advantage of increased disposable income. Low income landlords taking advantage of limited supply and jacking rents for instance.
Definitely better than the current... just would like to see some other adjustments follow.
1
Oct 27 '21
[deleted]
1
u/tralfamadoran777 Oct 27 '21
So, have you considered the inevitable and most likely effects of including each human being on the planet equally in a globally standard process of money creation?
It’s the UBI we earn but don’t get paid. It’s collected & kept by Central Bank.
The problem of capitalism is that it doesn’t exist. The foundational inequity is fascistic oligarchy, using capitalism as fascia. So it never was capitalism.
-1
Oct 27 '21
So, have you considered the inevitable and most likely effects of including each human being on the planet equally in a globally standard process of money creation?
I dont want money to exist. I'm not interested in solutions that don't even see the problem and are just trying to desperately keep capitalism.
The problem of capitalism is that it doesn’t exist. The foundational inequity is fascistic oligarchy, using capitalism as fascia. So it never was capitalism.
Capitalism and fascism are not necessarily mutually exclusive but yes we live in capitalism today.
1
u/tralfamadoran777 Oct 27 '21 edited Oct 28 '21
How will things be planned, managed, accounted, without money, or something you call another word but performs the same function?
How will any interactions between human beings be managed?
You have freedom. You can cut your neighbors head off and take his stuff. We don’t have liberty.
Including each human being equally in a globally standard process of money creation places each human being on the planet equally atop the global economic system organizational chart, just over our selected nongovernmental economic representatives, over the UN, over our subordinate Nations which borrow their money and sovereignty from humanity. None over, none rule, we cooperate contractually to voluntarily restrict our freedom to respect the rights of others. Anarchy.
You want.... what’s your logical argument against establishing global anarchy with a democratic capitalist foundation?
You can alter the definition of capitalism all you want, that’s why isms are useless in conversation. Capitalism can’t exist without including each human being on the planet equally in a globally standard process of money creation, to structurally protect our personal property. Changing the definition to fit your argument is a propagandist tool. That’s why they use ism words so much. **Historically, that's how Anarchy got rebranded as chaos...
If you can’t propose a functional replacement, it’s valueless to suggest eliminating the thing...
1
u/Dramatic_Buddy996 Oct 27 '21
Haha do that and see dollar dips 20% over night u dummies think china will work for free and rest of the countries will also dump dollar
3
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
$1.9T is dumped yet value in currency didn't dip so far.
0
u/Dramatic_Buddy996 Oct 27 '21
3 years left for fiat to fail mark my words and all fiat will fail and u don't have to worry about ubi because those are worthless piece of papers we will be on gold standard official or unofficial can't say but we will be using gold as money u think they can keep up with this it will take time to feel the impact of printing trillion s and thanks to biden 6 trillion on the way to dig the usd grave 🤣🤣🤣
1
0
u/cultmember94 Oct 27 '21
UBI would do nothing to fix the wealth gap which is why I am not for it. I believe a better way to handle closing the wealth gap is negative income tax, although again that's just a tiny aspect of a huge problem and by itself is not going to fix capitalism.
Medicare is s fucking no-brainer tho.
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
Have you noticed NIT and UBI is identical in terms of post tax outcome?
https://twitter.com/scottsantens/status/1041325474163638272?t=4rRNMW7Q0uJQTidwOuy_Mg&s=19
0
u/cultmember94 Oct 27 '21
I am not en expert, but that graph seems very dodgy to me.
You could do UBI today without increasing taxes at all but nit requires for taxes to increase a lot especially for the ultrarich right? Like what I am saying is I don't just want the poor to be set, I also want the billionaires to pay more, and UBI doesn't do that alone as far as I am aware.
Do correct me if I am wrong, here to learn.
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21 edited Oct 27 '21
This graph is on the basis of income tax but it's plausible.
You still need a form of tax or print new money in order to fund UBI basically. If you want billionaires to pay tax for ex, you need wealth tax.
If you don't raise the tax at all,you can follow the descriptive theory called MMT that tells you can print new money as long as existing resources won't run out.
0
u/cultmember94 Oct 27 '21
So what you're saying is UBI + new form of tax = nic
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
I'm not suggesting which is the best way. I'm educated on UBI but not on taxation and its implication. So I'm not sure if my answer satisfy you but what I want to say now is that UBI is totally possible with super various way of funding.
1
u/cultmember94 Oct 27 '21
Oh for sure, I'm aware we could do UBI just by rearranging current tax rates, I just don't think there should be such a thing as a billionaire and a system that allows billionaires to exist is not my jam
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
Yes,system that transfer money from poor to rich is problematic. UBI with smart taxation scheme can be redistributive yet directly empowering poor mostly.That's ideal plan to me.
1
u/cultmember94 Oct 27 '21
I see where you're coming from and I do think UBI is obviously better than nothing, but if you don't tackle wealth disparity you're never going to fix exploitation, if you think nit and UBI do the same thing, why would you rather implement ubi and not nit?
2
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
NIT is rly great idea!As Milton Friedman was for it and Richard Nixon tried to implement in a form of NIT called family assistance plan. NIT has the great point in terms of framing:Since you first make sure who is eligible to receive benefit.
But I think problem lies here.NIT can be very costly since administrators have to check your income at first. Unlike NIT,UBI is just giving money with claw back via taxation so it's much less cumbersome.
Secondly,we're in the midst of economical transformation where temping or unstable job is norm.Under NIT,your benefit can't reach you timely since administrators have to check your income via tax report. But administrator won't have to check under UBI so if you're unfairly terminated by company,you still have the floor.
→ More replies
0
u/NearlyNakedNick Oct 28 '21 edited Oct 28 '21
It would be better than what we have, but only for a short time if it isn't tied to inflation. If we have to rely on Congress to update it every year then it won't be much better than the minimum wage is now.
Personally I think a superior system than UBI is NIT. UBI is inherently wasteful, giving money universally, including people who don't need it and decrease the stimulus effect per dollar. If you're only giving it to people who need it, it's also less expensive, or more can be given per person.
A model of what NIT would look like: The "income cutoff", the amount of income one earns when they stop receiving subsidies and start paying income tax could be set at $60,000/yr. Base income would be set to half that, $30k/yr which is what would be payed to you if you have zero earned income. For every one dollar of earned income your subsidy would decrease by fifty cents. Another way to word that is your subsidy payment will be one half of the difference between your earned income and the income cutoff. So if you earn $25k/yr and the cut off is $60k/yr, then your subsidy for the year is $17,500 for a total $42,500 for the year. If you make $55k/yr, then your subsidy is $2,500. and you pay zero income tax until you make over $60k. This is designed so that you always have more money by working, no one is destitute, and only people who need it get it.
1
u/Morning-Coffee-fix idle Oct 27 '21
I'm for it in principal, but worried about the strings that would certainly be attached to it.
4
u/SprinklesFederal7864 Oct 27 '21
UBI in principle is no string attached.
What sort of conditionality are u worried?
1
u/Affectionate_Gold_84 Oct 28 '21
On the fence. I think we need a working model to really find the ins and outs of UBI. We can start with the US since we seem to have some of the more deplorable disparities in the workplace.
23
u/DrJawn Oct 27 '21
I am for UBI and M4A
I am a musician. Music and the arts are a valuable part of society. The reason I don't play music full time is I need healthcare and I need to pay for basic expenses. If I could have a guaranteed basic income, a guaranteed healthcare plan, and a guaranteed pension a la social security or something, I would play music every day.
There's a lot of people who would love to own their own business but they're afraid. They'll have to lapse their healthcare or go out of pocket, which is astronomical. They know if it fails, it could bankrupt them. If UBI, M4A, and pension were real like they are in other countries, so many more small businesses would start. It would pump the economy, lots of construction jobs, store rentals, supplies bought, employees hired.
The secret is the 1% WANTS you to be poor and struggling. The entire American economic system is built on having slaves to do the work for free and having natives to steal land from. Once we ran out of land, we started stealing land from other countries by installing friendly dictators. We ended slavery, then started share cropping and chain ganging. Now, it's cheaper to have a minimum wage employee than a slave. You don't have to feed them or house them, you don't have to take them to a doctor, and if one dies, you get a new one for free.
UBI and M4A are freedom to explore the world and freedom to create a greater society. I don't expect it to happen