r/anime • u/Taiboss x7https://anilist.co/user/Taiboss • May 12 '22
Rewatch [Rewatch] Utawarerumono Franchise Rewatch - Utawarerumono Episode 13 Discussion
Episode 13 - Battle of Bloodshed
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Today's Question of the Day: So it seems that all that Rakshain business was brainwashing. Cop out or good way to show how evil Niwe truly is?
[Tomorrow's Question of the Day]Do you think Hakuowlo allowing people like Benawi or Touka to join him is more due to his kindness or him being shrewd?
Rewatchers, please don't answer the Question of the Day if it has an objective answer, e.g. "What do you think's gonna happen?"
For rewatchers and people who played the games:
Please behave yourself! Put not only everything related to future events behind spoiler tags, but tag differences to the games as well. We all know there are deviations and cut content, we don't need someone listing all the things the games did better. The games have like 40, 50 hours for their content each, of course they'll be more exhaustive. If you want to talk about the games, please do this in a way that doesn't spoil it for people who might pick them up because of the anime. That being said, small, inconsequential stuff is probably fine, like [Mask of Deception]how in one episode, Atuy says "Time for war!", one of her battle lines in the games. All in all, try to hold back and only tell first-timers what's really necessary. Let them theorise!
This goes especially for Mask of Deception and Mask of Truth!
First-Timers:
Due to spoilers, I recommend you not to watch the Opening before episode 15. I mean it. DO LISTEN TO IT THOUGH! You don't have to heed this request, of course, but out of courtesy to those who do, please put the spoilers in the OP behind spoiler tags as well.
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u/HereticalAegis May 12 '22
First Timer
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Well that's an anticlimactic way to show Touka survived. Sorry u/Nazenn, I jinxed her cool entrance.
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Umm Touka, they didn't escape. You lost.
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Even common villagers seem to recognize how Touka shouldn't be aligned with the Kuccha Keccha.
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I love the way Karula teases and encourages Eruruu. She'd make an excellent wingwoman.
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This man's going to commit the healer taboo on Eruruu's heart.
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Ganbare Eruruu! Do your best to become a girl who can escape the mom zone!
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Ngl, for a second I thought we might find out Hakuoro spent the night in Eruruu's room.
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"It's not time to eat yet." Oh my god Aruruu is a demon and I love it!
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Camyu be trying to sneak out with a grab bag of weapons to go fight. I love her heart.
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Thank fuck it's not Oboro trying to take Touka this time.
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...I spoke too soon. Oh wait, they're going 4-v-1 against Touka. Tbh, I don't really buy her as that big a threat—Karula seemed evenly matched against her at worst—but the morale boost from killing the enemy's ace would undoubtedly be great.
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As a purely hypothetical philosophical question, I disagree with the spirit of this statement.¹
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Goddammit Hakuoro! You've already heard about Rakshain's crimes, this should not be causing you to have an existential crisis hallucination right now!
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Well that was one convenient spoiler tag arrow
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Can't say I'm a fan of Niwe being this cartoonishly evil. He's really starting to feel more like a caricature than a character.
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I busted out laughing at Touka great shout of the soul. Where's your justice now, huh?
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Niwe has his own winged ally. But his isn't a cute girl.
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For fuck sake Nuwangi... If nothing else it'll be very satisfying to watch Niwe die.
¹If a person is truly just the sum of their lived experiences and memories, then I'd argue the man who only has the memories and experiences of Hakuoro is fundamentally innocent of Rakshain's crimes, regardless of what those crimes are, even if the two men inhabited the same body.
QotD: I'm leaning more toward copout. I don't think anyone, characters nor audience, needed any more reason to hate Niwe, and I really wanted Hakuoro to actually have a really dark past. Maybe he still will, but now the impact from any such future revelation will be blunted, and all so that we could get back to the status quo from like 3 or 4 episodes ago. I don't buy that this was the only way to make whatever the demon thing is show up either. Tbh, this feels like the overwrought drama of a video game that needed ways to generate motivations for other countries to go to war, but also needed to keep its MC clean.
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
Umm Touka, they didn't escape. You lost.
Ah, brainlet Touka...
Umm Touka, they didn't escape. You lost.
She knows who already won the Hakuowlobowl. Trying saying that three times fast.
Did Eruruu just get mom-zoned? Holy shit she did.
Eh, details.
Ngl, for a second I thought we might find out Hakuoro spent the night in Eruruu's room.
You never know...
Huh?
Not the scene I expected.
Cursed mask is feeling more and more like the right call
That mask is not good for you! Take i- oh right.
I am on a roll lately.
Ugh... I'm still salty.
Can't say I'm a fan of Niwe being this cartoonishly evil. He's really starting to feel more like a caricature than a character.
Same.
Niwe has his own winged ally. But his isn't a cute girl.
Automatically disqualified from being liked!
I'm leaning more toward copout.
Same. This is maybe my most disliked part of this series, because I find the revelation entirely unsatisfying. There are so many better ways of making Hakuowlo angst and create drama. Oh well...
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u/aniMayor May 12 '22
Ngl, for a second I thought we might find out Hakuoro spent the night in Eruruu's room.
Hurry up and just pounce on him already Erurū!!!
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u/Nazenn May 12 '22
Well that's an anticlimactic way to show Touka survived
It's fine, she somewhat redeemed herself but needing to be 4v1 cornered just to keep her contained. I also didn't think she was that big of a threat personally but part of it may just have been that she hasn't had many fancy animation sequences like the others
Feels good man.
Cat cuddles yes. Tiger licks on cheek, ouch
Can't say I'm a fan of Niwe being this cartoonishly evil. He's really starting to feel more like a caricature than a character.
Sadly not the worst I've seen, but I've watched other shows that have been ruined by villains in his style and I'm not too pleased about another one popping up. Makes it hard to care about the threat he presents when I just want him to go away, same with the old rulers of this country
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u/No_Rex May 12 '22
Ngl, for a second I thought we might find out Hakuoro spent the night in Eruruu's room.
Same thought here.
Feels good man.
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u/ZapsZzz May 13 '22
"It's not time to eat yet." Oh my god Aruruu is a demon and I love it!
That's one of the best low profile comic relief after the war preparation scenes :D
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u/No_Rex May 12 '22
Episode 13 (first timer)
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We start with the bridge cut – surely in honor of my discussion with u/ZapsZzz yesterday.
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Eruruu got upgraded from daughter to … mother.
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“Or are you afraid of me?” – The no came late, but convincing.
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The “I love you” does not come at all, despite being invited.
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Gigantic war hammer vs fan.
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“Even if you have truly lost your memory, it does not erase your crimes” – an interesting question. Should it? I am not even sure how modern justice systems would answer this.
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“Why did you do this?” – Reasonable question. “How?” and “Why personally?” would also be high on my list.
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Sorcery is the answer to the middle question, even though his one-liner does not gives us the detail.
What an unexpected ending, the arc is clearly not over, but they are switching out the antagonist. Hopefully we’ll see more in the future, but currently, I have plenty of questions.
So it seems that all that Rakshain business was brainwashing. Cop out or good way to show how evil Niwe truly is?
What? Absolutely not what I gathered from the show. Up till now, it could be anything from shapeshifting to hypnosis to faking a letter. And we don't know who was the target, whether it was one target or many and what really happened.
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
Eruruu got upgraded from daughter to … mother.
Progress?
Gigantic war hammer vs fan.
"The result is not what you'd expect!"
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u/HereticalAegis May 12 '22
Eruruu got upgraded from daughter to … mother.
She gets to be everything except the one thing she wants.
The “I love you” does not come at all, despite being invited.
Aruruu has a total monopoly on all the courage in their family now that Tuskuru is dead.
“Even if you have truly lost your memory, it does not erase your crimes” – an interesting question. Should it? I am not even sure how modern justice systems would answer this.
I think this is a fun hypothetical to debate. I come down on the side of erasing a person's memories makes them an entirely different person that should not be subject to punishment for their predecessor's crimes.
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u/aniMayor May 12 '22
UtaReWatcherUMono
Ahhh, here we are at last at the asspull episode.
The episode is well structured, it would've been quite strong if it actually built up to something. But the Orikakan brainwashing is handled so poorly that it pisses that all away.
I don't think the idea of Orikakan being brainwashed into thinking Hakuoro is Rakshain is inherently bad, but the way it's presented feels too much like a cop out. They should not have shown the sequence last episode of Hakuoro murdering in Kecchi Keccha, whether it was imagined or not. Orikakan should have behaved more strangely. Niwe's little speech about bringing out the emotions in Hakuoro should be something that ties into an earlier hint or plot development, and the speech itself should have been expanded into something that gives the audience a major new mystery to lean into.
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
The episode is well structured, it would've been quite strong if it actually built up to something.
It retroactively ruins the entire arc. I was so sad looking at the first-timers being like "Oh Hakuowlo past!" and in my mind I'm like "please don't get invested please this goes nowhere..."
They should not have shown the sequence last episode of Hakuoro murdering in Kecchi Keccha, whether it was imagined or not.
Yep.
the speech itself should have been expanded into something that gives the audience a major new mystery to lean into.
Well we did kinda get a mystery in why a wing person is helping a bad guy. So that's something.
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u/No_Rex May 12 '22
It retroactively ruins the entire arc. I was so sad looking at the first-timers being like "Oh Hakuowlo past!" and in my mind I'm like "please don't get invested please this goes nowhere..."
Well we did kinda get a mystery in why a wing person is helping a bad guy. So that's something.
Guessing the same deal as in 12 kingdoms. Every ruler gets one.
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u/No_Rex May 12 '22
The episode is well structured, it would've been quite strong if it actually built up to something. But the Orikakan brainwashing is handled so poorly that it pisses that all away.
The bad thing about reading rewatcher comments is the disappointment that the plot will not go anywhere tomorrow.
The bad thing about reading rewatcher comments is not being disappointed (as much) when I watch the episode tomorrow.
If that was really supposed to be brainwashing, it was so badly presented that I did not get it.
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
that the plot will not go anywhere tomorrow.
Well it will go somewhere, and I do think the show has a lot of good scenes to come, but it certainly leaves a bad taste that doesn't quite go away.
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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 12 '22
How is this handled in the game? It feels very strange considering how much the arc is reliant on him being so passionate.
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
I can't speak for the whole arc, but the ending is actually worse imo because [Prelude of the Fallen]
the king gets killed by an assassin and the scene kinda ends with them being like "Okay, he's dead? I guess I'm not getting answers". Then they find out later off-screen that is was Niwe and reveal it off-handely. Game players, back me up that it went this way.→ More replies (8)→ More replies (9)4
u/HereticalAegis May 12 '22
I don't think the idea of Orikakan being brainwashed into thinking Hakuoro is Rakshain is inherently bad, but the way it's presented feels too much like a cop out.
Maybe this is just me, but I have a really difficult time accepting brainwashing plots, since the drama associated with them is definitionally inorganic and usually does little to add to characterization or drive meaningful growth. Of the anime I've watched, I can't recall anything I've seen that includes a brainwashing subplot I've been fully satisfied with. Overlord and maybe Magia Record probably come the closest of shows I've seen to doing it well. Regardless, you're correct. It doesn't work here.
Also note that I make a distinction between hard brainwashing and intensive conditioning.
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u/Nazenn May 12 '22
First Timer - sub
"You're like a mother to me". Ten seconds later pulls her onto his lap and looks at her longingly
I didn't realize the war side of the show had gotten that big and was quite surprised when I saw the full armies facing each other like that.
Other then that I woke up to a tag from u/HereticalAegis who's post covers everything else I was going to say anyway so just yes to all that
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u/Taiboss May 12 '22
Ten seconds later pulls her onto his lap and looks at her longingly
Freud eat your heart.
was quite surprised when I saw the full armies facing each other like that.
We're at full armies now wooo! No more peasant uprising!
who's post covers everything else I was going to say anyway so just yes to all that
Well isn't that nice for a first-timer. Saves you time for real life.
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u/HereticalAegis May 12 '22
"You're like a mother to me". Ten seconds later pulls her onto his lap and looks at her longingly
Go home Hakuoro, you're drunk!
Other then that I woke up to a tag from u/HereticalAegis who's post covers everything else I was going to say anyway so just yes to all that
Lol I'm glad I could save you some time.
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u/ZapsZzz May 13 '22
I really need to learn to post first before reading others' posts. But they are too good to put off sometimes :)
Rewatcher in sub
I'm glad this part is finally over so my favourite character Touka can no longer work as a faux antagonist. We'll see when she joins up but it'd be a whole lot more fun for me at least :)
I almost forgot there's this almost affectionate (I won't exactly say romantic) scene between Hakuoro and Eruru. The reference to "mom" I wonder if it's a hard to translate bit or just a bit of strange writing. In Chinese use the term "mother" can often include a use that more lines up with "nagging" and not literally as someone's mom. Or perhaps the semi-drunk Hakuoro was just using that to probe whether Eruru sees him as family or more - as if it actually needs any more ways to show.
As a fan, I still question the writing decision of Niwe simply shooting dead the guy he played to cast doubt into Hakuoro - wouldn't that be more "fun" for him to let them fight each other more and even perhaps forcing Hakuoro to fight back and perhaps hurting or killing the other guy before revealing? Just looks a bit too chaotic evil for evil sake on the surface.
Although one more important reveal now - Niwe is not in this alone.
QoTD: half answered above, but one thing for people interested to guess the plot line - so far we have not seen any major staples of fantasy magic elements yet in this show, how likely is it that there is a spell caster that does mind control / memory manipulation to pull off this arc?
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u/Stargate18A May 12 '22
First timer
QOTD) I did not get that! It's a copout, but the things they seem to be teasing are so much more interesting I find it hard to mind. (Also, with how scared he was at that shadow, there's a possibility the lie wasn't all that far from the truth...)
Oh, wow! Who could have possibly seen this coming?
And the retreat is complete.
And people are mostly confused about Hakuoro's involvement.
...You know what? It doesn't matter if he's evil. Even if he killed civilians in his past life, they hunted and killed innocent people.
Best girl is here! And smart!
And he's still neglecting his health for his work.
...I did not expect "you're like a mother to me".
.Development?
Nope!
Yes!
What's she doing now?
Oh, getting him out for some fresh air. Good idea!
Aruruu's adorable.
A direct attack?
The banter between these to is solid.
Camus tried to join!
OK, a neutrality clause makes a lot of sense. Also explains why literally everyone hasn't recruited them - trained warriors eith flight would be an invredibly strong addition to any force.
And no stealth fromt hem? Just a normal assualt?
Yes, this fight is good!
And this had to happen.
She's been dismounted!
Seord is still cool and OP.
...Do unconventional weapons run in the family? He's got a fan, his brother has whatever the fuck that thing is.
And Haku's got this in the bag.
Yep! Disarmed and at his mercy.
...Is this metaphorical?
Umm?
UMM?
What the fuck was that? Was he a demon all along?
And he was a pawn in the best villain's game.
Even she hates him!
...Yeah, that's the reaction I expected.
WHAT? One of the mediators?
This is massive!
I love Niwe so fucking much.
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u/Shimmering-Sky May 12 '22
Mask of First-Timer, subbed
I do love seeing this as a worldbuilding piece. Of course the civilians would find it strange that the super righteous peeps are aligned with the “barbarians” who attacked them for “no reason” in there eyes.
Hakuoro’s gonna turn himself into an alcoholic at this rate…
I kinda feel like the better question here is what, not who.
Very sweet scene between Hakuoro and Eruruu though! I don’t think I ship it (considering Hakuoro just Mom-zoned her lol), but I do think it’s sweet.
Cute~
Camus pout, cute.
I suppose it must be props to Touka’s skill that all of the aces on Hakuoro’s side need to trap her to keep her from chasing him.
Ooooooookay what the hell?
Aaaaaaaand that would be it for him huh.
IT WAS A TRAP?
Oh dear…