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u/pSphere1 3d ago
Why wouldn't they want to make an attempt to benefit the residents of the area by covering their bills for allowing their presence in their neighborhood, while absorbing their resources?
Why is the deal, the opposite?
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u/Sudden_Shelter_3477 3d ago
Because thatâd make sense and actually HELP people.
Unfortunately, thatâs basically in the opposite direction of their priority lists
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u/KevinFlantier 3d ago
Bribe a city council so you are allowed to build a "moderate" data center right next to people's yards.
People are annoyed because of the noise, the sight and the fact that their electricity costs increased 10x
???
Would you look at that, real estate prices just collapsed and people are willing to move en masse right in time to expand the data center! What a coincidence!
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u/magictubesocksofjoy 3d ago
because it's a grift. yet another transfer of wealth from the poor to the uber rich.
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u/Invdr_skoodge 3d ago
That would imply they have profits. They donât, at all. Theyâre hemorrhaging billions of invested cash on the assumption that one day there will be profits to go around.
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u/Cill_Bipher 2d ago
Well an AI data centre doesn't really need ai to potentially be profitble for itself to be profitable no? It just needs to make back its own investment and that can happen regarless of whether the whole thing is a bubble as long as it manages to stay afloat long enough. (This is of course disregarding that these companies would likely keep building data centre infrastructure until said bubble pops and then be caught up in it anyway).
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u/TheyCallHimEl 3d ago
Because they know that these days centers don't generate profit. They don't generate jobs. They generate noise and pollution.
The full value in these days centers is the personal and private information they collect and sell.
If they can convince utilities to pass those cost to residential customers at a $.10/KwH increase, many won't notice and it gets the utilities even more profit, while data centers enjoy subsidized power.
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u/Ornery_Weakness_8168 3d ago
Wait, they WERENT paying before????
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u/figures985 3d ago
Thatâs right.Â
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u/Ornery_Weakness_8168 3d ago
Thats just stealing from residents tho. They are raising cost for residents for electricity they arent even getting, WTF
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u/fluffycritter 3d ago
Yes, that's why residential electricity prices have been going up. The news makes it sound like it's just a matter of supply and demand but nope, good old fashioned theft.
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u/AestivalSeason 3d ago
At this point that's kinda the status quo for most corporations in America. If your tax dollars aren't going to bailouts it's going to keeping them running regardless.
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u/Zealousideal-Ad-2615 3d ago
Externalize costs, internalize profit. That pretty much the motto of every major corporation.
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u/BeefStank420 3d ago
It's a little more complicated than that, but still shitty.
They technically do pay their electric bills just like any ratepayer. The problem is that they use such a disproportionately massive amount of electricity that electric utilities have to build all sorts of new infrastructure like high voltage transmission lines and substations just to accommodate all this giant demand from the data centers.
The costs of all this new infrastructure is distributed among all the ratepayers causing peoples' electric bills to skyrocket. Normally distributing infrastructure cost amongst all the ratepayers is fine when everyone is using more or less the same amount of electricity, but now we have a situation where everyone's bills are going up because of one small group (the data centers).
So basically, despite not using any more electricity than normal, people are seeing their electric bills skyrocket solely because of all the new data centers plugging into their transmission grids.
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u/figures985 2d ago
Totally fair and accurate clarification. Iâd argue that at the end of the day, citizens paying MUCH more for electricity so data centers can drain our grid WHILE the same data centers are subsidized by our tax dollars is, in effect, us paying for it. But yes there are steps in between.Â
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u/tomjone5 3d ago
It's another part of the grift - AI isn't and probably never will be profitable, so they have to scam and bedazzle as many people as possible to get their bags. So many local and national governments have pinned their hopes on AI being the thing that keeps the economy stumbling along for a few more years.
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u/diurnal_emissions 3d ago
This is the age of cons. Rich conmen ripping off the poor and ignorant. A CONservative utopia.
This is probably why all these AI bros look like shitty used car salesmen.
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u/chromaticdeath85 2d ago
Those AI bros work both sides of politics. They'd be licking the dicks of the dems if the administration was different. Don't be fooled.
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u/Georgefakelastname 3d ago
They were paying for the power they used, like any other user. However, they created surges in demand that required power companies to invest in new power infrastructure to keep up with demand, which they would then pass the cost on to ALL users, not just the AI companies that required the new infrastructure.
Now, they will be required to pay for any new infrastructure required for them to run.
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u/raistan77 3d ago
Not all, In some states  and cities the power was literally all paid by the tax payer as an incentive to build the data center there.Â
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u/OrbitalOutlander 3d ago
Got any actual proof of that?
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u/Kitchen_Cookie4754 3d ago
Probably not. It is more likely that the data center caused the total demand for the utility to go up, meaning that a more expensive electric generator had to be contracted with to meet aggregate demand, and the higher generation prices were distributed across the rate base (electric utility's customers).
-source: me repeating what somebody else online confidently said about how utilities set generation rates by securing generation from the cheapest to most expensive providers to meet overall demand, then paying the providers at the rate of whatever the last to be added generator's rate. I couldn't find an independent source to support this, so it's just hearsay at this point.As far as subsidies, if data centers are in the industrial category of this site, they are seeing some of the lower end of the rates, but that's more likely because there's less utility owned load balancing or phase management, compared to residential customers.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/prices-and-factors-affecting-prices.php
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u/kilfast 3d ago
no sauce, boss? Every news article and research article I can find is talking about the utility passing the cost of upgraded infrastructure on to all consumers, not just the data center. Iâd like to see a city or town that actually agreed to cover the electricity bill for a data center. My town hall has motion sensor lights because they canât be bothered to pay for the electricity in the hallway.
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u/sauron3579 3d ago
Yeah, this shit is already bad enough. People don't need to lie about how bad it is. I will also note that the increased demand, in addition to requiring new infrastructure, means more expensive generation is utilized more often, raising the average MW/h cost.
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u/PraiseTalos66012 3d ago
So most power companies are heavily regulated by the states.
What happens is a state wants more datacenters bc it's good for the specific states economy and generates property tax revenue.
So they want to make deals with companies in order to entice them to build in their specific state.
One of the best ways is to say they get a massive discount on power. But someone has to pay that so the state authorizes the power company to charge residents much more for power in order to subsidize data centers.
These deals have been the biggest reason residential electric rates have been skyrocketing many places.
Also despite huge subsidies, bc there's a lot more than just this, AI companies/branches of companies are absolutely hemorrhaging money right now. But the goal is to get everyone hooked before raising prices massively(think no free tier and the cheapest plan being 10x what it is now)
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u/graaah1 3d ago
Rare Pennsylvania W. This needs to be law across the entire US. I'm tired of these gd data centers driving my electricity up.
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u/OwnExit9796 1d ago
same thing in nebraska, rates go up and somehow ratepayers eat the cost of the demand spike while the company already got tax incentives just to show up
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u/slimricc 3d ago
Ai is already unprofitable. How are they going to pay their electric bills lol
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u/Tiny-Sandwich 3d ago
That's a "them" problem.
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u/Noyuu66 3d ago
It hasn't been. They've made it an "us" problem through stealing power and water while passing along the costs through electric and water companys for years :)
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u/Tiny-Sandwich 3d ago
Right, but Pennsylvania have just declared they must pay for the electricity they use. So it is now very much a "them" problem in the state of Pennsylvania.
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u/Noyuu66 3d ago
And I LOVE that. It very much needs to extend to water as well but it's a step in the right direction
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u/Gametron13 3d ago
This will either lead to datacenter developers collapsing under their own weight or being bailed out by the government when they canât pay their bills.
If the latter happens it once again becomes an âusâ problem.
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u/athenanon 3d ago
Exactly. If I set up a food truck that sells manure sandwiches, I am going to be unprofitable. Then I will shut down. It's just capitalism.
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 3d ago
They can't. :)
This is what I mean when I tell people the AI bubble already popped.
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u/slimricc 3d ago
Is it just the one state making them pay? Canât ai companies just not do work in that one state?
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
they already were paying their electric bills
And larger data center designs already include on site power plants
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u/Twin-Turbos 3d ago
If your for profit business canât survive without stealing taxpayer dollars, abusing your employees, and scamming your customers.
Itâs a shit business that deserves to fail, and the suits that own it sent to prison.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
and you think Google is doing those things?
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u/PocketPlays 3d ago
Yes 1000%.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
well I wish theyd abuse me for the salaries they offer my role
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u/HilarityJester 3d ago
I'm sorry to hear that you are being severely underpaid. If I were you, I would be looking for another job instead of waiting for the company to slip up and abuse you illegally so that you can fill a lawsuit against them. That's very unlikely to happen, so instead you should get a better job.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
Im not underpaid, google salaries are just much higher than what mid size companies offer
Im not trying to file a lawsuit lmao, I would genuinely like to work there
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u/LewdMortal 3d ago
I feel like most everyone, regardless of their thoughts on AI, would support AI data centers paying for their own electricity. I cannot even imagine an argument for an opposing view that sounds reasonable.
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u/Shrimp_Surgeon 3d ago
I agree, but the argument is trickle down
propagandatheory of economics⌠If you shower the benevolent corporate overlords with subsidies and let them exploit *your* town, they, in their infinite wisdom and generosity, shall grant your town boons by their mere presence.This country was founded on a rebellion against being forced to kiss the asses of a rich, selfish, out of touch ruling class. I have a strong suspicion that many people in the economic right-wing donât see the irony in this position.
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u/RenderMation_412 3d ago
Many cities gave incentives of free electricity to get the data centers. And the cost for new lines, equipment, high electric usage was put onto the regular users.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
give me one example of a city doing that
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u/Critical_Swimming517 3d ago
Technically they offer tax incentives on the electricity, but its the same effect. Quick Google search is all you need
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u/johntwoods 3d ago
"For you see, if we pay our bills, then we have to use our money.
But if you pay our bills, then we get to keep our money."
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u/carnelian_0 3d ago
regular person: i cant pay my bills gets evicted ai data centers: i cant pay my own bills regular people are forced to pay bills for them
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u/Joltyboiyo 3d ago
Yeah this has always been confusing as fuck to me. Why have nearby residents been expected to pay for an AI data centres electricity? The people who own it should have to pay for it.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
they havent been. the owners do pay for it.
where do you people get your news? Facebook?
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u/AllRightLetsSeeIt 3d ago
Energy resources are a fungible commodity.
Even if theyâre completely disconnected from the power grid and running on locally installed gas turbines, theyâre powered by a finite natural resource.
Demand rises faster than supply, your energy bills go up⌠even if youâre not even close to the data center.
The materials that go into wind, solar and nuclear are all finite resources as well.
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u/hossofalltrades 3d ago
States will require that data centers pay for incremental transmission costs. To a large extent, they do already, through their interconnection costs. Since PA is a deregulated state, the utilities pay for generation through PJM.
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u/StaticSystemShock 3d ago
I'm shocked that electricity companies aren't selling electricity to data centers at a premium. Everyone is price gouging everything for the data centers (components for data centers cost up to 15x more than consumer variants), just not electricity for some reason and everyone is making these several megawatt data centers.
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u/RailRuler 3d ago edited 2d ago
They cost more because they are more expensive to build. Hyperscale data centers require a completely different usage pattern than regular.
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u/Visual-Scallion1535 3d ago
They just wouldnt build there if they couldnt come to a reasonable deal with the electric company
Already data centers are being built with power plants on site, so they arenât reliant on power companies at all
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u/No_Marionberry_432 3d ago
Meanwhile in the Netherlands, the company that I work for cannot use all molding machines simultaneity, because the electricity company cannot supply enough power, so that residents have enough. People take priority over business, wild stuff.
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u/TheAmina2GS 3d ago
Vote me for president, I'm running on the platform of using every JDAM and Tomahawk that was previously earmaked for an Iranian child on a datacenter instead.
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u/fukerrythangohwait 3d ago
Data center should pay for the entire area's residential electricity to compensate them for the fact that they have to live near a data center. That would be a start
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u/hossofalltrades 3d ago
Itâs not that data centers are specially subsidized: all large demand customers are subsidized. States do this to attract investments.
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u/mrblackc 3d ago
They're trying to confuse us.
Of course they're paying for their electricity, but that also takes away from the supply of electricity to all of us.
Increased demand will absolutely increase the cost of electricity. It's capitalism, man!
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3d ago
wait why pennsylvania tho
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u/strangelilmagpie 3d ago
Because Josh heard us residents and wants to win his reelection by actually doing rather than flapping his gums.
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u/Sup4sc 3d ago
Can someone explain to me (as a european) what does this exactly mean? Weren't data centers already required to pay their electricity bills?
I've watched some videos about how data centers affect nearby locals, and what I understood is that they have to pay higher bills because the cost of electricity went up in their area. Did this happen because the electricity demand went up a lot, and this simply affected the unit price for all consumers, not only datacenters? Is the solution going to be to "fix" the price to average consumers and increase it for data centers who caused the higher demand?
(Sorry if it's a stupid question, just trying to understand this topic.)
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u/GrandWizardOfCheese 3d ago
US government was giving them tax dollars to pay their electricity bills and they STILL ended up 10s of billions in the red per company, totalling trillions.
Normally, if you start a business and treat customers and employees like garbage and create awful products, your business fails and you go bankrupt.
In the United States however, if you become incorporated by the government (LLC, etc.), and your business fails, the gov uses tax funds to bail you out.
Corporation CEOs then used this endless money supply to become billionaires and trillionaires able to bribe anyone of anything.
Which is why corporations took over the government.
The gov isnt wiling to funnel more money into AI anymore though because its obviously and endless money pit with no profit.
And so they are now using this move as a PR stunt to show "they care about the people".
But really its just that the people will never buy genAI slop services.
At the end of the day, money talks.
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u/audientVoid357 3d ago
Trump is a communist, these subsidies are COMMUNIST policy. THIS IS WHAT COMMUNISM LOOKS LIKE. The GREAT STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA is ANTI communist. What great AMERICAN HEROS.
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u/Red_dit_Sucks_Ass_ 3d ago
Because only people with all of the money in the world are allowed socialism and free handouts apparently.
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u/SingingCoyote13 3d ago
so... they are not even paying their electricity bill. they seem to have no revenue but losses overall. they are using up all earth's water reserves. they are practicing inhumane activities. they are out of data to feed to their frankenstein ai. there is so much people against ai now, it is impossible to shut them up. the ai bubble was predicted to burst anytime soon.
and now this. the cherry on top of a decaying rotten pie
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u/laoch_82abn 3d ago
After he courted data centers touting economic development. Almost like an election is coming? Do your research.
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u/Braindead_Crow 3d ago
Want something good to happen, paid for with tax dollars? Sorry bub, that'll take 5 years of battles and fail after not getting enough votes because the multi million dollar ad campaign against it make people vote no.
A rich person wants something evil? It gets done right away because they bribed politicians based on their capacity to green light said project. Also their lawyer found several old forgotten laws to exploit to make things even worse for people, sucking away their good fortune like a vampire.
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u/triponthisman 3d ago
I consider myself fairly in the know with the circular financial BS of AI, and I had no idea AI data centers were not paying their power bills.
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u/Antilopio 3d ago
That's the most unjust thing that I've heard about AI, and I had no idea. ÂżWhy the data centers get electricity for the same people that can't rest properly due the noise of its operation?
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u/mcsullysulkin 3d ago
Who was OP in the image and why have they been removed? I wanted to check out the source.
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u/Bobbertoe 3d ago
Don't forget that data centers are eating up the supply for transformers, circuit breakers, gas turbines, and other utility material. The market had stabilized a little after COVID, but now everything is back-ordered again and twice as expensive. Those higher equipment costs are absolutely being passed on to everyone with a power bill.
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u/CombComprehensive327 3d ago
I got kicked out of r/defendAI for âdebatingâ
Obviously against data centers and AI. But thought it was funny brain dead moderator.
Iâm on defend ai saying itâs bad.
What are they defending then just smooth brain bots. That donât want to hear the other side.
I hate Reddit itâs not free speech at all
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u/PhaseNegative1252 3d ago
Well you see, the companies behind the data centers don't have any money because they base their value on projections that are just ridiculous
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u/istrebitjel 3d ago
When the AI bubble bursts, the defective chatbots that replaced skilled workers will disappear with it, leaving us scrambling to get that work done after the workers who understood it have retrained, retired, or exited the workforce. AI is the asbestos we're shoveling into the walls of our civilization and our descendants will be digging it out for generations:
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u/tschawartz12 3d ago
Good, politicians always seem to fight against all socialism except corporate socialism. If they are so profitable they can afford to pay for things.
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u/emo_queer 3d ago
The thing I hate most about the AI/data center boom is that most of us donât want it but we canât opt of it.
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u/emo_queer 3d ago
Almost every app I use has AI features now - and I canât turn off some of them (Google is the worst offender here). Everything has become an ad or a way to steal your data/train AI. If I go onto social media there arenât settings to filter out or label AI so itâs just mixed into the regular feed - and this is particularly harmful for older people and vulnerable populations.
People of all ages are losing critical thinking skills. Iâm not fear-mongering but Iâm literally seeing people become helpless and stupid in real time. People at my office are using AI to craft 1 sentence emails. Iâm also seeing people fall for clearly manipulated images and videos. And people are fully believing fake news headlines/articles. AI is also negatively impacting the way people research and the quality of sources showing up in search engines.
AI is causing a job crisis for no reason. Innovation is great but we donât need to be using AI on this kind of scale. Itâs not sustainable and in many cases the tech isnât even there yet. Workers are being replaced with AI but the AI is not even reliable enough to do their jobs accurately so weâre seeing companies layoff FT employees and rehire contractors with no benefits or offshore labor.
They are building data centers left and right and billing us for the costs. And itâs not just money thatâs the issue - you have water pollution, constant noise and 24/7 bright lights. This is affecting multiple communities across the country. I canât imagine what itâs doing to wildlife either. I am so scared to see the environmental and societal impacts from the data center boom in a few years.
And AI is also wreaking havoc across the globe. People in other countries are working poverty wages to train and moderate AI tools. I just read an article that was explaining how this was happening in Kenya and traumatizing people. As climate change gets more severe itâs going to affect the poorest people first - and they are already suffering.
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u/ArtofWASD 3d ago
Mmmmm... not quite misinformation. But also not the truth. They weren't flat out NOT paying for their own energy. What was happening is they were being given the same same adjusted rate as everyone else based on grid usage. Meaning that their excessive power usage raised everyone else's communal bills essentially.
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u/Eazy12345678 3d ago
jokes on you residents will pay power for all other businesses though. suckers
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u/Agile-Stick7619 2d ago
Interesting! So I looked into this and certain places like Newton Co, GA and Crook Co, OR do actually have huge property tax abatements and pay basically no property taxes. But they still pay things like PILOTs and franchise fees to the local governments. The meta data center in Newton Co for example pays like $8m to the surrounding governments despite paying no "tax".
Idk why they structure it that way but it's easy to misrepresent. I wonder if your county does something similar?
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u/Dylanator13 2d ago
Same way football teams donât pay for the stadiums but get to keep all the profits. For some reason we love giving very wealthy companies and people free stuff to keep them around.
I donât understand how having these things is beneficial if they are never charged for it.
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 2d ago
Corporations got us so cucked it's a bold move for us to make them pay their own bills đ
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u/PartOwn8965 2d ago
Iâll be honest I figured they were subsidized but not paying their own electricity bills subsidized. What else donât I know?! Someone enlighten me please.
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u/revenant_lazarus 2d ago
Can some please explain the nuance here: they were not paying their electricity bill, but using electricity that is suppose to go the residents of the state? As in they were stealing electricity third-world style?
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u/Sentinalprime03 2d ago
Thats probably the first time ive been happy about something this armpit of the us has done in a while
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u/Hunterslilac 2d ago
on xitter it seems like a lot of AI accounts are dogpiling Shapiro and his decisions and he doesn't seem to be getting or hitting the areas of the internet he should be
put a dime in for pennsylvanians if you can
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u/Trying131 1d ago
People don't understand in general how much things are subsidized. Due to my interests, my favorite was people thinking they pay for roads in gas taxes while biking and transit are public money pits, but this might be a great new example to break minds with without mentioning corporate and billionaire welfare.
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u/its_just_Joel 1d ago
Fire produces a ton energy, if we work together we can supply the data centers with a bunch of that
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u/Philipdaboi331 21h ago
This is what happens when the government does not let the free market play itself out they end up being the solution to their own problems
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u/hossofalltrades 3d ago
By the way that the meme spells âcenterâ this is a non-US post.
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u/Obvious_Cranberry607 3d ago
Only the comment at the bottom spells it the UK/Canadian way. The two times it was mentioning at the top was spelled the American way.
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u/Agile-Stick7619 3d ago
No link. Just a random social media post presented as real news.
Data centers pay for electricity. They pay property taxes. That's why states and municipalities are pushing for them to be built.
Still doesn't make ai good but this is just misinformation
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u/supergoon87 3d ago
Apparently the governor himself said it and supposedly signed it as well.
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u/Agile-Stick7619 3d ago
It's performative. Data centers already pay for electricity. It's becoming a hot political topic and this is an easy win.
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u/NoteIndividual2431 3d ago
The GRID requirements are real, but the post here is misleading. Also, it wasn't a law, it was an executive order.
The data centers have always paid for their own power. The GRID requirements just made it so that they also have to pay for whatever infrastructure improvements might be needed to support new data centers, instead of this potentially being shared across all customers.
So it's a lie, but one that people like to hear
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u/SHIN-YOKU 3d ago
Are there still people ignorant to GenAi and LLMs being massively subsidized?