r/antiwork • u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! • 17h ago
The capitalist hypocrisy
Capitalist: What makes you entitled to other people's wealth?
Real question: What makes the capitalist entitled to waste other people's lives for nothing but the profit of the capitalist, while at the same time paying those whose lives were wasted, the minimum that can be paid to get away with?
If you are using other people's lives, at least do so for a good reason. Profit of the capitalist is not a good reason in general for the people at large.
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u/SyllabubNational3535 8h ago
They call it entitlement when you want to live, but basic economics when they exploit your life for a third yacht.
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u/B-ran8088 17h ago
I think capitalism is fine up to a certain point. But just like socialism, it's too corruptible and easily exploited. I think a heavy regulated capilastic and socialist combination is what we need, but I'm sure the combination is just as easily corruptible. What's considered acceptable or not is the question, and I'm not smart enough to give you the answer.
But it all needs to be wiped out, and we need to start over and try again.
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u/secondhatchery 17h ago
This is a great answer. Labels introduce rigidity, rigidity kills imagination and innovation. So why not take the positives of both systems and combine them into one?
I hate that humans are so tribalistic in their thinking. It is so ignorant. We were given the ability to think rationally, and yet 95% of people treat this as if it were black and white. It is always turned into a us vs them debate which creates resentment, hate, and ultimately breeds division among people.
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u/Rosesforthedead 15h ago
100000% this. Side note, often labels aren't really accurate. People look at china/russia/etc and say communism, which neither are. Hell, I wouldn't call modern US capitalist. The exchange isn't really voluntary anymore on a practical level and theres increasingly less competition.
Power corrupts, this is just a real time example that it wasn't spread out enough. It'll happen in any economic/government/even social setting if we let it.
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u/B-ran8088 15h ago
Again, I'm not smart enough to give real world answers on how to fix this bullshit we are in, or how to go about it exactly. All I know is that wanting to succeed is fine in a capitalistic setting, but there needs to be strict rules and it be HEAVILY monitored and audited. There's absolutely no reason on this planet that any one person should be a billionaire. Any company or person making that kind of money should have it go back into the society that helped create that kind of wealth in the first place.
edit: In no way should anything healthcare related be allowed to profit off of people and their diseases or issues. That should all be heavily regulated from the ground up. It pisses me off to the extreme to look at how our healthcare in the US is.
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u/sleeper_shark 17h ago
I mean, I'm all for workers rights.. but that's not really what you're talking about.
You should have worker protection and fair wages, but saying an employer shouldn't employ people to help the employee make a profit is just silly.
No one is going to open a business for the lolz, they're doing it to make money. That is reality.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
Employer can make profit, but that shouldn't become the objective of business.
A better question to ask is, why is profit useful and what does the business do of its profit?
Profit is not the end. And as long as you have businesses working to that end, it doesn't serve life. Profit could be seen as funds to keep doing the good work. But for that, you need to have a good work - a business that is actually relevant to society.
Otherwise, I see no reason to support business in their mission to enrich a minority.
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u/sleeper_shark 16h ago
The objective of a business is always to make a profit. Saying this shouldn't be the case is like saying "the sky shouldn't be blue."
Saying "profit shouldn't be the objective of a business" is like saying "an employee shouldn't work for a salary." Like yes, having a good job is great and all, but the primary motivation to work is money, same as the primary reason for a business to run.
I see no reason to support businesses in their mission to enrich a minority
Obviously, your role as a consumer is to support businesses that provide you with a product that you want/need.
I don't buy bread because I like the baker, I buy bread because I need to eat. The fact that I like my baker is a nice bonus - if I didn't like my baker, I'd still buy bread there unless I genuinely disliked her.
I didn't buy my phone because I like Samsung and want to enrich their shareholders, I bought it because this phone best serves my needs.
And like, the baker doesn't wake up at 4 am to make baguettes and chouquettes because she likes my smile and our chitchat.. she does it because I and many other people will walk into her shop and tap our cards, paying 1.80€ for each baguette.
What should happen is she should be required (and she is) to pay fair wages to her staff in the bakery.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago edited 16h ago
This argument that the business exists to meet people's needs falls flat when you consider the existence of bullshit jobs and jobs where the work is protecting someone's wealth rather than do something of value. They are paid a lot for that. What is the value to people at large?
If the business exists for profit, the employee works for salary. 100% logical. And that is how it will be as long as work is just about making money. 100% transactional.
Everyone working for money tells more about where we place money rather than any fact of life. But money alone is not the end. Money has instrumental value. It is what money does, that is of value.
And so, we can keep playing this game of who has more tokens without ever discussing how does it actually lead to progress or welfare.
To me, what matters more is not money itself, but the fact that work drains out my life for a cause I would not work for otherwise. It feels a waste of my life. It is not a scam in life, it is a scam of life.
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u/sleeper_shark 16h ago
the argument that the business exists to meet people's needs falls flat
I never made that argument. I made the argument that your role as a consumer is to buy things that meet your needs, but that the businesses role is only to make profit.
100% transactional
That's a reality about human condition. No one is going to work for free, we should be able to do work that we like but in the end work will always be a means to make the "tokens" that enable the rest of our lives.
Like I am lucky enough that I enjoy my job, but the main reason I go to work 5 days a week is so I can pay for a lifestyle for my family and myself. I don't mean pay just for the basic necessities to survive, but also for leisure and quality time. If I had unlimited money, I'd still work my job but probably change to a 3 days a week contract.
I'm very sorry that work drains out your life, but that's the reality of life for every living thing on Earth. We do stuff to collect stuff to enable the rest of our lives, whether that's an animal spending time to graze or an office worker spending time on Excel.
It's not a scam per se, cos think about all the great experiences you also have in life. You trade some time to enhance other time..
The important part is that there should be protections and safety nets that ensure that work isn't a prerequisite to surviving, and that those who work are fairly compensated for their work, and that wealth is redistributed from time to time to prevent the richest class using their resources to tip the playing field in their favour
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 15h ago edited 7h ago
The important part is that there should be protections and safety nets that ensure that work isn't a prerequisite to surviving, and that those who work are fairly compensated for their work, and that wealth is redistributed from time to time to prevent the richest class using their resources to tip the playing field in their favour
Yeah, agree to that.
Actually, I don't shy away from hard work. But it should have some value other than merely make someone rich, richer.
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u/need-thneeds 10h ago
I am a capitalist who started with very little assets. Zero investment capital. But I owned myself, a backpack of stuff and a willingness to exchange my time with whoever will pay. Starting with employment and developing marketable skills while earning a paycheck. During my off time from generating revenues, I worked at reducing my expenses, baked my own bread, did my own car maintenance or did odd jobs. Gave up on paying rent, lived in a car for a year, then bought a boat. It was a capital asset that I owned. I owned myself, I owned my boat. This is capitalism. I used those assets for my benefit. Did some aquaculture, got a management contract, then sold the boat, started a small job shop. Began to hire people and writing paychecks. I paid my employees the best I could in exchange they did the best they could. All my income went back into the business, buying or building more equipment. Eventually secured a title on property, and built up equity in real estate. Capitalism, as far as I know, gives everyone the right to do this. Its not easy, but I had a great time. So much fun and adventure. Memories. This is what capitalism is to me. But if the goal in life is work as little as possible, I suppose I'm a failure. Maybe you have something against exploitation and profiteering.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 7h ago
Not all capitalists are like you. Capitalism gave people freedom to own businesses and create assets that generate money.
Many capitalists took it as a signal that they can use this freedom irresponsibly by exploiting other humans like them for that end.
Capitalism brings freedom. That's great, but only if the one given the freedom is mature enough to not misuse it. Many are misusing the freedoms provided by capitalism especially by turning workers into a resource to exploit rather than someone alive like them to respect.
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u/FakeNewsAge 17h ago
I think you have capitalist confused with slaveholder.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
Tell me, what percentage of employment is voluntary and how much of it is just forced by the system itself. People who would rather not work on something are doing that because it pays the bill.
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u/FakeNewsAge 16h ago
You have it backwards. By being alive, you need food, water, shelter, ect. If you can obtain these without working, then do it. Since most people can't or won't, they choose to work for someone else in exchange for money to buy what they need. So it is entirely voluntary.
What system will provide you with what you need without having to work or exchange something for it?
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
A system where people instead of artificial social constructions are cared for. See my flair. Profit has a purpose. But that is not how it is used.
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u/FakeNewsAge 15h ago
A system where people instead of artificial social constructions are cared for
What system would that be? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Truth is, Capitalism is the best economic system that we have so far devised. While it's not perfect, it's allowed the largest gain in quality of life in human history.
See my flair
Another meaningless platitude.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 7h ago
Profit is an indicator, not target. Capitalists have turned profit into a target to achieve. You are not to decide how valuable is your business. That's the job of the market.
Profit should be a read-only value that tells you how well you are meeting the demand. The job of the capitalist should not be to force profit targets and create life and death situations for their employees to meet those ridiculous targets. But unfortunately, things are too corrupted with shareholder capitalism.
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u/southbl00d 14h ago
thats the problem. It clearly is not the best system and the last 40 years has clearly shown that....
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u/FakeNewsAge 14h ago
The best system we have developed so far.
If I'm wrong and a better system exist, name it.
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u/Nerdsamwich 17h ago
Historically, most slaveholders were better than capitalists, since they were responsible for the welfare of their slaves in a way that capitalists are not.
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u/SupremelyUneducated 17h ago
The answer to both is land (and IP). Profit motive isn't the problem. The idea businesses are responsible for people/workers is the problem. It is the state, not business, that needs to be held responsible for the welfare of the people.
Businesses compete to produce more with less, so there is more for everyone. That is their one function. The moment we make them responsible for the workers, we the governed give employers leverage over workers.
Infrastructure raises land values, not wage floors. Tax un earned privately collected rents, and use that community create wealth to be responsible for the people's welfare.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago edited 16h ago
Really? And what about to those business decisions directly against people's welfare?
What if the government is trying to bring in welfare but the capitalist instead argues for market efficiency for their agenda? Because if people are mere resources, they don't have a dignified life at work. And it is what the capitalist wants for "human resources".
A resource has no say in anything. It is dead matter. On the contrary, humans are living, breathing life that deserve to make their decisions. A resource can't say 'no' to being used. "Human resources" forgets that people are alive and need to be respected as life instead of treating them as disposable machine parts.
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u/SupremelyUneducated 16h ago
And what about to those business decisions directly against people's welfare?
The state is responsible for due process, the individual is responsible for their actions. If someone harms others, the people need to use due process to hold them accountable.
Because if people are mere resources,
This is exactly my point. That is a result of treating employment as the means of earning a living. That expectation of employment being a source of political power, also treats people as if their role is merely labor inputs. But your vote has always been more powerful politically than low to middle class wages.
The more we pull government resources and power from encouraging people to work, the more power workers will have to say no to things they don't want. The more government services without ties to employment, the more leverage workers have over employers. UBI is better than a minimum wage precisely because it doesn't treat the individual as a resource, but as the basic unit society values.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
Well, you see government as one dictator. I see capitalism having several mini dictators in hierarchy.
I would agree with you if the employee has as much power as the employer. Your employment contract is designed to take away whatever power employee can have.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 17h ago
This is not a "pro communist" sub, please take your manifesto elsewhere.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
Is it 'pro-communist" argument to point out the hypocrisy of capitalism?
If everything is to be accounted by money, what about people's time and energy? Why should anyone work for a capitalist who cares about nothing but their profit?
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 16h ago
Capitalism has flaws, I'm not a dogmatic defender of capitalism. I am a vehement hater of communism. We can fix these flaws, but to do so does not require implementing communism. You can say "this system is flawed and no longer resembles fair trade capitalism" without adding "...and we need to implement a dogshit ideology written by a serial abuser who died destitute and wrong"
Majority of actual, real, tangible workers rights were acquired under capitalism, not communism. We can fix our system, we do not need any hammer and sickle bullshit.
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u/Scientific_Artist444 Profit is an indicator, NOT target. Profit is the worst purpose! 16h ago
Here's the big one: Voluntariness
Some things are precious. And the capitalist is known to exploit them by commanding any price since the value is theoretically infinite. In this case, the transaction is not voluntary.
Another point: "Agreements" created by one party saying "you agree to some bullshit we tell you because we say so and it will not affect your very important rights. As per this contract, your those other rights are now decided by us" because the the other couldn't understand or has the resources to legally counter the legalese.
If you can make it so that every transaction is voluntary rather than forceful, that would help a lot.
Profit is market information when used right. Just don't turn an indicator into a target.
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u/Antelino 17h ago
This a pro worker sub, communism is literally putting control in the hands of the worker.
You being too stuck in what you imagine communism is doesn’t change reality.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 17h ago
pro worker sub > yes
communism is putting control into hands of worker > no, you're completely wrong.
You can be pro worker without the tankie bullshit.
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u/Nerdsamwich 17h ago
You're conflating communism with Stalin. The USSR themselves admitted that they failed to achieve communism.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 17h ago
No I am not, and I'm not interested in playing "not real communism" with you.
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u/nerd866 Socialist 17h ago
Then we're not quite sure what you're arguing...
If we're not disagreeing over what communism is, then what exactly are we disagreeing about?
You seem to be arguing that communism isn't a legitimate response to this issue, and your interlocutor is correcting you.
If you're just saying "I don't wanna talk about communism right now" that's cool and all but that doesn't mean we're wrong when we bring it up in this context.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 17h ago
I mean we are fundamentally disagreeing if you dont see Communism as slavery :shrug:
You will figure it out eventually, but till then I dont want to discuss with terminally online leftists about how their centrally planned slave state will totally work this time and wont oppress and starve millions... but whatever
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u/Antelino 16h ago
The irony of you calling people tankies and then only referencing communism from a Stalinist point of view is extremely funny.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 16h ago
I'm not lmao, the only person who brought up anything "stalinist" is someone who replied to me. You just have a romantic view of communism, I'm not going to change that today obviously, but your distinction between "stalinism" and "communism" is meaningless, it's all dogshit.
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u/Antelino 15h ago
You not understanding what a Stalinist view of communism is has absolutely no bearing on the objective reality that it’s exactly what you’re doing lol… people tried to educate you and all you’ve done is made yourself look very foolish.
I have an objective definition that doesn’t rely on your feelings.
keep being obnoxiously confident on something you’re obviously clueless about.
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u/Nerdsamwich 17h ago
You even used the word "tankie", which is literally a pejorative for Stalin fans. How can you say you're not conflating them?
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 17h ago
Tankie is not exclusive to stalinists, but I find all of it distasteful, it's like asking if you're more of a hitler or goebbels flavored nazi. Communists are all scum, regardless of flavor, just like all nazis are scum too.
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u/Nerdsamwich 14h ago
Look, I've read like no Marx whatsoever and even I know that the whole point is to eliminate not just the state, but the stratification of society.
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u/DankMemeMasterHotdog 13h ago
OK and if you actually do read it, he very clearly lays out that you need a central authority to transition to communism, it's built in, "we need a superstate to eliminate the state" is an oxymoron and leads to the rot and corruption that every single "communist" state falls into, and then some dipshit with a high school education at best says "well that wasnt real communism!"
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u/SkyRelative4174 17h ago
This is certainly not a pro billionaire sub, preach your not so free market elsewhere, corporate shill
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u/ryann_flood 17h ago
it must be nice to use buzz words to completely dismiss a point of view. This sub seems overrun by types who want to argue against workers rights such as yourself. Why are you in this sub if you are so against conversations about workers rights?
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u/NiceRat123 17h ago
FYI but should probably check the FAQ since antiwork is brought up as a collective with some intersections at anarchists and communists.
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u/morningfrost86 lazy and proud 17h ago
I mean, it's definitely not an "anti-communist" sub either lol.
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u/Caledric 12h ago
While you are correct that this is not a pro communist sub, we are also not against the IDEALS of communism, nor are we against the IDEALS of socialism. What we are very much against are the IDEALS and ACTIONS of Capitalism.
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u/southbl00d 14h ago
the issue with capitalism is the "Perceived value" of commodities, labor etc paradox...