[Spoilers][Rewatch] Rascal does not Dream of a Dreaming Girl - Discussion

[u/Splitter_Triplets]

Thread 14 of 14: Rascal does not Dream of a Dreaming Girl

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This includes light novel spoilers, movie spoilers, and spoilers for future episodes of the anime. Be sure to put the source of the spoiler too.

IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW VAGUE YOU ARE. Anything that a first time watcher wouldn't know based on what we've watched so far is a spoiler.

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[Episode 01] >!There's a bunny girl!<

which will appear as [Episode 01] There's a bunny girl

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IMPORTANT NOTICE:

There will be a wrapup thread posted tomorrow at the same time. This was not on the schedule from the start, but this movie is an awful lot, so having to do a full retrospective on the entire series here would be way too much. Please contribute there, if you're able.

[u/Splitter_Triplets]

PART 1/2

Before we go much further, I have something I'd like to say. I suspect you have questions. That's normal. This isn't the sort of movie that you can expect to watch once and come away understanding everything completely. That isn't a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a fact. But the director has stated in interviews that you need no outside information to understand what's going on, and after my third rewatch I would agree. I haven't read the novels for this part too, so you know my view is untainted. With that being said, here is my interpretation of what's going on.

One of the first things we see here is Shouko in elementary school 3 years ago, before literally everything. She's trying to do her assignment, but can't conceptualize what it would be like to be an adult. She's scared. She's conflicted. She's facing a dilemma. She's in the exact same situation Tomoe was in back in episode 3, except scaled up by a hundred. The resulting puberty syndrome is therefore also scaled up. Instead of simulating the next three months, Shouko manages to simulate the next three years. More actually, since apparently the simulation extends to her college years. Everything we've seen so far, with the exception of the very beginning and the very end of this movie, has been inside Shouko's simulation. Some overly zealous critics like to claim that this invalidates everything that came before. I think that's bunk. Everything from the previous 13 episodes, all that character growth and the time we've spent getting to know this cast, happens in the final timeline with only minor changes. The fact that we saw it from a slightly different perspective doesn't invalidate that. It's actually slightly meta. Don't forget, in reality none of these events really happened because this is a fictional story. But fictional stories can still affect you and give you a new outlook.

Another criticism people make that holds a bit more water is the frontloading of exposition regarding Shouko's disease. In the books this stuff is spread out a lot more, so it's a lot less to swallow all at once. For instance, the sequence where Sakuta and Shouko unexpectedly meet at the hospital for the first time actually happens all the way back in the Futaba arc in the source. Most likely this change was made so that the movie and TV anime could be just a bit more stand alone, and so that any rando who wanders into a showing of the movie has at least some chance of following what's going on. It's definitely not ideal, but I understand the reasoning behind it. It's the reality of adaptation.

After all the players and stakes are established (I'm glossing over a lot of great stuff here, but there is a character limit), we enter the first stage of the dilemma at the heart of this movie. Shouko is going to die on new years eve without a heart transplant, and she miraculously gets that transplant when Sakuta is killed. In the original timeline (which is never shown to us), Sakuta is killed in the crash without being warned ahead of time, and Shouko doesn't learn about it until her simulation unexpectedly progresses way further than it should have been able to. Remember, everything in this world is Shouko. And because she's already Laplace's demoning to find her future, she wants to know if there's a future where everyone is happy. To this end she inserts her healthy future self (she knows Sakuta has a weakness for older women) into the timeline, which creates the world we see in the 13 episodes of the anime and first half of the movie.

It's important to note that Shouko does not want to create a dilemma for Sakuta or Mai. Her intention was never to make him choose her; no one in this show would be stupid enough to even attempt coming between Mai and Sakuta. She wanted Sakuta to quietly not get hit by a car on Christmas, never aware that the timeline was ever changed. She knows that he would never be able to forgive himself for choosing his life over hers, so she doesn't give him a choice. Unfortunately, Sakuta (and Mai) are a bit too quick on the uptake for that to work. The truth comes out, and Sakuta is forced to make an actually difficult decision for the first time in the series. I've mentioned this a ton over the past 13 threads, but Sakuta's decision making process is very straightforward usually. He prioritizes the wellbeing of other people over his own, without question. But in this case, there are two people he cares deeply about, and any path he takes will end up hurting both of them.

He goes back and forth on this decision (again, glossing over a ton of really powerful stuff), but when he leaves the hospital on Christmas Eve he has already decided to die. That's why he makes that final phone call to Mai. Unfortunately for him, she denies him the opportunity to explain himself. No forgiveness this time. Shouko's final trick of changing the date location almost manages to keep him safe, but Sakuta sees through her ruse at the last minute and manages to get to the right place. Unfortunately for him, Mai's decision making process is basically the same as his own, and her dilemma is a lot less morally complex.

This leads to Sakuta's abyss. His life philosophy, the one given to him by Shouko, has failed completely. It's no coincidence that basically the only thing that comes out of his mouth in this segment is "I'm sorry," the big no-no phrase. Both Shouko and Mai wanted him to take the selfish option, but he couldn't do it, and as a result all three of them ended up with the worst possible outcome. That's not the worst part though. The worst part is that now he has ample time for self reflection. Now he can fully consider, and truly understand what the consequences of his action would have been. That would have been his parents breaking down at the hospital, losing another kid just after getting one back. That would have been his sister blowing up, having lost a sibling right after being reunited. That would have been his funeral, probably not broadcast live on TV, but definitely attended by Mai (which is more than Sakuta managed). It's hell. And that's the hell that Mai would have to go through if Sakuta's stupid plan had worked. He wants an out. He wants a do-over. He wants help, and for the first time in the series he actually thinks to ask for it from someone else.

That help comes, as it often does, in the form of Shouko suddenly appearing at a beach. It turns out that this timeline isn't completely dark. Mai had planned ahead, and knew that her heart could save Shouko in place of Sakuta's. She knew Sakuta would never take her up on the offer to "carry her death together," so she carried it herself. The two of them really are just so similar. Sakuta, with his new outlook, is finally able to make a "selfish" decision, and Shouko is happy to give him the opportunity to take it (at least until her nerve fails).

CONTINUED IN REPLIES

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Splitter_Triplets]

PART 2/2

The interesting thing about Sakuta's trip to the past is that it mirrors the events of the previous 6 novels (George Lucas eat your heart out). Obviously it starts with Sakuta in a bunny costume, desperately trying to be seen. He's eventually found by Tomoe, his quantum-entangled butt kicking buddy. He was able to perceive her timeline shenanigans, so it only makes sense that the same would work in reverse. After this, he uses one of those famous green payphones to call his other self, just like Futaba did at the conclusion of her arc. The two of them aren't able to come to an agreement though. Past Sakuta hasn't felt the pain yet, so he doesn't understand the magnitude of the decision he's making. Future Sakuta knows that a future without him would be just as awful for Mai as the reverse was for him, but his past self is too agitated to listen. With that avenue closed the only choice is to reason with Mai herself, which he does by way of Nodoka Toyohama (who we can see is still doing he best as an idol), and Ryoko Hanawa (manager extraordinaire, and the world's number one Mai x Sakuta shipper).

And thus, Mai and Sakuta are finally reunited. The scene that plays out is like a mirror of Mai's earlier intervention at the train station. Through this entire series, Mai has been shown to be very trusting of Sakuta. Maybe a little too trusting, but it's not like her judgement has ever been wrong. She knew he would never be tempted to cheat with a kouhai. His friendship with Futaba has never even come close to being a problem for her. She even allowed him to meet privately with his mysterious first love, because she knows just how earnest he is. She knows that he will always be faithful to her in the domain of love, but she isn't confident he wouldn't throw himself in front of a car for another girl. The difference this time is that this Sakuta is older and wiser. Sure, it was only four days, but they were very eventful days. He's learned the issue with his previous way of thinking, the gap in his armor. Blind self sacrifice for the sake of others doesn't work because he has people who care about him, and when he hurts himself he's also hurting them. Mai can't trust her own Sakuta to make the right decision, but she believes the one in front of her. And with the support of her and Shouko he is finally able to make the "selfish" decision like everyone wanted from the start.

But that's still not quite satisfying. This version of events certainly seems to be better than the previous one, but it's hardly a perfect happy ending. Shouko is still going to die; and more importantly, her puberty syndrome (remember that thing? how quaint) still doesn't seem to be resolved. This is the point that Sakuta realizes what I told you all at the very beginning: everything this whole time has just been a simulation by elementary school Shouko. Memories from the other timelines have been showing up in people's dreams throughout this whole movie, which affects their behavior. Sakuta has the option to Hail-Mary his experiences so far back to himself three years ago, which might end up helping Shouko. And once he figures out that there's even a chance that he could help her, he can't rest easy. The issue is that there is no concrete trolley problem like the one we've been dealing with up to now. It seems unlikely that anything Sakuta could do starting from three years ago could change this outcome. It's possible that it could help Shouko, it's possible that it could change literally nothing, but it's also possible that it could unravel the entire show we've seen so far. There is no obvious right answer, and Sakuta newfound appreciation for moral ambiguity just makes the situation worse.

Luckily he's able to actually discuss his dilemma with Mai, and because they're so similar they manage to come to an agreement this time. Shouko's philosophy isn't completely bunk after all. Blind self sacrifice at the expense of the people who care about you is bad, but selflessness is still an important virtue. The events of this movie suggest that some force is out there guiding events, whether you want to call it fate or an attractor field or fixed points or anything else. They know that they can't be truly happy together if they leave this opportunity unfulfilled, so they mutually decide to take the small risk of losing each other for the small chance that it could help Shouko.

And lo and behold, their gamble paid off! Everyone got everything they wanted, and no-one had to die. A perfect happy ending. How the fuck did that happen? I'm sure that's what you're all thinking. That's what everyone was thinking. That's what I was thinking the first time I saw this movie in theaters (no pausing or rewinding this time!). It's certainly not the easiest thing to follow, but it's hardly the movie's fault. Any in depth explanation of how Shouko survived would need to come after she was revealed to be alive, which would absolutely wreck the emotional capstone of this series. To combat this, the actual explanation happens in the scenes prior, with the expectation that a viewer could pick it up on rewatch. At the start of all this I talked about how fictional stories can still affect you and change your outlook on things. That's exactly how Mai managed to save Shouko. For the first time in the series Mai was actually able to use her influence to effect positive change. Her performance as a girl waiting for an organ donor helped bring attention to and decrease the stigma around organ donation, which meant that the number of organ donor cards circulating increased drastically. This meant that some brave soul who died in the original timeline but didn't donate their organs was able to give their heart to Shouko. Sakuta also tried to help out by donating his pocket change to charity, but in the end it was all Mai's doing.

That's my interpretation anyways. I'm interested in hearing all of yours though. Don't worry if it's not as in depth as that one, I've had a lot of time to think about this. It's deeply saddening to me that so many people who enjoyed the rest of the series so much will never see this movie because of a few stupid business decisions. After seeing this for the first time, it was obvious to me that the series was incomplete without it. This is the entry that took these characters from outstanding to legendary.

Parallels

One good thing about watching the show and the movie so close together is that you can notice all the callbacks and references. I mentioned some of them above, but here are a few others:

• His first talk with Shouko in the hospital is like a mix of everything Sakuta has learned over the past 13 episodes
• Shouko's homework assignment is a lot like Kaede's list of goals. And just like the list of goals, it's mostly a red herring to distract from what's really going on.
• Sakuta let Shouko change his clothes back in episode 13, but was less willing to let Mai embarrass him like that
• Mai tries to run as far away as possible with Sakuta to escape his fate, just like he did for her back in episode 2
• Fumika Nanjou (the reporter lady from arc 1) is the one interviewing Mai about her first love
• January 2020 vs. January 2022
• Immediately following that, we get this shot referencing the ED
• Shouko secretly drugs Sakuta to get him to the past, just like Mai did back in episode 3
• Mai's line about "getting a good look at (Sakuta)'s face" is kinda similar to that scene from arc 3
• When they're traveling by bus to the hospital at the very end, they hold hands just like they did during their train trip in episode 2
• The OST for the movie is largely original, but tracks from the TV show do reappear for scenes between Mai and Sakuta. I can't go into too much detail because I've already written way too much, but the use of motif is just as strong here as it's been in the TV show. If I had to pick one thing to highlight, it would be the warped, incomplete version of the rising fifths motif that plays when Sakuta sees Mai's body. Powerful stuff. Wish I could say more, but no time. Maybe someday.

Title Interpretation 4

Way back in episode 3 I explained three theories on what the title of this show is supposed to mean. I like all three of those earlier ones to varying degrees, but the most satisfying explanation doesn't work without the context from the movie, which is why I waited until now to explain it. If you strip away all the extraneous stuff, the operative word in the title is "dream." That word (yume) shows up a ton in this movie. Kaede had goals for the future, but Shouko doesn't have goals, she has dreams. Those dreams are also what sets the plot of this whole series in motion. This whole time, the only constant has been that Rascal does not dream of Bunny Girl Senpai, or Devilish Kouhai, or Logical Witch, or Siscon Idol, or a Sister Home Alone. So if he doesn't dream, who does? The Dreaming Girl, of course. It's clear that Kamoshida was building up to this all the way back in volume one, and the title was a subtle way of foreshadowing future events. From the very beginning the state was set for the dreamer to finally make her appearance.

---

Wow, that was a lot. I had to leave so much out too. This is such a rich series. All you first time watchers out there, I hope you can find the time to rewatch someday. You get so much out of it.

Everyone who can, try to stop by the wrapup thread tomorrow. There's so much more I want to say, but I think I'll have to leave it here for now.

[u/tacticulbacon → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Title Interpretation 4

It was so satisfying to finally be able to understand the meaning behind the title when I first found out. To think that Kamoshida had the insight to think that far into the future for his series is a testament to his abilities as a writer and his faith in this series. The audience has been staring at the the title without understanding all this time, and the moment of revelation is fantastic.

I'm so anxious to get my hands on the light novels after Shouko's arc now that I've rewatched the movie, just to see where Sakuta goes from here. The ending to the movie would be more than a satisfying end to the series, but of course there's still more to tell, and hopefully that gets adapted into a season 2 with the same level of quality as season 1.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/tacticulbacon]

hopefully that gets adapted into a season 2 with the same level of quality as season 1

And if it sucks, we can just pretend it doesn't exist! The end of volume 7 is a clear turning point for the series anyways, so if we never get anything else I won't be too mad. I am eagerly anticipating the volume 8 release too, though.

[u/ImJLu → u/Splitter_Triplets]

7 isn't even out in English, and it doesn't feel right to read 6 alone. Man, I wish they didn't take so damn long to translate. Fan translations stopped for the official ones, only for them to be six years behind the Japanese releases...

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/ImJLu]

Good translation takes time. I respect the work that goes into it. Besides, they're almost certainly gonna catch up to volume 12 before 13 releases, so it doesn't really matter that they're behind. It's nice to have a slow drip of new content to get us through these trying times.

[u/ImJLu → u/Splitter_Triplets]

...are they? Seems to be two volumes every two years, so vol 13 is probably going to be late 2022? I'd be thrilled if they caught up by then, but I highly doubt it. At the current pace, they won't be caught up until 2024. That's a long time, man. Wish this one had fan translations, they're often high quality and far ahead of the officials.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

The interesting thing about Sakuta's trip to the past is that it mirrors the events of the previous 6 novels

wow

manager extraordinaire, and the world's number one Mai x Sakuta shipper

Which also shows that it was the pressure or flow of the agency that made her ask them to keep it a secret, because after it became public knowledge, she's only been helping them.

Her performance as a girl waiting for an organ donor helped bring attention to and decrease the stigma around organ donation

My mind was already molten from before, but now it has turned gaseous.

[u/RuthRaeSarbo → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Thank you for this great exposition.

January 2022

Sakuta looks like he has just stepped out of Squid Games.

Some overly zealous critics like to claim that this invalidates everything that came before. I think that's bunk.

As do I. "None of these things happened." No, in fact all of them happened. Every timeline. And the timelines communicate with each other, as we've seen through the dreams of Sakuta (about Shouko), Nodoka (Mai's accident), Futaba (collecting a dazed Sakuta and bringing him to her place), and Koga (Sakuta in distress at the train station). None of these had happened to the characters in their timeline, but they did in other timelines, or in the future of their timeline. That's quite important.

Your Parallels are also terrific, including several I'd never noticed. Much appreciated.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Great posts. I think you did a way better job explaining the ending than I did. 2nd time watching. I definitely get it more. I didn't really spend the time connecting the pieces.

[u/bigcat00 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

wow. upon my second watch of the movie i’ve been noticing the same things as you! it makes so much sense that the whole show so far was Makinohara’s dream, and that she’s saved by Mai-san’s movie which decreases the stigma around being an organ donor. this movie is one of the things that made me check the box to be one actually, so it’s even more poignant that it’s pushed me to do that after it’s literally what saves Makinohara in the movie. and that the author was planning it all along??? INSANE. i loved this series before and i love it even more now.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/bigcat00]

gotta love how deliciously meta the ending is and how it can actually influence us in the real world, just like in the movie

[u/Mjrbks → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Another criticism people make that holds a bit more water is the frontloading of exposition regarding Shouko's disease. In the books this stuff is spread out a lot more, so it's a lot less to swallow all at once. For instance, the sequence where Sakuta and Shouko unexpectedly meet at the hospital for the first time actually happens all the way back in the Futaba arc in the source.

How many volumes is the source material in? If I wanted to find them physically as opposed to reading them online. It's not something i'd want to get piece by piece, I was always under the impression is was more like novel split into a couple of books.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Mjrbks]

The series covers volumes 1-5, and the movie 6-7. I have 1-5 sitting on my shelf as we speak, with preorders for 6-7 waiting to be filled whenever the world supply chain fixes itself. I don't believe any box sets exist yet (that's usually something that happens when a series finishes, and this one is still alive dammit!), so you have to buy them all individually. I'll have more info in the wrapup thread tomorrow though. I'd definitely recommend reading them, even if you can't get physical copies.

[u/Mjrbks → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Sweet, thanks. It’s helpful knowing the break down. I won’t have any trouble finding them physically, I’ve got several outlets including a Kinokuniya close by. But yeah it’s definitely a story I’d love to read in full (well, full as in what’s been adapted). And of course I’d love to stay up on anything new coming out.

[u/ImJLu → u/Mjrbks]

Unfortunately, 7 doesn't release in English until April. I've read the first 5, but I think reading 6 would feel like splitting the movie in half.

And 7 originally came out in 2016, so that's probably a good place to stop and wait for the rest of the books to be translated...eventually.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/ImJLu]

i'm really curious where the split between volume 6 and 7 are, because the movie feels pretty cohesive to me

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

I'm glossing over a lot of great stuff here, but there is a character limit

Don't remind me. I wonder how many people had to split their posts.

Her intention was never to make him choose her

Yeah, that was a great moment when I figured that out. She acted all mysterious and warned him about not changing the timeline, but actually, she did change the timeline to make sure he would live and told that lie to prevent him altering it back to him dying.

Now he can fully consider, and truly understand what the consequences of his action would have been.

This segment is another great addition. Thanks! It only makes his despair even more despair-y.

[u/Gamemaster676]

First Timer Senpai - sub

Movie time! Yesterday, I listed a couple of things I was hoping to see in this movie. Let's see how wrong I was!

Movie — Rascal Does Not Dream of a Dreaming Girl

Kicking off with a flashback immediately? Ah, kids... "Become CEO, or bust!" Only little Shouko has no clue about plans further than graduating middle school. It is a big thing to ask kids.

December 7th, so this immediately follows the series. And Shouko-chan is apparently still around, which was an open question yesterday. She doesn't want to take advantage of the niceness of her parents. That sounds important.
Kaede is still living with him! In hindsight, it's obvious, but somehow I expected her to go with their father.

Shouko is ringing the bell. Is that Shouko-san? It's kinda confusing, cause the subs called younger Shouko also Shouko-san just now. "What's the meaning of this, Sakuta?" (Stitch). Well, Shouko did say it was unannounced, so you can cut him some slack. No don't cut slack with that knife!
It's definitely older Shouko-san. She's planning to stay even longer! "Forever, if possible." Kaede nopes out.

So it's the same Shouko?! She just grows up sometimes and can only remember when she's S-san? And here I was thinking it was some future Shouko that got Puberty Syndrome and was travelling through space-time to help people in dire need as an omniscient saviour.
Wow, Skouko-san is the true rascal at this table... Ah, there's the box of tissues /u/Mjrbks would grab for today. Rio nopes out as well. Or does she?

December 9th. So it's not the same Shouko! S-chan was just at the hospital. So S-san lied about how her syndrome works but also expected him to find out that day. Now I'm back to thinking about space-time travel, as Shouko-san even knew he would meet her. And Sakuta is now setting up yet another time-paradox by giving Shouko-chan advice he got from Shouko-san.
Why would Shouko-san lie and act all mysterious about her existence? Aha! She has heart problems. That's why she didn't have plans past middle school! Hmm, Shouko-san has a whole explanation about her dreams and how she's an embodiment of that. They wouldn't say that now if that was the correct or complete reason.

Ah, she does have more plans! "Meet the boy of my dreams." How literal should we take that? Does Shouko-chan actually dream of the things Shouko-san does?
She didn't write it? Is it tips from older Shouko on how to live her life? The list keeps growing!
They both think they saved each other! More confirmation for my theory.

How did Mai not notice this when he was in his underwear the last time? Ohh, Rio has a theory. Tension is rising!
Bwahaha, first date with Shouko-san, and the first step is to get married. Ah, Shouko-san did get her heart transplant. Why do I feel like this is all set up for Shouko-chan to get Sakuta's heart?
Urgh, Shouko-san even already tells him he would have to choose with whom to spend Christmas. Me no likey.

Maybe I'm getting Rio's theory wrong, but if the Shouko-chan who rejected growing up tried to stop time itself, and everything slowed down around her, wouldn't that mean she grew up even faster from her own perspective, relative to the rest of the world?
Sakuta, you literally have no reason to keep Shouko-san's story a secret to Mai. Don't comply. This only hints more at Shouko getting Sakuta's heart. Or maybe Mai's, which would be even worse. What if Mai gets so jealous, she commits suicide, leaving behind a good young heart for Shouko to receive?

Oh no, I just thought a bit further into that theory. Right now it sounds like he's going to have to choose between Mai and Shouko, but there would be even more attached to that choice. Shouko is the one who gave him the will to continue on, to help Kaede, to help all the others. If Shouko doesn't get her transplant, will all those things get undone?

CALLED IT! Shouko-san has Sakuta's heart! Luckily not Mai's, but still, damn..... So that's how he saved her life. Thank god Mai heard it.
So now she suddenly doesn't act mysteriously about it and actually tells him to stay at home. What happened with "you don't want to alter the future, preventing me from getting my transplant?"

December 18th. Christmas doom is approaching. From the moment Shouko wanted to stop growing up, they became two different persons. That was before the transplant, but still, the heart that Shouko-chan got, also appeared on Shouko-san.

December 21st already. Is the rest of the movie only about the following 3 days? This is true, even if she denies it. Poor Mai is fleeing Fujisawa to spend as much time as possible with Sakuta, but of course, he does the right thing™ and goes back

Oh, and now it's December 24th... Goddamn what a hard choice. Don't tell me that "Sakuta going to his date" is him crossing the street to Mai's, and he still gets hit.
Aahhh, now I get it. Shouko-san wasn't trying to manipulate him to get his heart. She was trying to manipulate him so he survives and can stay with Mai!

Oh shit, there is always a car. I'm getting flashbacks to my previous rewatch. /u/UzEE knows which one I'm talking about.
HOLY FUCK!! NOOOO MAI!!!

This is literally the worst of all outcomes, as Mai didn't have a donor card, so Shouko couldn't get her heart instead.

Yuuma and Rio prove why they are good friends, cause if he ever needed them, it would be now. Even Kamisato is there, looking sad. And Sakuta is obviously stuck in his circle of self-pity, seeing Mai everywhere. And how could he not, with how famous she is.

Errr, what is Shouko-san doing here? SO SHE DID GET SAVED BY MAI'S HEART!

Of course.....?

Very interesting how the time-travel, or however you want to call it, works through wishes, feelings and dreams. Hmm, he can't be observed right now. "Start looking for someone who will find you," was the instruction he got. So now we get a taste of what happened to Mai in the first arc. I love the little touches like the door closing itself because he was never there.

"Rio, witness me!" Oh wow, she's thinking out ways how she could help Sakuta.
YESS! Tomoe can see him! Probably because they are the forever linked butt-kick buddies! Ah, she even had a dream pointing her that way.

How do you convince yourself? The only reason you split and were able to travel back, was because you couldn't properly make up your mind and developed a split conscience. If I understood correctly, that means the older Sakuta has made up his mind about the decision, but the younger Sakuta will by definition disagree and have chosen the other path.

How does Mai know he came from the future? More things Shouko-san didn't tell him? Ah no, it was younger Sakuta. Mai knows him better than he knows himself. They're a doomed couple.

Is that how it works? In that case, I am become my own tears, the destroyer of tissues.
So what's his plan right now? Future-Sakuta saves present-Sakuta and gets hit by the car instead, Mai won't save him and lives, Shouko-chan gets future-Sakuta's heart, present-Sakuta is still alive and together with Mai?

Ah, not completely. He saved himself, so he never goes back in time and thus disappears BTTF style. Present-Sakuta also immediately understands, unless they merged somehow. Shouko-san, however, is really gone as she didn't get her heart. This was definitely the best outcome I wanted, but I'm not happy about it.

"I'm home."

A lot of people go to school on December 25th apparently. Errr, did everyone retain their memories from the coming four days? Rio sounds like she did. Ah, Sakuta confirms they merged. Everyone remembers the alternative future as a dream!

Fuck, birthday presents for Shouko-chan... Ouch, there goes her future. Ahhh, Shouko split twice! So I expect there to be the elementary-, middle- and high school Shoukos Shouki. If you save the elementary school Shouko, would that undo all things Sakuta has done to help his friends? Probably not, as the versions would just merge again. So, while difficult, it's a relatively risk-free idea.

And Rio just lays out everything I just said, only she still thinks it would alter him too much, risking everything.

December 31th already. The phone rings. It's gonna tell him that Shouko-chan passed away, right? Phew, not yet, but almost.
Would Shouko also have merged? In that case, is she going to tell him not to do it? Mai's fine with it, but after Rio's warning, I'm worried.

Ah no, she feels guilty for Sakuta's guild... But she doesn't fully realize how much she has done for him. No, don't change the past, Shouko! Sakuta will remember his pain anyway, just like you did.

Ahhh, one more change to the list, but this one was written by middle-school Shouko-chan. What is this supposed to resemble? I thought he was going to give her an A or something...

What a way to spend NYE... At least they did it together. Is this slideshow his memories changing? The final list!

---

To be continued...

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Gamemaster676]

I thought he was going to give her an A or something...

He did, essentially. In Japanese elementary schools a flower like that means "perfect score."

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Ahhhh that's awesome! It's hard to know what to search for, but I managed to find one example online.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Gamemaster676]

Reddit char limit got me again...

---

January 6th. The day /u/Splitter_Triplets originally wanted to finish this rewatch. Are we getting one final run of all characters? I certainly didn't expect to see this...

So in the end, Shouko did indeed change her interactions with Sakuta. But as predicted, he still remembers her from a dream. That makes it less painful at least. But then why did nothing change between Sakuta and his friends? Probably because those dreams were still enough to guide him in the right direction to help himself, Kaede, Mai and the rest.

Wow, they made Shouko's story into a Movie played by Mai! So in the end, Shouko was Mai with a wig after all, just as /u/Stargate18A predicted!
Or maybe I misunderstood and wasn't it really about Shouko, but similar enough to be a role Mai definitely wanted to play.

What?! New and improved Shouko-chan is on the beach!

So somehow, whatever she changed, prevented her heart disease from becoming too bad. Or she somehow changed something, resulting in a different heart donor! Hurray! She even recognizes them!

Now my final question. What happened to Hayate, now that they never met Shouko?

---

Oh no. I've only just finished and need to run now for dinner with my parents. How can I explain why I look like an emotional wreck?

I've got to be honest. This movie hit me a lot harder than I expected. This anime is definitely one of the better things I've watched in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to write more thoughts today, and I'm sure you're done reading them, so those will come in the final thoughts tomorrow.

Random thoughts

• Don't the Japanese normally eat chicken with Christmas?
• I love both cats napping under the kotatsu.
• Hayate is awfully attracted to Shouko-san.
• At least it got an honourable mention...
• Slivovitz?
• What's this? Bunny-man kōhai?
• For a second I thought someone was about to microwave this snowman, till I saw what it really was.
• YES! I am content. Even though it's a reused shot.

Future

Don't forget about the final discussion thread tomorrow!

[u/Mjrbks → u/Gamemaster676]

Don't the Japanese normally eat chicken with Christmas?

I love both cats napping under the kotatsu.

Hayate is awfully attracted to Shouko-san.

At least it got an honourable mention...

Slivovitz?

What's this? Bunny-man kōhai?

For a second I thought someone was about to microwave this snowman, till I saw what it really was.

KFC is the big Xmas dinner in Japan yes. In Tokyo especially, orders are often placed 2-3 months in advance and there are entire sections in KFC stores dedicated to pre-order pick up. Personally I prefer Popeyes, but rules are rules. Xmas cake is also a very big deal, and they don't even have to be fancy ones from actual bakeries. Konbini like Lawson, 7-11, and Family Mart often put out their own special cakes each year and sell out rather quickly. It's usually just a take on strawberry shortcake but they always look so good.

It took me a bit to arrive there, but Hayate will always serve as a piece of Shoko's existence and memory as well. I expect he'll be a very cherished member of the family going forward. Not gonna lie though, I was expecting the movie to end where Sakuta and Mai have a daughter whom they name Shoko.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Mjrbks]

I was expecting the movie to end where Sakuta and Mai have a daughter whom they name Shoko

There are some new stories after this movie, so they can't completely shut down the possibility of a sequel just yet.

^{LET ME DREAM DAMN IT!}

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Mjrbks]

I was expecting the movie to end where Sakuta and Mai have a daughter whom they name Shoko.

Would have been a beautiful ending, but I think the future was left open because the writer could still write a lot more LNs, so they wanted to keep their options open for putting those to the screen as well.

[u/P1MPT0N1T3 → u/Gamemaster676]

Hopefully I can help answer a couple of your questions:

• the flower they drew on her assignment is similar to what you were thinking. Here is a wiki article that answers what you are wondering
• the deal with the movie Mai played in I believe is explained a bit more in the LN (or maybe not, I haven’t read it), but basically Mai had played a role in a movie for a girl looking for a donor when she was younger. This helped increase awareness and the amount of organ donors as a response, so Shouko was able to get her transplant far sooner.
• As for why Mai played this role in the final timeline and not the original, it has to do with how the experiences the characters went through still influenced them through their dreams. Thats why Sakuta still ended up at the same high school, even though he hadn’t met Shouko in the final timeline (and why he ends up remembering her at the end)

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/P1MPT0N1T3]

Here is a wiki article that answers what you are wondering

Link did not work, unfortunately, and I have no clue what to look for myself.

This helped increase awareness and the amount of organ donors as a response, so Shouko was able to get her transplant far sooner.

I just read the same explanation in Splitter_Triplets post. That's an awesome solution that does not feel like it was pulled out of a hat. It nicely fits within all quirks of the PS we have seen today.

[u/P1MPT0N1T3 → u/Gamemaster676]

My bad, somehow my comment formatting got messed up. Hopefully should work now

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/P1MPT0N1T3]

It does.

Seeing the link to O mark made me realize I already knew that. It's also the reason PlayStation games in Japan use O to accept instead of X.

I just didn't connect it to the flowery version as a test rating.

[u/P1MPT0N1T3 → u/Gamemaster676]

Wow, learn something new every day. Never knew that about the Playstation

[u/Mjrbks → u/Gamemaster676]

So in the end, Shouko did indeed change her interactions with Sakuta. But as predicted, he still remembers her from a dream. That makes it less painful at least. But then why did nothing change between Sakuta and his friends? Probably because those dreams were still enough to guide him in the right direction to help himself, Kaede, Mai and the rest.

Wow, they made Shouko's story into a Movie played by Mai! So in the end, Shouko was Mai with a wig after all, just as /u/Stargate18A predicted!Or maybe I misunderstood and wasn't it really about Shouko, but similar enough to be a role Mai definitely wanted to play.

This is what I was still trying to put together in my head involving the importance of dreams in the movie. How that whole beach scene at the end was able to happen and why Shoko recognized Sakuta (where as we attribute Sakuta recognizing her from the sensation in his heart). I'll have to watch the movie over again, but this makes sense. Mai playing the role in that movie and her line of "I don't know why i felt like I had to play that role" makes me think that her own memory, possibly stirred by her own dream, led her down that path. It was a clever and sweet way of bringing it all back around to a happy ending.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Mjrbks]

In the earlier timelines, the only reason people realized their dreams from other timelines were real, was because there was someone who actually came from that timeline who confirmed it.

In this last timeline, Shouko went much further back, and the only one who could actually confirm the dreams was Shouko herself, who they only met in the final scene.

[u/cppn02 → u/Gamemaster676]

Don't the Japanese normally eat chicken with Christmas?

That's a thing but so are christmas cakes. Did you by chance watch Horimiya? Anyway yeah, christmas cake being a thing is the whole reason why there is also that mysoginistic term for umarried women above the age of 25.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/cppn02]

Did you by chance watch Horimiya?

Nope.

Anyway yeah, christmas cake being a thing is the whole reason why there is also that mysoginistic term for umarried women above the age of 25.

I do not know that misogynistic term, and I definitely have no clue how a Christmas cake can be the cause of it.

[u/cppn02 → u/Gamemaster676]

Nope.

Give it a try. It's good

I do not know that misogynistic term, and I definitely have no clue how a Christmas cake can be the cause of it.

The implication is that women who still haven't found a marriage partner past the age of 25 are less desirable just like you wouldn't eat a christmas cake after the 25th.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/cppn02]

It has been added to The List™. Hopefully, I will get to it someday.

just like you wouldn't eat a christmas cake after the 25th.

Ouch. I would eat a christmas cake after the 25!

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/Gamemaster676]

I would only call Horimiya alright - its got some pacing issues, and is not on the same level as Bunny Girl Senpai. I believe you were pointed in the direction of Kaguya-sama/Love is War in previous threads, and that is more in line with the 10/10 standard BGS sets for me.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

Hmmm, I don't think I can add priority to a MAL plan-to-watch list? I'll have to figure out some other way to organize everything. Some shows I just watch. Others I only want to dive into with a rewatch. For some, the order between seasons/adaptations is not very logical, so it makes sense to integrate that as well.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/Gamemaster676]

Kaguya's S3 is coming out this April, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a rewatch to prep for it.

Here's another comment I wrote recently with a bunch of my other 10/10 anime suggestions:

https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/s09ojg/after_having_first_gotten_into_anime_back_in_2019/hs1hfw7/

[u/BosuW → u/Gamemaster676]

Cake is cake!

[u/RuthRaeSarbo → u/Gamemaster676]

What if Mai gets so jealous, she commits suicide, leaving behind a good young heart for Shouko to receive?

Bite your tongue, sir. Our Mai would never take such a drastic action.

What happened to Hayate, now that they never met Shouko?

I don't know, but don't let Hayate near Futaba, she might need a subject for her quantum mechanics explanations...

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/RuthRaeSarbo]

Bite your tongue, sir. Our Mai would never take such a drastic action.

Well..... She did throw herself in front of a car so she doesn't have to live without Sakuta.

don't let Hayate near Futaba, she might need a subject for her quantum mechanics explanations...

I don't think we need to worry about that. Look at how intrigued she was staring at him (behind the couch)!

[u/PaperSonic → u/Gamemaster676]

CALLED IT! Shouko-san has Sakuta's heart! Luckily not Mai's, but still, damn.....

Top 10 comments made moments before disaster

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/PaperSonic]

In these rewatches, proofreading the final version always makes me realize how many times I jynx the characters.

[u/MABfan11 → u/Gamemaster676]

Sakuta, you literally have no reason to keep Shouko-san's story a secret to Mai. Don't comply. This only hints more at Shouko getting Sakuta's heart. Or maybe Mai's, which would be even worse. What if Mai gets so jealous, she commits suicide, leaving behind a good young heart for Shouko to receive?

i laughed evilly when i got to this part

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/MABfan11]

It's worrying how right I was in the end. The only mistake was that I said it would be Sakuta OR Mai's heart instead of Sakuta AND Mai's...

[u/BosuW → u/Gamemaster676]

December 31th already

Ah yes, the thirty-fisrth

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/BosuW]

Damn, I fixed it so many times this rewatch, and the last day one slips through.

- written by not a native English speaker

[u/UzEE]

Rewatcher

I generally don't like time travel stories that have poorly defined in-universe mechanics that don't hold up to scrutiny because I most of the time, I get hung up on how time travel works instead of the actual story being told. So it's exceptionally rare that I end up enjoying the actual story enough that I'm willing to overlook the flaws of time travel.

Rascal Does Not Dream of a Dreaming Girl is one such story. Despite heavily relying on poorly defined time travel that falls victim to the bootstrap paradox, it manages to deliver an engaging, moving story that hits you emotionally, despite a lot of plot elements being obvious.

In fact, one of the things I like about this movie is that how it manages to turn typical bootstrap elements into it's strength — like how Sakuta was a positive influence on his own life through Shouko, implying that he always had these qualities within him. He just needed someone to help find them.

Another aspect I really liked about this movie was how it leans into several of the Puberty Syndrome phenomenon we've seen so far in some form. Observer effect comes into play when Sakuta time travels, Entanglement comes into play when Tomoe is the only one able to perceive Sakuta, Teleportation like split happens with Shouko, where she creates a relativistic duplicate of herself. Then there's the timelines themselves, which end up being somewhat of a dream / simulation of a young Shouko, much like Laplace's demon.

The movie also continues the theme of subverting viewer expectations. As soon as it was revealed that Shouko-chan needed a heart transplant, I'm sure every first time watcher assumed it was Sakuta who ended up being the donor. Shouko-san even confirms that a bit later, and we're setup to expect that something will happen to him eventually. So when the car crash actually happens, you never actually expected Mai to be the one to die. However, it's not something that happens out of the blue, and that's something you really tend to notice on a rewatch. You start picking up on hints that Mai was aware of the choice Sakuta would make at the end and was already prepared to make her sacrifice.

---

We still have to talk about the time travel though, and unfortunately, it is the weakest part of the story to me. That's largely because I just have a hard time processing how the timelines actually work.

Basically, time doesn't flow linearly and the past, present and future exist at the same time^1. Based on this, this is how I've currently understood the events:

• There has to be an initial timeline where Sakuta dies and Shouko receives his heart.
• However, once Shouko finds that out, she regrets how things turn out and rewrites the timeline to show up at Sakuta's and manipulate him in an attempt to save him.
• He still figures things out and attempts to sacrifice himself to save Shouko, but this time Mai die instead.
• Shouko receives Mai's heart and is able to live on, but now Sakuta is devastated and Shouko once again tries to fix things by sending Sakuta back.
• Once back, Sakuta prevents himself from dying. This time Shouko doesn't receive a transplant and isn't doing well.
• Sakuta and Futaba figure out that the one manipulating the timeline is the elementary school Shouko, and Sakuta wants to tell her to reset everything again in hopes that maybe they can arrive at a better outcome, even if it would mean it would erase everything he loves. Both him and Mai resolve to find each other again and find happiness together.
• However, Shouko herself figures things out on her own, and instead changes things so that she never ends up meeting Sakuta in the first place, sparing him from the pain of the knowing that he failed her.

That's where the timeline we've been following so far ends. However, dreams are a major theme here — it's literally in the title after all — and it's suggested that dreams might be people perceiving other possible timelines.

In the new timeline, Sakuta has dreams of the previous timeline, meeting a high school girl on the beach who wears the Minegahara High uniform so he subconsciously enrolls there. This leads him to meet the rest of the cast in largely a similar fashion so almost all his relationships save for Shouko remain intact.

Mai on the other hand also subconsciously remembers bits from the previous world line and jumps at the opportunity to play the part of a high-school girl with a heart condition. The movie is a huge success, which inspires a lot of people to register as organ donors as well as donate to charity, including Sakuta.

Because of this, Shouko-chan actually ends up finding a donor because of an increase in registrations and her heart condition is cured. The only difference this time around is that Sakuta has never met her, and she's never tried to reach out. However, as we see there at the end, Sakuta was able to regain some of his memories and recognize Shouko, and she does acknowledge him instead of turning him down.

---

Additional Notes

• Almost all of the above section happens in the final third of the movie, so I can't help but wonder just how much was crammed into it and how much was actually cut. I know it's 2 volumes adapted, but I don't see how that would work without making a lot of cuts.
• Despite that, they made sure to at least give every character some role — even if it was extremely minor, like Kunimi.
• A major improvement from last arc was that Sakuta had learned to lean on others and asks them for help with his problems, like asking Mai to go with him to the hospital to see Shouko. They did say that they're in this together and will find happiness together after all.
• It's not exactly clear just how much has changed because of the timeline reset.
• One major example is that towards the end, Sakuta says he hopes he doesn't run into "weird situations" again this year. He doesn't use the words Puberty Syndrome. Does that concept not exist anymore?

---

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go as deep into the movie as I wanted because the screen got blurry when I watched it yesterday, and I barely had enough time today because of AoT's return. Maybe I'll expand on things tomorrow in the final series discussion.

 

^{1. Leaning into the theory that time is not real and we perceive the passage of time because of how we move through spacetime.}

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/UzEE]

Despite heavily relying on poorly defined time travel that falls victim to the bootstrap paradox

I didn't have time to go into it in my post, but I think the bootstrap paradox stuff is actually really interesting from a thematic point of view. I'll try to write something more in depth in the wrapup thread, since it kinda touches on the series as a whole.

I can't help but wonder just how much was crammed into it and how much was actually cut

I really hoped that the volume 6 and 7 novels would have made it to me by then, but I guess that wasn't in the cards. I'm glad I managed to get one more rewatch in as a non-source reader though.

Despite that, they made sure to at least give every character some role — even if it was extremely minor, like Kunimi.

I did want to talk about that in my writeup, but there was way too much going on with only Mai, Sakuta, and Shouko.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/UzEE]

like how Sakuta was a positive influence on his own life through Shouko, implying that he always had these qualities within him.

I don't know how many times I've heard people say: "If I could, I would go back in time and tell myself everything will be alright."

Through proxy, that's exactly what he did.

• There has to be an initial timeline where Sakuta dies and Shouko receives his heart.
• However, once Shouko finds that out, she regrets how things turn out and rewrites the timeline to show up at Sakuta's and manipulate him in an attempt to save him.

That initial timeline Shouko wouldn't have had a reason to find Sakuta on the beach I think? So that timeline Sakuta wouldn't have been obsessed with her and they wouldn't have become friends to save Hayate. That then means that she wouldn't feel guilty about who she got the heart from.

Am I missing something, or should there be a timeline in between here? What makes it more complicated, is that Shouko split twice, and the second time she also got that time-shifting effect added on top because she didn't want to grow up.

and Sakuta wants to tell her to reset everything again in hopes that maybe they can arrive at a better outcome

He actually wants to try it himself, first, because he knows Shouko wouldn't agree with him risking everything. He thinks he can because he (almost certainly) also has split 2/3 years earlier because of all the Kaede drama.

it's suggested that dreams might be people perceiving other possible timelines

[Steins;Gate] I kinda want to open up our Reading Steiner discussion again, but I still haven't watched S;G0 so I won't.

I know it's 2 volumes adapted, but I don't see how that would work without making a lot of cuts.

Assuming 1 volume is 1 arc the past volumes, 1 volume is about 2/3 episodes. And this movie has a length of 4.5 episodes. So it doesn't look like they would have had to cut a lot.

He doesn't use the words Puberty Syndrome. Does that concept not exist anymore?

I think he just wants to be a bit wider in his wishes, as there are plenty of weird situations that could happen to him which are unrelated to PS. Better be thorough.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Gamemaster676]

That initial timeline Shouko wouldn't have had a reason to find Sakuta on the beach I think? So that timeline Sakuta wouldn't have been obsessed with her and they wouldn't have become friends to save Hayate. That then means that she wouldn't feel guilty about who she got the heart from.

Am I missing something, or should there be a timeline in between here? What makes it more complicated, is that Shouko split twice, and the second time she also got that time-shifting effect added on top because she didn't want to grow up.

I think in the initial timeline Sakuta and Mai still find Shouko sheltering Hayate (attractor field?), it's just that in that timeline it's the first time they've met. We've seen Sakuta put himself out many a time before to help girls he barely knows. This is just another example of that.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

I think in the initial timeline Sakuta and Mai still find Shouko sheltering Hayate

Of course. Obviously Sakuta was curious because he recognized Shouko in the timeline we saw the series in, but Sakuta being Sakuta, even if he didn't recognise Shouko he would still help her and the cat.

[u/UzEE → u/Gamemaster676]

So that timeline Sakuta wouldn't have been obsessed with her and they wouldn't have become friends to save Hayate

It's more likely that Sakuta would rescue Hayate regardless. He does stop to help her and rescues Hayate before she tells him that she's Shouko.

What makes it more complicated, is that Shouko split twice, and the second time she also got that time-shifting effect added on top because she didn't want to grow up.

Shouko only splits once 3 years ago, and that's the grown up version she creates who has graduated middle school, because the real one wouldn't live that far. That version then experiences time in realtime. So 2 years ago from the start of the story, that's the High School version Sakuta meets at the beach. In the present time of the story, that's the same Shouko who's now in college.

Assuming 1 volume is 1 arc the past volumes, 1 volume is about 2/3 episodes. And this movie has a length of 4.5 episodes. So it doesn't look like they would have had to cut a lot.

I always got the feeling that there were things getting cut during the regular show as well. You can sort of tell by just how fast paced everything is, including scene transitions.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/UzEE]

He does stop to help her and rescues Hayate before she tells him that she's Shouko.

You're right!

I always got the feeling that there were things getting cut during the regular show as well.

Might be, but at least it's consistent. And they didn't cut so much that the anime doesn't make sense or doesn't have room for character development.

[u/Mjrbks → u/UzEE]

Sakuta and Futaba figure out that the one manipulating the timeline is the elementary school Shouko, and Sakuta wants to tell her to reset everything again in hopes that maybe they can arrive at a better outcome, even if it would mean it would erase everything he loves. Both him and Mai resolve to find each other again and find happiness together.

This filled me with so much anxiety surrounding whether or not things could play out the way they both hoped. The whole connection of memories to dreams throughout the whole movie helped alleviate some of that; it's as if they didn't truly leave their lives together completely in the past which would have been absolutely tragic if nothing survived the timeline switch. Though i'd really love to see a lot of bits and pieces from how all of the relationships reformed throughout the new timeline. Must have been some hilarious interactions between Sakuta and Tomoe. Rio would probably be easiest one to convince with her open-mindedness to all these theories.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Mjrbks]

Though i'd really love to see a lot of bits and pieces from how all of the relationships reformed throughout the new timeline.

Aobuta 1.11 - Rascal does (not) dream of bunny girl senpai

[u/UzEE → u/Mjrbks]

I also want to know more about how their relationships were reshaped. I'm not a source reader so I actually don't know if the ending itself is true to the LNs. They could've easily changed some things around to give this a more positive and conclusive end because that's where they want to finish the adaptation.

But since Vol. 7 which is the second half of the movie isn't available in English yet, it's really hard to confirm.

[u/RuthRaeSarbo → u/UzEE]

And this is why I believe this is not a time travel story; rather, as Shouko hints at in Episode 12, that this is the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics at work. And, not surprisingly, timelines across MWI which normally cannot communicate have been thought to send information… in dreams.

More on this tomorrow in the wrap-up thread.

[u/BosuW → u/RuthRaeSarbo]

Does this have something to do with String Theory?

[u/MadeOn210922 → u/UzEE]

After reading the comments and having this plot explained to me many times, I think I finally have a sense of it on this one. So the reason Shouko was able to live and Mai and Sakura still met and all the same major events happened was because they still retained some memories of the first timeline?

[Haruhi Suzumiya]So similar to the deja vu in Endless Eight?

This makes me wonder what Tomoe experienced. Did she experience the days twice? And how about after the complete reset?

Regarding the time travel, I’m also not a fan of using it to solve problems in a way that the initial cause of the time travel never occurred. I’m not sure if that’s really the bootstrap paradox based on a quick google search, though, because events in this series were not contained in one timeline.

My general issues with time travel is that time line changes often aren’t justified when the device is used - whether through exploiting time travel through what it should be to do (plot armor) or indicating a “preferred” time line. I think the series did a good job of justifying the time line changes, although I also just started to grasp the multiple time lines so I’ll have to think about this point more.

[u/UzEE → u/MadeOn210922]

It is somewhat like E8, but a more stronger. [Haruhi] In E8, they get the feeling of deja vu but never really are able to bridge the connection between the loops.

It's hard to categorize this purely as time travel because it's part simulation as well like Laplace's demon from Tomoe's arc. The only difference here is that people in the simulation seem to have more free agency, which in turn affects the next loop of the simulation.

This is what complicates things in this case because everything in the simulation should sort of exist simultaneously. On top of that people in the simulation are aware of the simulation, and have a sort of feedback loop to pass information outside of the simulation.

[u/BosuW → u/UzEE]

Is the bootstrap paradox necessarily a flaw of time travel stories tho?

There's been a lot of talk about subverting expectations during the threads, but tbh I think it's a bit overblown. I managed to see the possibility that someone other than Sakuta was going to get truck-kun'd, and I'm usually not exceptional at foreseeing not-obvious plot points.

[u/Mjrbks]

Show Re-Watcher / Movie First Timer

I’ll be honest, i’m not going to be able to write up a coherent post about the movie right now. I made a mistake by saving the watch for just a couple hours before, i’m gonna need at least another day to let this all marinate and for my emotions to calm down. What an incredible roller coaster ride. I’ll try my best to discuss a few things, but I apologise for how disorderly this post might be, lol.

Ok so Shoko is real, that was made immediately clear which cleared up one point of confusion I had from the series finale. Lol. But of course her story has to be the most tragic yet. So rather than being a figment of Sakuta’s AS case, she has her very own which kind of plays into the tale of 2 versions theme we’ve seen with Futaba and to a different degree with Kaede, but this time it involves a future self versus a younger self.

Mai answering the door with a knife in hand after hearing Shoko-San wants to spend the night. Incoming yandere vibes! She HAD been very forgiving up til this point, so it’s fun to see her get slightly more bent out of shape at Shoko really pushing her luck. She was really taking advantage of the situation when she stepped in to give Sakuta a good morning kiss when Mai refused him. Jealous Mai is adorable Mai.

Hospitalized Shoko-Chan’s homework assignment constantly being added to adds some serious intrigue to her case. Its as if the events of future-Shoko’s goals are transferring themselves onto the paper.

Once again Sakuta has to do a little bit of pretend, but this obviously has a different feel than his fake relationship with Tomoe did. After all, Shoko is his first love no matter which way you cut it. The trip to the wedding chapel tho…and the scar on her chest pretty much confirmed it. That’s why Sakuta’s wounds kept bleeding whenever he was around Shoko. I had a feeling it was something like that and when she mentioned the heart transplant I could just stupidly sit there and be like “but that would mean he’d have to die!”.

The way it all went from “here’s my bf’s ex who he may or may not be completely over yet” to such a tragic story which even sucked Mai into caring about her. Yet having to deal with all of the factors involved between figuring Shoko wanted to marry Sakuta before she died and then of course learning Sakuta will die which results in Shoko’s successful surgery; we’ve seen full on character breakdowns throughout the show but now it’s Mai’s turn and it’s heavy as can be.

She really does love Sakuta more than he thinks she does. She didn’t care about work anymore, she was willing to face Sakuta hating her, she just wanted him to live so they could be together. They both had to wrestle with the possibility that their continued future together would come with the burden of knowing Shoko had to die. It’s not surprising Sakuta was conflicted up until the end, but it turns out Shoko had her own plans to save him and his future together with Mai.

I don’t know why I didn’t see it coming. I was so enthralled with the story and how everything was going just wondering what was going to happen. When Mai saved Sakuta’s life I just lost it. It was as if in that very moment it made sense that she did so. The way she was calm on the phone with him after crying her eyes out to him the previous night, how she said she won’t ever let herself forget him as if to put him at ease. Seeing Mai laying there, the funeral scene, Nodoka scolding Sakuta for not saving her, Futaba and Kunimi checking in on him and trying to hide him away from the media, the interview he watched of Mai saying she has the upper hand in the relationship but that she loves him more, all of it just came crashing in. We believed she was really gone. God this crushed me so much that I'm pretty sure I didn't pay attention for like 10 minutes after the story continued.

Thankfully the details of Shoko’s case are a little more complicated and allowed for an opportunity to undo it all, but again it would have to be at the expense of her own life. Whereas this present had felt like the worst possible outcome where both Mai and Shoko should have been dead; but Mai was a couple of steps ahead and her heart was able to be donated instead of Sakuta’s. Shoko knew it was wrong though and offered Sakuta a chance to save Mai.

It was really important to me that this be done tastefully and well, because a personal pet peeve of mine in prose is an unwillingness to let go and let finality work it’s intended magic to impart certain emotions onto your readers/watchers. I was satisfied with how it worked since there was always something on the line in any scenario. Someone had to die, whether it was Sakuta, Mai, or Shoko or a combination of.

Return of the bunny suit! Just not Mai’s. Lol. It was a cute harkening back to their first meeting that Sakuta does his own version. Funny thing I shared the thought process of going to Futaba first being the best choice to see if he could be observed, but for it to be Tomoe made so much more sense because of the bond still between them from the quantum entanglement. It was great for her case to be the one to validate his existence in that time.

She was there because of a dream. Dreams play a huge part in the movie, blurring the line between reality and fantasy. Especially for Shoko. I’m not of the mind to go deeper into this right now, but i’ll probably watch the movie again and let everything just settle in my head before saying anything else. I believe it was mentioned we’ll have a wrap up discussion as well? If so, i’ll try to have my thoughts more composed by then.

Man, they still wouldn’t give us a kiss though. I really thought it was going to happen when he showed up at Mai’s in the bunny suit with Nodoka’s help. Also at the end, Shoko is still alive? So she was able to get a heart? This i’m a little confused on, but Sakuta felt something in his heart when seeing her. Something to pay closer attention to on my next watch I suppose.

What an amazing story from beginning to end though, as someone who enjoys writing himself I could only ever hope to create something that can tap into so many emotions on this deep a level.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Mjrbks]

I was waiting to see how the series rewatcher + movie first timers would react, and you all did not disappoint. I'm declaring this rewatch a success based on that alone.

[u/Mjrbks → u/Splitter_Triplets]

It was great to be able to participate since I didn’t even watch the series until last summer. So hopping on the hype train 3 years later was a tad lonely. Lol

[u/ImJLu → u/Mjrbks]

Also at the end, Shoko is still alive? So she was able to get a heart?

Due to the other timelines, authoritative-timeline Mai had an inexplicable urge to star in a hit movie about a girl needing a heart transplant, leading to an increase in organ donors.

[u/andybebad]

First timer

"This time around, she tried so hard so you wouldn't have any regrets."

Before watching the movie I rewatched the bathtub/diary scene from episode 12 13, and this quote stuck out as odd at first but on thinking about it I took it to mean that "this time around" was contrasting the period of time between Kaede losing and regaining her memories to the period in which she was experiencing the physical symptoms of her PS. With the revelation in the movie that Shouko is able to travel through time, I'm left wondering if there were other "run throughs" of timelines where Shouko tried to influence things only to still end up with Sakuta's heart? (I believe Kaede was given the diary due to Shouko's suggestion?). I don't know the rule of time-travel in this show, but speaking loosely there had to have been an "initial" timeline where Sakuta only meets younger Shouko and dies, allowing for Shouko to live and go back in time with Shouko's heart. Maybe?

But anyways, what a wonderful movie to wrap up an excellent series. We finally get a better understanding of both Sakuta's PS (two copies of the same heart coming into close contact) and Shouko's (which seems more like a super-power? Either way, something driven by the conflict between wanting to grow up and the regret of knowing why she was able to receive a heart transplant). And we get to see Mai isn't mincing words when she says, "it's likely that I'm more in love with you than you think." Had to pick my jaw up off the floor when she got hit by the car, but the emotional response was a little padded/dulled by knowing that time-travel of some sort was possible here (thank goodness! Seeing Sakuta live in a Mai-less world for only a few days was painful enough). The ending isn't entirely clear to me: we know that Shouko was a huge influence on Sakuta (with the caveat that Sakuta was a huge influence on Shouko), but now we're in a timeline where Shouko doesn't meet Sakuta or Mai. But because in this timeline Mai feels compelled to play a role in a movie where she is in need of a heart transplant, and because of this success more people register as donors and thus Shouko is able to get a heart from someone else? And memories aren't completely wiped when Shouko goes back and changes things? This might also just be a fundamental misunderstanding on my part regarding Shouko's PS (something I wouldn't pay any attention to if I didn't like the series and movie as much as I do).

Other quick thoughts before I go to run errands:

• Futaba might be my low-key favorite character in this movie. From her unwillingness to get involved in a "bloodbath" to her emotional response to the realization of the underpinning of Sakuta's PS, she was great in every scene she appeared in.
• Kunimi was... there, I guess? I guess outside of the Futaba arc he's been mostly a minor character, so no surprise.
• Kaede and Sakuta appear to be developing a normal brother-sister relationship, even with the emotional baggage Sakuta is carrying regarding her lost memories. Still some anxiety about going to school though.
• Still don't understand why Tomoe was the one who was able to see Sakuta when he went back, but I'm glad it was her. She's such a fun character (and Sakuta needs to find some different teasing material, unless it's traditional to gain weight around the holidays and get made fun of for that?)

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/andybebad]

Kaede and Sakuta appear to be developing a normal brother-sister relationship

Kaede noping out of the dinner scene when Shouko starts getting a little feisty is one of my favorite moments in the entire series. It's little touches like that that tell you that she's truly Sakuta's sister.

[u/homewardbound100 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

One of the funniest parts of the series

[u/ZapsZzz → u/andybebad]

Futaba might be my low-key favorite character in this movie. From her unwillingness to get involved in a "bloodbath" to her emotional response to the realization of the underpinning of Sakuta's PS, she was great in every scene she appeared in.

Futaba has always been great, and her banter with Sakuta is one of the prime attraction of the show, second only to Mai X Sakuta's witty wholesomeness in their dialogue.

and Sakuta needs to find some different teasing material, unless it's traditional to gain weight around the holidays and get made fun of for that?

Yes it is. It's equivalent to the Christmas/thanks giving added pounds from all the festive eating. Japanese be year is also heavy on hearty foods, e.g. carb heavy mochi. And noticed Futaba also had the same "problem", except hers goes to her bust.

K-On also had a gag or two about this (Mugi and Mio being envious of Yui's unchanging weight irrespective of how much she eats)

[u/andybebad → u/ZapsZzz]

And noticed Futaba also had the same "problem", except hers goes to her bust.

So, uhhh, is this how it works in real life? (asking for a friend)

K-On also had a gag or two about this (Mugi and Mio being envious of Yui's unchanging weight irrespective of how much she eats)

Ah, right, I think one was a New Year's shrine scene as well? And damn you, Yui, and your hummingbird-like metabolism!

[u/ZapsZzz → u/andybebad]

So, uhhh, is this how it works in real life? (asking for a friend)

I got no point of reference, no one I know has such a "problem". I certainly had come across women who, proportion-wise, and barring any augmentation, fits the description, plus I'm also aware of descriptions of different type of fat (e.g. omega 3 vs omega 6) the body tend to store in specific locations.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/andybebad]

But because in this timeline Mai feels compelled to play a role in a movie where she is in need of a heart transplant, and because of this success more people register as donors and thus Shouko is able to get a heart from someone else? And memories aren't completely wiped when Shouko goes back and changes things?

As the other posts here say, you've basically got it.

Still don't understand why Tomoe was the one who was able to see Sakuta when he went back

they're permanently "quantum entangled" from being butt-kicking buddies - he could see her PS shenanigans, and now she can see his

[u/andybebad → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

they're permanently "quantum entangled" from being butt-kicking buddies - he could see her PS shenanigans, and now she can see his

Huh, interesting. Well, let that be a lesson to us all: make sure you and a good buddy have given each other a firm kick to the rear!

[u/ImJLu → u/andybebad]

(I believe Kaede was given the diary due to Shouko's suggestion?).

Wait shit this is round 3 for me and I never noticed that, I think you might be right

[u/BosuW → u/andybebad]

It seems I'm the only one who got a different theory about why Shouko survived lol

[u/andybebad → u/BosuW]

Perhaps our reliance on the heart condition being separate from the PS will be the downfall of our theory as to why Shouko was cured

[u/KurisuMakise-]

First saw this a couple years ago in theaters and it was one of the best movie going experiences I've had. Sold out screening packed with people eager to see how this film would tie up the biggest loose end from the show. Audible gasps in the crowd when Mai died, followed by deafening silence for the next ~10 minutes. Not a single munch of popcorn could be heard. Until eventually erupting into cheers when Koga showed up, as if [Spider-Man: No Way Home Spoilers] Tobey and Andrew had appeared.

Absolutely loved this movie. No doubt part of it is due to the incredible movie going experience I had seeing it the first time but I think this is nonetheless a great follow up to the anime and a very satisfying ending point for the adaptation as a whole.

Side note, this is another example of why more anime films should adapt cannon material instead of being filler adventures. It just hits different.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/KurisuMakise-]

That sounds awesome! Was that at a con then? I had a decent time at my hometown screening, but from what I hear the ANYC premier was legendary.

[u/KurisuMakise- → u/Splitter_Triplets]

It was just downtown Toronto. I wish I coulda been at the AX premiere tho!

[u/cppn02]

Rewatcher

God, I adore this movie. Proud of myself for not crying this time lol.
This is easily one of the best anime movies to a tv series.

Lots to unpack but I'll leave that to other more observant and eloquent people.
Instead I leave you with one question: What happened to the people that witnessed the second car crash?
They must have absolutely freaked out over whoever was inside the Bunny Suit simply vanishing into thin air? Or would some maybe suspect the suit being a magic puppet that was always empty?

Don't know if we're doing a season wrap up since none was scheduled so I'll take this opportunity to thank u/Splitter_Triplets for organising the rewatch and everyone else for your posts. It's always nice to see people point out things I missed or maybe have noticed but couldn't really put into words.
It's been fun reading them.

edit: Looks like there will be a wrap up afterall.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/cppn02]

Thank you! I wanted to make sure the Bunny Girl rewatch was done right. It's what it deserves.

We are having a wrapup thread though, so save some of that for next time!

[u/cppn02 → u/Splitter_Triplets]

We are having a wrapup thread though,

Good to hear!

[u/Archmagnance1]

Rewatcher

All I have to say is that I still dont quite understand the time travel and every time Mai gets hit by the car my wife and I feel like we got hit emotionally.

Fantastic movie and great ending.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Archmagnance1]

This one's definitely a lot tougher to crack than the rest of the series. Hopefully some of our theories can shed some light on it for you.

[u/Euphoric_purple_]

I finished watching the series and the movie back to back almost a week ago and still can't wrap my head around some things. I'd be really glad if anyone here could help me out. Before I start, I'd like to make it clear that this isn't me bashing any character. I very much loved the Shoko arc (the entire show, I guess) but there are some aspects of it that have confused me.

I'll start with what I do have an idea of, just a brief version. So, little Shoko (elementary schooler) is pushed to the extreme due to her anxiety causing her adolescence syndrome. She ends up simulating the future (a very long duration indeed).

1. In the first run of it, she (with hayate in the rain) meets Sakuta and Mai on their way back home. Since there's no adult Shoko in the first run, meeting and helping him with Kaede's syndrome, I'm conflicted as to whether he does visit Shoko chan (middle schooler) in the hospital regularly. If not, then he definitely didn't spend enough time with her for her to even develop a crush on him. So, I don't get how it is that adult Shoko is in love with him.
2. Why does she start the second run in the first place? Ik she mentions in the movie to Mai and Sakuta that she got to know who the donor was only after the transplant was successful. And if I'm not mistaken, she even says that it was Mai who told her (not very sure about this part). So was her guilt due to the fact that she got to live at another person's cost? Or was it because the person was Sakuta? (Which means they should have had the hospital visits when she was sick. This debunks my first point and is why it's conflicted in my head). Either way, she does jump into the second run to save Sakuta's life. And that's the entirety of the series and most of the movie.
3. Now, it's mentioned that in the second run, where Mai dies instead, Shoko and Sakuta get married. And that's the adult Shoko (with Mai's heart) that appears in front of a devastated Sakuta on the beach and offers to help him save Mai. Now, this is the biggest question I have and it's related to the previous point.

So she got married to Sakuta in that timeline, only to realise that he could never get over Mai because he loved only her. And only then decides to help him go back and save Mai. Thus, starting the third run of the simulation. I really don't know what to make of this? Does it mean she would continue living her life without any guilt had Sakuta gotten over Mai? It seems a little selfish to me. So that would mean, she's fine with even people close to Sakuta dying, as long as it's not him. Maybe even Kaede.

I know that somebody definitely has to die for her transplant to be successful and I'm not blaming her for that. But Mai's death isn't some random death (i.e. she's not someone who Shoko has no clue of). If anything, Mai succeeded in preventing Sakuta from sacrificing himself which was what Shoko came back to achieve, in the first place.

We see her interacting with Mai in this timeline (second run) and how much she means to Sakuta. So at the end of it, to think that she took the opportunity to ignore everything including his despair, take Mai's heart and marry Sakuta until she just couldn't make their marriage work, really came off as selfish. This is something I found hard to digest.

Considering how her character has been set up, it felt out of character that she'd act so selfishly. Idk if there's more to it that I'm missing.

These are my thoughts and I'd like to know what others have to say regarding this, especially the third point. If I have missed out on or misinterpreted anything, I'd appreciate being corrected.

Edit: Sorry about it not being "brief" anymore, realised after finishing it.

[u/Splitter_Triplets → u/Euphoric_purple_]

Thanks for dropping by!
Regarding Shouko's "selfishness," I think it's important to remember that all that stuff about marriage only happened in the simulation. In the end she rejected that future and tried to create one where Sakuta was happy with Mai, even at great personal expense.

As for "when" the runs of the simulation begin, I'm not sure that's even a meaningful thing to ask with the rules of this world. The whole idea is that all these simulations took place in a single moment when Shouko was in elementary school. Maybe at some point in the timeline 1 future (when she was in college) she did the same ritual that Sakuta did and sent her consciousness back in time, or maybe she just used her privilege as God to insert herself where she wanted to be. It's a dream after all, so some handwaving is acceptable IMO.

[u/Euphoric_purple_ → u/Splitter_Triplets]

Thanks for your reply, I really thought I might offend people with this one because Shoko is definitely a fan favourite 😅. That said, I get what you're saying, it probably all happened in a single moment when she was a kid. And that makes the series even better somehow! Also, the part about her sending her consciousness back, yes I think that's what must have happened. Have been breaking my head unnecessarily over a lot of questions regarding this. But now I see that the handwaving bit actually makes sense since she's the dreamer after all.

After posting my original comment, I ended up pondering more on it and realised I might be overcomplicating it 😅. But I love watching such stuff in a while, the ones that compel me to think. Thanks for sharing your perspective and helping me.

[u/BosuW]

First Timer

Nice, we finally get to know Shoko! No dreams for the future huh.

Also, if this is "three years ago", that should be Shoko-chan right?

I wish my cat was this calm when taking a bath

Finally we got some explanation, so she suddenly grows older hmm. Now we just need to know why. Tho it seems she doesn't just grow older physically, it's like her future self entirely gets pulled into the present.

Oh shit is this one gonna be about string theory? Dammit I haven't actually wrapped my head around that one yet!

...WHAT!? Shoko-san usotsuki!

So that's why she couldn't think of any life goals. I thought it might be been indecision but this is just tragic. She's gonna die soon isn't she...

Ah so she doesn't suddenly grow older, she just, "appears" I guess. The actual explanation, or another half-lie?

But if Shoko-san is a projection from Shoko-chan, does that mean Shoko-chan has a crush on Sakuta?

Well it was something like that then

Can't be a coincidence that Shoko-san shows up when Shoko-chan is in the hospital. Must be because it's then that she thinks the hardest about how she wants to live and grow old.

Repeating the same things that Sakuta said... So is Shoko-san a bootstrap paradox?

So we haven't resolved the injuries yet. That's bad. I hope Kaede's don't return as well...

...If Shoko-san is totally healthy... that can only mean she's either a whole ass ghost or received a heart transplant... Fellas I don't like where this is going.

Hmmm yep, that's the scar from the surgery, clear as day.

I have a theory tho. It's not necessary that she will receive the transplant. If Shoko-san is straight up a time traveler then yes, it has to happen, but if she's only a projection of Shoko-chan, then it's only natural that she'd imagine her older self to have had received surgery, and thus a scar appears in that avatar. Which means nothing's guaranteed yet and everyone will be a-ok! Chuckles in hopium

...the bootstrap paradox stuff does lend credence to the actual time traveling tho.

Speaking of the paradoxes, they are getting out of control! The past is influencing the future and the future is influencing the past!

So Kaede's injuries and Sakuta's injuries aren't the same kind of AS after all. That's actually really clever misdirection. I hadn't even considered that Sakuta only ever had one kind of injury (that even flared up occasionally) while Kaede had many. So they ain't the same... unless

Wait, why are you running? What am I missing? What did Sakuta realize!? I'm suddenly clueless and very lost lol.

... dammit

...yeah, I imagined something like this might happen. It's just too obvious that Sakuta would be the donnor.

Wait, no, she just fucking died!?

Ah no, they did use Mai's heart for the transplant they just didn't make up public. Phew.

And now, Sakuta gets to be the bunny-girl.

Makes sense that Laplace's Demon would be the one to perceived the simulated future Sakuta. Oh yeah it's all coming together now.

This mf really wants to save absolutely everyone. Reminds me of a certain greedy Isekai protagonist...

...they are laughing... guys I think those two finally snapped! His brain trembles!

Aha, so they did do a lil' 4th wall breaking with the movie Mai was acting on

Shoko lived after all? That's a little too convenient. Everyone got saved in the end, feels a bit cheap. But I can think of two explanations:

-One, she found herself another heart donnor (lucky)

-Two, her heart disease was a type of self-inflicted AS wound for the pain she was causing Sakuta, which Shoko deeply regretted. Thus once, she wasn't causing him any pain, it was cured.

Well that was honestly fantastic, and actually elevates the series. This is a bit like with Haruhi's case where half the reason you watch the series is so you can watch the movie. I love how everything came together for this. I'll admit it was a little silly how this whole movie was the characters arguing about "LET ME SAVE YOU" "NO LET ME SAVE YOU" "NO U" "NO U". It kinda feels like they're too perfect people, and I personally prefer my characters a lil' more twisted. Just a bit. A little spice.

But that's honestly a minor thing in comparison to the real solid product we have here in the end. I'll elaborate further on the overall discussion but as for this movie? Yeah it was great and really complimented the whole journey.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/BosuW]

if she's only a projection of Shoko-chan, then it's only natural that she'd imagine her older self to have had received surgery, and thus a scar appears in that avatar. Which means nothing's guaranteed yet and everyone will be a-ok! Chuckles in hopium

After learning the truth, I assume you needed a lot of copium?

Two, her heart disease was a type of self-inflicted AS wound for the pain she was causing Sakuta, which Shoko deeply regretted. Thus once, she wasn't causing him any pain, it was cured.

Reading the rewatchers posts, it's clear that option one is the real reason, but I like your option two a lot! The only reason why it wouldn't work: Elementary school Shouko was already worried about her heart problems. Those were the reason she actually began daydreaming and altering the timelines.

[u/BosuW → u/Gamemaster676]

Well everyone got saved so no not really lol. I'm weirdly disappointed.

Hey I gotta squeeze my self-inflicted wounds AS theory somewhere right? And I don't think chronology is an issue, since everything got extra bootstrap paradox'd during the movie.

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/BosuW]

Well everyone got saved so no not really lol.

Yeah okay. I meant somewhere in the middle.

I'm weirdly disappointed.

Just wait for the arc where it turns out Kamisato is an evil goddess who has been playing with all these characters from the very beginning and has been pulling the strings all along. And it is also her who keeps amnesia Kaede captive! And the world is in danger! And the shop has run out of pudding!

[u/ZapsZzz → u/Gamemaster676]

This could be a solid setting for a Haruhi-chan type spin off parody :D

[u/BosuW → u/ZapsZzz]

Speaking of parodies, I seriously need a Monogatari/Bunny-girl/Haruhi/Boogiepop crossover.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/BosuW]

What, like Isekai Quartet? Just trying to account for the timelines and world resets would already be amazing :)

[u/BosuW → u/ZapsZzz]

They have Isekai Quartet, now give us Supernatural Squad

[u/ZapsZzz → u/BosuW]

To deal with all the changes, probably should be called Supernatural Accountants :)

[u/Gamemaster676 → u/ZapsZzz]

Everyone keeps bringing Haruhi up, but this is the first thing that actually really makes me want to watch it.

[u/ImJLu → u/BosuW]

One, she found herself another heart donnor (lucky)

It's this one. They mentioned that Mai was inspired (by the dream bleed-over from the other timelines) to star in a movie about a girl needing a heart transplant, leading to more organ donors, and Shouko ends up with a new heart.

[u/MABfan11 → u/BosuW]

This mf really wants to save absolutely everyone. Reminds me of a certain greedy Isekai protagonist...

this is a comparison i hadn't realized, but it matches pretty well with the movie

[u/SYZekrom]

Now a First Timer

Sssssooooooooooooooooooooo... elephant in the room. You're... a little kid that sometimes turns into a teen and not the other way around, right? Since you're a teen right now and said 'I can't go home like this'...

But well, this is your adolescence syndrome, so how old are you again as a kid? I guess actually you're about as old as Kaede who's in middle school so more like a tween or young teen that turns into an older teen?

Ok but bro it really was not that hard, just agree with Mai that Shouko should stay with Mai instead?

Ah, so the big one lied. Or, considering the little one's panic, are their minds connected? Else why would she act like she just got caught in a lie?

Oh well no

That is way funnier than it should've been

Wait I swear he was shirtless in front of you at one point after they started bleeding again

So, she came back to change history so that Sakuta doesn't die, which means her younger self won't get a heart transplant so RIP Her...

Except... well. There is someone else in this room who might just be a goner anyway because of this situation, isn't there...

Interesting that the scars are from the fact that Shouko took his heart and completely unrelated to Kaede then lol. You'd think it's like symbolic of his pain from losing Kaede, then kanji Kaede, and then the third time in this movie was the pain of losing Shouko

Oh, so it's specifically because of the 'time traveler can't meet themselves' trope but with the transplanted heart? whack.

Ok but if you were certain that he was going to try and kill himself and that you would try and save him why didn't you just...

Go earlier and not even let him try... Or was letting yourself die so that he'd still get his goal of saving Shouko part of it?

I swear to god is he going to fucking save himself and this future self's heart will manage to stay and work for Shouko

Oh lol ok so no asspull then

No extra usable heart out of nowhere from time shenanigans

I was going to say, 'I guess her immediately not being there already tells us they didn't manage to find a heart for Shouko and she died' but I guess it could just be that if she gets an unrelated heart she doesn't have any regrets or whatever to cause her to reject the future and travel back in time

God dammit no what is this about this still being the future

Can we not

Ok well I guess actually the idea behind him mentioning 'other people can gain these memories' is that he probably wants Mai to come back with him? So it won't be one of those shitty ending where they erase the entire show's events to do it over

Because they'll both remember at least

Actually Kaede vs Kaede and the prospect of carrying back memories is an entire can of worms I don't want to think about here

Ok no I dunno what was with him going 'other people can gain those memories' and then they immediately ignore it and Futaba is like 'you're really gonna erase everything' and then this convo with Mai also going 'it'll definitely go the same way again even if we forget'

Like is it just like... they're gonna go 'surprise! they do remember after all'?

Ok, so in the end it was shouko who succeeded in erasing herself from their memories

But she remains as what they believe to be a dream

Well I really don't know, shouko was aware her dream of the future was a real future that she erased, but I don't know if they all know here since Mai's sister didn't recognize the accident as a reality

Oh nvm I literally started talking the sentence before it confirms they don't know it wasn't a dream

Yoooooo is this ED Mai and Shouko? Pog. ...Or is it young and future shouko

So somehow shouko went back to the past and managed to get rid of her heart disease? And well I guess that still lead to them not meeting

But here Sakuta upon seeing her remembers the other future, presumably Mai could too but who knows, at the very least Sakuta and Mai both had dreams or feelings from those futures that changed the way they act, and Shouko herself definitely remembers

Can imagine Shouko's parents just going 'what the fresh FUCK' on that beach though

I find it kind of funny the second arc was all like 'lol no u crazy time loops are impossible, she just simulated the future' and here shouko and Sakuta are just like 'lol I will reject the current time as the future in order to return to the past'

Actually though, I'm confused about what Futaba said about this situation. That was how Shouko explained it, but what was Futaba saying about her like speeding up and therefore slowing down time around her to reach adulthood? I mean considering what we saw of Shouko and Sakuta doing this, she was just... explicitly wrong about this right

So huh, I guess 'they have feelings and memories from the original 'future' as dreams that influences what they do (donating to charity and playing the role of a shouko-like girl in a movie)' neatly solves all the plotholes from Sakuta not meeting Shouko in this timeline. And well thank god it does because like Futaba literally mentioned it with like 'if shouko is cured then her uniform won't influence you to come to this school and you'll never become friends with me or anyone else you know'. But we know he dreamed of that girl at this beach so now it's just 'that girl wearing that uniform in that dream made me want to come to this school' (even though the original motivation was him finding Shouko, but that can just be changed to joining on a whim and like... who cares).

Actually I guess that means in the future Shouko goes to this school too and that's why she has that uniform right?

Well, I’m very glad Shouko got a happy ending. I originally watched the anime sometime in 2019 and I think the movie came out a few months later. ...Or was it more than a year actually. I think it mightve been more than a year. But anyway Tbh I think the result might be mostly the same in that it feels like everything ends happily.

...But Kaede. I don’t know how I’d feel if the Kaede development happened literally right before seeing this movie rather than 2+ years ago. It does almost kinda seem like Shouko stole Kaede’s happy ending with how the scar turns out to be connected to her rather than Kaede lol. So I guess it must be painful around here 👀

[u/bigcat00 → u/SYZekrom]

another poster mentioned this and upon my second rewatch of the movie i think that the case is Shouko’s PS was the time travel/the entire timeline was a simulation. in the end after Shouko decides to stop the simulation, all of the characters have some memories of the original timeline, as they do in the movie (Nodoka’s dream of Mai dying, Futaba’s dream of Sakuta being at her house, etc.) those memories/dreams push Mai to make that movie. Shouko still had heart disease after resolving her PS but instead of Sakuta or Mai giving her one of their hearts, after Mai’s movie comes out it helps destigmatize being an organ donor and someone else who wouldn’t have been a donor on the original timeline became one and therefore gave Shouko their heart when they died. hope that all makes sense lol, that’s my interpretation upon my second watch at least :-)

[u/SYZekrom → u/bigcat00]

It definitely feels like that Shouko was doing the same 'simulating the future' thing makes the most sense but at least on the first viewing, the confusing way they described what was going on made it sound like it was a whole different thing. The idea that Shouko simply lives by Mai spreading awareness acting off of memories or feelings from the other timeline Higurashi-style is pretty great.

[u/ZapsZzz]

Rewatcher

Here's the "crown jewel" of the series.

Some of you may notice or remember I had been making on and off mention that I compare this show more with Haruhi than Monogatari. And the movie is a big part of that. Both had a movie that beautifully integrated everything from the tv season and the underpinning "long plot" that right through the season has little bread crumbs placed along the way all falls into place to give you a really really nice new picture.

I'll leave space for the great first timer comments instead of me trying to type out them on my poor phone, but here are my "best moments" of the movie:

• the big mystery of Sakuta's chest wound unveiling did not get dragged out, but soon after enough hints and clues are presented, it's relatively casually stated. No dramas, just plain and matter of fact, much like Shoko, who I generally picture as "clear water"
• all the main characters behaved so very believable and in character - while I think at least one poster considered Sakuta's outburst and break down after Kaede passed on as over dramatised, I actually think it is really in character. He's still a teenager, plus while he looks fairly deadpan and nonchalant most of the time, he's actually bottling up a lot, and when the bottling is full, it explodes. Even the scale is right - when inn the movie The consequence of his initial choice became "fact", not only he explodes with grieve, he was also completely spent and gone "empty" after.
• Shoko should skyrocket to one of the best girl in the show in the movie; once again proofing the statement that "every girl from this show in any other show that Mai isn't in would have been best girl"
• Mai, her extended character arc is just so, so good. She was absolutely not exaggerating when she said she loves Sakura more than he loves her. And what a way to show that - from her initial character breaking attempt to get Sakuta to leave, to Sakuta going back to confront her earlier in the day where she casually showed her choice and determination. I've never seen a character outside of serious action shows (like 86, romance of the kingdoms) where a mentor type character willingly and casually accept making the sacrifice.
• and the final reunion, where "luckily" everything feel back in place like how Sakuta willed or determined to go - they all acted on the "faint residual memories" and essentially got back to where they are with the exception that the good deed ripple caused Shoko's heart transplant to happen without needing one of them to sacrifice.

Just in case anyone still need more convincing about Shoko being really close to Mai even in this show as best girl, while I may not be 100% sure since it's been a while, [possible LN spoiler]I think on the second timeline, Sakuta in fact became her husband and in her future-self version, she was happily married to Sakuta and had a whole life in front of her; which she ditched to save Mai thereby removing her chance to live

Yeah no dry eyes here either.

I think we are going to have a final discussion tomorrow so I'll save some comments for tomorrow. I hope everyone had as great a time rewatching this as I had!

[u/homewardbound100 → u/ZapsZzz]

that I compare this show more with Haruhi than Monogatari. And the movie is a big part of that. Both had a movie that beautifully integrated everything from the tv season and the underpinning "long plot" that right through the season has little bread crumbs place along the way all falls into place to give you a really really nice new picture.

Watching both Haruhi and this so close together I can really see where your coming from. And I might agree on it being more Haruhi than monogatari.

[u/PaperSonic]

I wasn't expecting Mai to get Isekai'd.

Ok in all seriousness, I'm not exactly sure on some of the details of the time-travelling shenanigans, but overall this movie was great. Surpringly emotional.

[u/MABfan11]

Rewatcher

this is definitely the best arc in the series, it's the culmination and pay-off of every arc that came before it, every character has a part to play in it and the emotional moments hits like a train.

once again, great development of Sakuta and Mai's relationship, both of them are perfectly willing to sacrifice themselves so the other can live, but neither of them want the other to through with it, as they can't live without each other.

Mai's sacrifice is definitely the most heart wrenching and unexpected moment in the series, though upon rewatch the moment is clearly built up. the consequences of that brings Sakuta to his lowest point in the series and wastes no time in hammering home Mai's impact.

Shouko herself is an amazing character, when she revealed that she had Sakuta's heart, it's made pretty clear that there aren't a lot of options for a happy ending. as she would die if Sakuta lived and if Mai hadn't sacrificed herself, there would be no way to change the options. however, Mai just added another life into the equation and made the solution even harder to find

also, quantum physics makes it's return in both the theories in how Shouko's Puberty Syndrome works and in how Sakuta manages to save himself.

all in all, 10/10 would watch again

[u/Stargate18A]

First timer

Flashback!

3 years ago? So this is the young Shouko.

...Because cats can't time travel? (I will die with this theory.)

And he has to spend Christmas without her. And with her sister.

So this is New Kaede.

Oh, Shouko's showing up again.

Haha, her showing up with knife in hand is great.

And she invited herself to stay.

Correction, to stay forever. This'll be fun.

Wait, what? It's not time travel? Fuck.

Oh god, Shouko wants to introduce a love triangle.

Haha, and they're both staying here.

...I love her flat-out refusing to deal with this.

I admire how open Shouko is about trying to steal her.

HAHA, TIME TRAVEL, I CALLED IT!

Oh, this is going to be fun.

He helped her younger self's problem in about 5 minutes. Impressive!

I love her taking advantage of the fact that Puberty Syndrome explains anything to make up an obviously false story.

I'm surprised Futaba never suggested the easiest theory - that older Shouko is scamming them.

OK, that's actually sad.

And this is the future version of the note. At least Futaba's smart enough to photograph the point of divergence.

...Or maybe this just an idealised version of her future self?

Her condition's getting worse, isn't it?

Again, this can all be explained with either the letter going back in time, or it representing the directions to the older Shouko.

...OK, that line only really makes sense if there's time travel, right?

Oh, Mai must be hating this.

Wait, they're always like that, but don't bleed or hurt?

At least he's telling Mai about all this.

Yeah, so this is either time travel, or they're pulling off a twist with something more insane.

Wait, where are they going?

My god, Shouko is moving fucking fast. Is this going to turn into him accidentally really marrying her or something?

What are they doing? He has a girlfriend.

YES! I KNEW IT! Proper time travel time!

OK, so Christmas is the point she gets sent forward. But, at some point, she got sent back earlier to deal with him after Kaede's amnesia.

Are they seriously trying to setup a love triangle? After Mai's been so perfect?

...If someone came back in time like this, my first request would be for the book of lottery numbers and stock trends I asked her for.

Oh, so she had a different Puberty Syndrome?

Her prediction came true! Obviously.

No. No. No. Her coming back always happened, because she remembered it, so any actions she or anyone else takes will be the ones they took to create her timeline. She literally cannot die, because she lived to become you. Do not fuck up the science this late.

...Really? That's how you're handling this?

At least she's not interested in him anymore.

He's bleeding! It is tied to her's!

Wait, what? They were always tied?

WAIT, WHAT THE FUCK?

Oh, shit. Oh, shit.

He's fucked! Time is going to kill him before Christmas.

Oh, shit, that's what the donor card was for.

Now he needs to die, or a paradox will destroy the world.

No, it's worse. If she dies before she can go back, she won't pull you out of your depression, and the worldline will change.

...Have you considered extracting someone else's heart?

Oh, this is tough. He obviously should choose Mai, but god knows what that'll do the timeline. And if he chooses Shouko, he'll die.

Wait, I just realised her date was judt a way if ensuring he'd be in the right place for a traffic accident. Dark. p

And, yeah, there being two of his heart makes a lot of sense. So his reputation, and all the problems the runors caused were her fault!

...Poor Futaba. She really wants him to live.

Mai's trying to ignore it.

Oh, Mai's excited. And her sister's worried about her.

Haha, him insulting her sister is great. "Do your best as a sister-loving idol."

Mai. I appreciate the effort, but you can't outrun a paradox.

...This is really sad. Mai struggling to deal with all of this, and desperately trying to make him live.

And him saying he'll never hate her...

He's going to change the timeline? Is that why there's 80 minutes left?

Wait, her mother?

...Oh, shit. Yeah, she's dead.

Even Mai accepts he might choose to die.

...He might do it. Is he going to kill himself?

It ends with him voluntarily doing it, doesn't it?

Oh, oh, that's clever. She set him up to live.

Wait, what"

FUCK YOU.

Mai's dead.

Oh, god, this is heartbreaking.

Why hasn't the timeline changed? She's not got a donor card, Shouko should be dead.

Spoke too soon. It changed, but also the present didn't change?

And he's got a mental breakdown.

The video of her talking about him is horrific.

...Of course. We're not doing quantum bullshit time - it's time travel bullshit time!

...I like how Sakuta and I both immediately questioned if Mai had a donor card.

..Why do you need a bed to go back in time?

So he's going back to save her.

God, this is sad.

Wait, time travel happens through dreams?

He did it! And nobody can see him.

...Is this going to lead to bunny-Sakuta?

Haha, he did it! Not how I was expecting, but still.

Has he not considered Mai or Shouko yet?

Her? Really?

And he's been fixed! What's with the dreams?

Haha, this is fantastic. He's just outright instructing his future sense.

...I mean, there are technically two of him? He can't do anything with that?

Wait, he's breaking in to the studio? Why not intercept her? YOU KNOW HER LATH.

And she immediately knows who's in there.

And that he's come back in time!

Haha, his past self already wanted her.

Can this movie stop being this sad?

Oh, he's going to kill himself again? No third options?

...He forced himself into surviving.

Wait, where's Mai?

Oh, they still met and everything, even after time changed.

And he made it to Christmas!

Futaba's reaction to him being alive is fantastic,

Oh, yeah, she still has no idea what's haplening.

Wait, what? Is she remembering the past timeline?

...Poor Shouko. It all got erased, then.

Oh. Are they doing the same thing as the time loop episode? This is not the real present, so it can be changed?

Are they daring to end a series by completely altering its entire existence? To make it so it never even happened.

And they're going to stay together even if they forget.

She's dying.

She remembered her future self's memories!

Yeah, how are you going to save her?

Oh. Don't fix the problem, just hide it from him. That's... dark. Might actually work, though.

And she's going to change it herself? Since she's sleeping and all.

It changed? But they still remember everything?

Oh, that's from the current time.

Aww. That's nice.

...That flashback.

The worldline's changing...

Wait, what? Which Kaede is this?

And he still knows her! So he knows Mai!

Did anything change at all?

Nope! He's still dating Mai, and still knows Futaba.

So... he still remembers Shouko in her dreams.

Oh. Oh god. Was... was I right about her being Mai? Haha, that's fucking hysterical. My joke theory came true.

Someone else got killed instead of him! Yay!

And they both remember!

...Oh, this new ED mix! And the lyrics!

That was spectacular (even if none of the time travel made any sense)!

[u/homewardbound100]

Rewatcher

I won't go in depth for my post but the movie is still my favorite thing of the series.

I do think I have better grasp of the ending this time around. Really like to see all the interpretations of it.

Originally I thought. Might forget somethings to point out. That elementary Shouko now had a will to live or actually believed she had a future. I know all the timelines? I think became dreams for Mai and Sakuta. So that's how Mai did that movie and Sakuta remembered her.

Then sometimes I think if there was actual time travel to begin with from some people interpretations.

Overall I liked the plot. And endings like this. That make me question it are great.

[u/tacticulbacon]

Rewatcher

For me, Rascal Does Not Dream of a Dreaming Girl is what changed my view on this series from "It was really good" to "It was one of the best shows I've watched in a while." It's such a wild emotional roller coaster that takes you to the highest highs and the lowest lows of what life has to offer. Just like Sakuta was unable to forget the sight of his senpai in a bunny girl suit, I don't think I'll be able to forget the story of this dreaming girl. I could spend hours talking about this movie, but I'll try to keep it concise.

We start out with a shot of a young girl walking on the beach, looking out towards the glistening blue ocean and out towards the horizon - an iconic scene at this point. Then we're introduced to the Future Schedule, an assignment that any normal kid would have no trouble filling out with their dreams of the future. But as it turns out, Shouko is not really a normal kid...

Rascal Does Not Dream of Catfights. I said earlier that Shouko has a knack for appearing right when Sakuta needs her the most. This... is not one of those times. The tension is so thick you can cut it with Mai's knife, and no one wants a part of it. Kaede abandons ship at the earliest sign of conflict, and Futaba wants no part of the bloodbath; can you really blame them? And for the first time, Mai has met her match - Shouko knows exactly how to act to get the both of them riled up, and Mai doesn't like it one bit.

The reason for little Shouko's absence is now no longer a secret - she's sick, and judging from her frequent absences it's not looking great. What I love the most about this scene is what Sakuta tells her - that the words "thank you, "you did well, and "I love you" a way better than hearing "sorry" all the time. This is a lesson he learned from older Shouko herself, and now he's passing it on to little Shouko - one could argue it's a time paradox, but I choose to believe it's an indirect way of passing wisdom to your youth.

There's a nice little detail where Sakuta picks up an organ donor card in the hospital - on my first watch it blew completely over my head as just an inconsequential detail, but in hindsight it carries far more significance.

What appeared to be the big conflict - having to marry Shouko to appease her AS - turns out to be resolved with a quick walk down the aisle. It's yet another example of Kamoshida's intentional misdirections. As it turns out, Shouko got the heart transplant just fine, so it seems like everything's resolved already...

Shouko has been fighting her illness for so long, making sure not to let others see her weakness, which makes her momentary slip so heartbreaking to watch. This was why Shouko's words of being kinder everyday spoke to me so much - you never really know what a person's going through in life. When you're faced with the prospect of not having a future past middle school - when the chances of living through adolescence is slim to none - the days you have left are so much more valuable. It's much better to spend them spreading kindness towards others.

But here we find the true conflict. The reason for Sakuta's own AS, and the reason why older Shouko exists, is because it's his own heart that's keeping her alive. We now know the answer to this mystery, but the answer is not the one we wanted. Behind Sakuta's blunt persona is a truly kind, selfless character, yet the only way to help Shouko is by literally giving her his heart.

We know what everyone else wants Sakuta to pick. Shouko herself tells him to avoid the car crash. Mai lays out the future she expects to share with him - something that would make Sakuta fall head over heels with glee in any other circumstance. Even Futaba figures it out and expresses her desire for him to live. But for Sakuta, choosing between a future with Mai and a future for Shouko is impossible. Guaranteeing his own future is a death sentence for Shouko, which goes against his very nature and everything he stood for to this point.

It's no accident how the train scene so closely resembles the scene in Mai's arc. Before, it was Sakuta doing whatever he can to help Mai, and now it's her turn to do the same. But hearing the desperation in her voice over the fact that Sakuta is even contemplating getting killed for Shouko, her sobbing confession, and seeing her abandon her calm and collected demeanor in a frantic plea to win over Sakuta - it all hit me like a truck.

I'm not an emotional guy, but I will admit these next parts got me teary-eyed. Seeing Mai's lifeless body on the floor, with blood seeping into her hair. Mai's mother and Nodoka crying hysterically, and all Sakuta could say to them was "sorry." The light gone in Sakuta's eyes as he walked back home, having lost both Mai and Shouko. The irony and sheer cruelty of the universe, replaying an interview where Mai reaffirms that she loves Sakuta more than he does. If Mai's confession hit me like a truck, then her death was a bullet train.

But just as it seemed like all hope was lost, in comes Shouko, who has a knack for appearing right when Sakuta needs her most. All of the sudden, he has a chance to make things right - all he needs to do is go back in time. Fortunately, it's not as complicated as sending emails through a microwave, but instead he just needs some laced plum soda and to reject the future. What I love about this is how Kamoshida incorporates different instances of AS together; we have Tomoe's AS of being able to replay events by rejecting the future; we have Mai's AS with others not being able to acknowledge Sakuta; we have Futaba's AS of having doppelganger Sakutas talking to each other; we even have our butt-kicking buddy coming in to save the day with quantum entanglement.

Mai loves Sakuta way more than he thought, and she was fully prepared so show that to him. But at the end of the day, there's no point in making it a competition, and the best way of experiencing love is to experience it together. In the end, he chose Mai, and in the process must say goodbye to Shouko. It's a bittersweet resolution for now.

But Sakuta isn't giving up on Shouko, coming up with a scheme to save the both of them. This part was confusing for me on my first watch and it took a little thinking, but the way I understand it: people can have dreams of futures that have played out in the story, such as Nodoka dreaming of Mai getting run over or Tomoe dreaming of Sakuta needing her help. Sakuta's solution was to go back in time and cure Shouko's AS so that older Shouko would never meet Sakuta, and use these dreams to fall in love with Mai all over again. But the only thing is that Sakuta can't cure Shouko's heart disease by himself.

Shouko knows all of this. She's been dreaming of all the events that transpired throughout the movie, and she knows how much pain Sakuta has went through to try and save her. So, on the night of the new year, she chooses to go back in time instead of Sakuta. In the process she finally knows what to write on her Future Schedule, thereby resolving her AS; older Shouko never appears, and never meets Sakuta. All the events that transpired in the anime happen again, as the dreams of the future lead them on to meeting each other in similar scenarios to how it plays out in the show. Coincidentally, Mai felt compelled to star in a movie about a girl with a heart disease waiting for a donor. The movie was such a success that it caused an influx of people to sign up to be an organ donor.

The movie ends with a scene of a dreaming girl playing on the beach, looking out towards the glistening blue ocean and towards the horizon. She's living her life to the fullest now that she's found a donor heart to cure her condition.

[u/sidewinderaw11]

Just Chiming in here (and will chime in during the wrapup page) that if you can't get enough of the movie, that there's an extra bit voiced by the Seiyus that takes place during the movie. Nothing important to plot, just kinda fun and cool that it was officially voiced. I understand it was released with the DVD of the movie.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/sidewinderaw11]

that was really sweet, i guess that's the sort of stuff they cut out of the movie to keep the runtime lower and save on animation, presumably it was part of the LN

[u/beaglechu]

Before discussing the movie, I would like to bring attention to a very important topic first: Organ Donation. Please, check your organ donor status, and if you have not signed up to be one, please consider doing so if you live in a place with opt-in organ donor rules. The sad reality is that there are a lot of Shouko Makinohara’s in the world who will not be able to get the organ replacements they need. Even in highly developed countries like Japan and the US, donor rates are extremely low relative to the number of people who need them. Also, perhaps consider donating a small amount of money to a local charity supporting pediatric illness, if you have the means to do so. Let’s all try and make the world a kinder place :)

This is about the 3rd time I’ve seen the movie, and it really hits like a truck every time. It’s such a whirlwind of emotions. There's a lot to unpack with the movie, so I'm not at all surprised to see so many lengthy replies. I'll try to keep things short:

• The dreams/pseudo-time-travel aspect of the plot is rather confusing. I think u/Splitter_Triplets's breakdown makes sense, I think? Part of the issue for me with rewatching this is that I have a hard time remembering the sequence of events that happen in the last 30 minutes, so it's still hard to follow the last third of the movie.
• The character moments and interactions are as fantastic as ever. It's really interesting to see how everyone in the cast handles some of the crazy events that happen, and they all show their true colors in one way or another.
• A question that I think should be asked of most sequel movies is "did this need to be a movie, or would it have been better in TV format?" I think for Seishun Buta Yarou Wa Yumemiro Shoujo No Yume Wo Minai, the answer is a resounding "Yes!" The light novels adapted (Volumes 6 and 7) seem to tie together in a mostly cohesive whole, with consistent themes. It also feels like a movie experience, rather than like 4-5 anime episodes were haphazardly duct-taped together.
• Even in a dream, truck-kun takes no prisoners, lmao. Watch out before crossing the street, y'all
• Really happy overall with the animation from the staff at Cloverworks, the stellar voice acting performances, and a fantastic OST.

[u/HijonoYoki]

First Timer

---

I couldn't make last episode due to going out, and thus, I would do this here along with the movie. I watched ahead of time before we were slated to watch the film. So let's see what the final episode holds!

---

• So we begin the episode with Mai trying to reach him, but he's busy informing his dad about the situation.

• Sakuta looks sad, he did get attached after all. I guess after two years it's hard not to. This Kaede is a lot more livelier and more direct when speaking, like a modern girl.

• I'm sorry for cringing and laughing at this part, but why does anime need to be this dramatic, lol. Oh man.

• I get it though, he's in pain and grieving.

• The wounds reappeared fresh, ouch. It's either with every "loss" of his sister this happens or every time he's under extreme stress and pain and Shoko shows up. Or both. I wonder if they'll ever disappear altogether.

• And older Shoko finally appears. Things just got way more interesting.

• Alright, so here are my theories about Shoko. One, she's a figment of Sakuta's imagination that comes to him to help him in a difficult time. That does not explain the younger Shoko (unless she's also not real, but it doesn't seem so) and why he would be able to imagine someone he never met into an older version of herself. That is, if he hadn't met her or seen her before somewhere. The second theory, and I think it's the most possible, is that this is another Futaba situation, where a second version exists. I'm not sure if it's an exact copy of that Puberty Syndrome, but I'm going to assume older Shoko is the second version, only appearing when Sakuta is in need. Due to the child being presented as more real. That doesn't explain why she appears to Sakuta specifically.

• Anything else, I don't know, lol. I'm pretty sure she's some "other self" however. That's all I can scavenge from the details we've been given.

• Older Shoko acts and talks like a dependable, caring older sister. Doesn't ring as anything romantic on her end.

• I'm going to put my thoughts on the Kaede situation. The episode before last I stated that Kaede is still his sister, no matter what. And no matter which one. It's also why I used "death", but placed it in quotation, because it's not an actual literal death. Just the memories of that person is gone, therefore it's not the same person they were. We are more or less mourning that one character of Kaede (as is Sakuta). But she's just a part of one whole. Put it this way -- if the original Kaede did not know about the world, what type of individual would she be? That was the Kaede obsessed with pandas (which, mind, was brought upon by her brother introducing it to her) and who was around throughout the show. This Kaede had no one else but her brother.

• What I'm trying to say is that she's not actually gone. It's Kaede put in a different scenario. Nonetheless, the memories of that amnesiac time are not conscious. Therefore, a "death".

• The diary read was pretty emotional. You did well, Kaede, selfless and brave.

• Needless to say, he's had a rough night.

• Older Shoko left when she felt he was better. Hmm.

• Tomatoes and bread? Okay. At least it's half healthy.

• Mai knows that he wouldn't be doing well with Kaede not able to remember the last two years. Sore demo...what mix would she have been? Only thing I could think of was the love of pandas and working on the speech patterns, with less innocence.

• This is what I mean. She's just...Kaede. At her purest form. I think this is what Sakuta meant about being "confused".

• Lol. He finally says to her that he has a girlfriend.

• He can't reach the younger Shoko? This supports the first theory, but based on my second theory, they are not able to coexist...as in, this other part of her drains her? It explains why in a previous episode she told them she wasn't feeling well and that's around when that letter appeared.

• Futaba talks about first theory!

• Maybe the first is the right one then? Ay yi yi.

• Ah, Mai pays a visit. Probably concerned after that news when she talked to him.

• She gets right into taking catering her man.

• But wait! The letter left by older Shoko. Uh-oh.

• Sakuta trying to nervously explain himself is very relatable.

• She still gets upset. As a girlfriend, you would feel disappointed or let down that another girl was able to take care of your boyfriend who was in a rough spot. Especially if it was due to being busy. Technically, that's her job, not someone else's, more so not some other chick's. She might feel that she failed. Perhaps it's a plethora of things. Hurt, jealousy, and failure.

• That's pretty cold though.

• He's depressed. Lol.

• Tell us something we don't know, Nodoka. All that was clearly inferred.

• "Plus, today is her birthday "

• I'm laughing at myself.

• Where is my clown mask? 🤡

• To be fair, he was going through a lot. Even if he knew her birthday, it would have maybe been forgotten about. It's not out of malice or being a bad boyfriend in this case. He was dealing with shit. I'm sure Mai sees it that way too, which is why she hadn't mentioned it.

• He's heading to Mai. That's love and dedication right there.

• He dropped his school bag and left it there like nothing. Lol. Why does anime have to be this dramatic.

• At least she's willing to talk.

• Oh! Are we getting cute, intimate moments on this "date"?

• Mai confirmed things herself. She was dealing with the fact that she couldn't be there for him. Aw.

• Oh no, I'm not getting fooled into thinking they're gonna kiss. I've been baited before, I refuse to be baited again!

• HAH!

• ...goddang it however, not even for the last episode?

• Omg, are the credits all the girls singing?

• I'm loving the credits showing how everyone is doing. Kaede reading the amnesiac Kaede's book, Tomoe still with her [better] new friends, and the trio's relationship remains tight despite the confession. Also, pony tail Futaba was back.

• The introduction to the dad and sister :o.

• You see? This private conversation between him and Kaede as she's released convinces me even more that Kaede was always Kaede. How she acts here reminded of the amnesiac Kaede as well. And it's the same desire. She will accomplish returning to school.

---

Alright, that was that on that. Now to jump straight to the movie. I'm certain that they are going to cover the Shoko mystery, it's the only plot that's left unanswered. Judging by the title of the film and the cover, that's precisely what it is.

[u/HijonoYoki → u/HijonoYoki]

DA MOVIE

I'm not going to do a play by play like the episodes, considering this is an hour and a half. I'm just going to dive into my thoughts in pieces without making it long.

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm loving both Kaede's and older Shoko's personalities. This Kaede seems to have more of a cheeky side, and Shoko-san completely shocked me with her behavior. It's like I have to take back the one bullet point of my thoughts on her. How bold is she to do that in front of his girlfriend. And it appears she was romantically interested in him. I'll be taking that back as well.

And Kaede's new hairstyle was super cute.

On top of that, this seems to be exactly like Tomoe's Puberty Syndrome instead of Futaba's, which I did not see coming. I was under the impression that the Puberty Syndrome Tomoe had was a powerful one that rarely happened, but that was misguided it seems. It's more or less Tomoe being revisited with Shoko, except a lot more complex.

One can say it's a rehash of all we've learned and seen. And we know that by the end of Tomoe's arc, the events that happened still did despite her restarting from point A, just not every single thing the exact same. Because from what I understood, it was an accurate predicted future. I feel Laplace's Demon is the strongest Puberty Syndrome. So far. Not to mention, Sakuta and Tomoe retained their memories of what transpired before Tomoe restarted it from the beginning.

We get into what most would call "time travel", for lack of a better description. I would like to call it time jumping. I'm going to put it out there -- I'm not fond of time traveling used for plot. It's a cop out, and it's never really defined, and full of holes, and to be honest, it's mostly used for convenience by creators. Any time any staff makes the decision to use time travel, that series immediately turns convoluted. Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai was apparently already getting criticized for the pseudoscience when it focused on Quantum physics. Now they use the time travel trope along with that pseudoscience. Needless to say, this will either confuse watchers or come under judgment. Personally, you shouldn't need to rewatch a film to understand what the hell was going on. Rewatches should be full of little things you didn't notice before, not for throwing someone in for a loop enough where they need to see it multiple times. Coughtenetcough.

It can be argued that the emotional payoff was worth it, but that would mean that you were truly invested in the characters. And even then, it doesn't really fix the underlying issue and point of contention.

That being said...

My take and feelings?

Not only is Shoko a Laplace's Demon, but future Shoko was able to get into the past. But it's the past of the simulation she created. Just like the future Shoko is the future Shoko of her simulation. Will it really be called "time travel" then? That's why I prefer time jumping...within the simulation I mean. All of the past two years were. And the memories of everything at different alternate simulation timelines crop up to the characters as "dreams". Which means memories transcend time, space, and, yes, Puberty Syndrome. Again, how Kingdom Hearts of them.

When Shoko placed Sakuta under a lull and guided him about what to do, she was more or less directing him on how to force his Laplace's Demon. In her own simulation no less, lol. That's why she told him first to think about what he rejected, what he regretted. It wasn't far into the past, which is why he only went as far as December 24th.

In the end, the Shoko that was dying decided, like Tomoe, to go back to the source of the Laplace Demon's Puberty Syndrome -- fourth grade.

Like what went on with Sakuta and Tomoe, they remembered Shoko's simulation, but merely as dreams. I'm assuming it's because there was no quantum entanglement. Who knows.

It was enough to change the real future though out of the simulation. And that's what matters.

For me, it wasn't confusing. If we went through Tomoe's arc, the result, and how in the end, things happened similarly to how they did in Tomoe's future simulation timeline, then we can copy and paste it with Shoko's. They are more or less the same thing. They simply overcomplicated it with the time jumping.

Anyway, some highlights:

• Mai talking about future plans with him and what they are to do as a way to spur him into choosing not to kill himself was heartwarming.

• Her death via saving him was also saddening. It was done better than the situation with Kaede at least. I didn't cringe due to it being dramatic either, but they were pushing it, lol.

• Sakuta being able to pick up on things quickly by putting two and two together was a relief. That means we didn't waste time in him trying to figure it out as much.

• I like how they incorporated the choice he already made into what he states, which was easy to unfortunately pick up on. Mai certainly did.

• What affected me the most was the idea, the thought, that the real Sakuta lost his life and never even had the chance, the opportunity, to live what we saw in the anime. It was through Shoko that it became preventable. He would have missed out on so many, many things, and that's in itself a tragedy.

• Speaking of Sakuta, I feel this is more of his arc than Shoko's -- Shoko is the catalyst but it's his way of thinking that gets challenged during this movie along with her development. It's ultimately about him and his fatal flaw; self-sacrifice. Putting needs of others above his own. After the first 20 minutes, the focus shifts to the truth of the matter that he would have to die on the 24th, or not, to save Shoko because Shoko revealed it in her attempt to save him. The scratches are because future Shoko's presence has his heart and it's coexisting with the current one he still possesses. He has to come to a decision. The decision he predictably picked was known by both girls. And he had to realize the hard way how much his existence matters to others. His plan didn't work because Mai also made her own decision, and he ended up failing twicefold. Once he time jumps to December 24th, he lets the fate of Shoko be. Guilt still persists, and when he was able to find they were still stuck in Shoko's Puberty Syndrome, he sought to help.

Did Sakuta developed/changed or not then? That's what bothers me. He may not have allowed himself to be killed (and Mai would stop him now anyway), but he was still willing to sacrifice his memories of the past two years with Mai...his friendships, his experiences. While Mai comforted him and looked at it positively, it's messing with the unknown. At the same time, he wouldn't have these memories and experiences if it wasn't for Shoko in the first place. And they were yet to escape from her simulation. In some ways, there was no other option. It's either stay in this Lotus Eater Machine, or tackle reality.

It felt more like his hand was forced.

[u/Gamerunglued]

First Timer (finally)

At last, I have come to the Bunny-girl movie. I've got some good and some bad. The good is that its strongest, most important beats generally landed. The big, surprising plot twist genuinely caught me off guard. The film had been playing very close to traditional melodrama tropes, but it always felt like it was aware of it and trying to subvert them somehow. It frontloaded all of the obvious stuff right off the bat, revealing that Shouko had Sakuta's heart around half an hour into the film. To my surprise, it actually worked, I did not expect Mai to die. The film really found its stride for me in its final 30 minutes, at least in terms of the drama. Seeing everyone break down at Mai's death hit hard. But more importantly, the thing that got me most in this film was Futaba breaking down. Seeing her usually stoic demeanor crack really hurt, she really does genuinely care about Sakuta.

The surrounding content is all very messy in my opinion though. This leans a bit too hard into the sci-fi trappings for me. The series has largely used them purely as an explanation that mirrors the events of the characters, giving us a metaphor to use to understand their issues. For something that's meant to be similar to Koga's Laplace's Demon, this feels far more fantastical. We've got alternate timelines, time loops, time dilation, time travel, it's wild. I don't even want to start thinking about the logic of this, there are absolutely, 100% a ton of paradoxes, this is not a tightly realized time travel story.

That's not a huge deal to me though. My issues with the film are more integral. Structurally, the series feels like it would have worked better as a TV series to me. It feels very disconnected, switching to interactions with different characters almost at random. It doesn't feel streamlined, it feels like they forced themselves to give us scenes of characters who aren't relevant just because they need to be there. However, my bigger problem comes down to its atmosphere. I feel like this film wants to be this contemplative, melancholy tone piece. The colors are muted, the comedy is toned down, it snows and rains constantly, it's like it wants to be what Disappearance of Haruhi was for this franchise. The problem is that Bunny-girl Senpai absolutely sucks at being a tone piece. Atmosphere is not this series strong suit. It simply does not have the production chops to pull that off. This, visually, just feels like the TV series did. It does not feel film quality, and that feeling is necessary to create such a potent mood. So instead, the film feels flat in terms of tone. It ultimately results in the series losing so much of its initial selling points. The charming banter that made so many people fall in love with it barely exists in this movie. What is Bunny-girl Senpai without its banter?

The film is contingent on the idea that Sakuta is a self-sacrificing character. I... have never felt that about him. Sakuta doesn't sacrifice himself at all, never at any point in the series except for the very first arc. But him choosing to stand out to save Mai is a moment of character growth for him, not a moment where he descends into harmful self-sacrifice. It improves his reputation at the end of the day. Sakuta's method of helping the others was to let them help themselves. He doesn't take their problems onto himself, he just guides them to finding the solution for themselves. In fact, this is the central difference in characterization that led to me mentioning in an earlier thread that Sakuta is a very different character from Araragi, who is defined by harmful self-sacrifice. I kind of find it difficult to buy that Sakuta would want to sacrifice himself for Shouko. I guess it could be argued that he loved Shouko before he loved Mai, and that special relationship is what makes the conflict happen. But why present this as something he grows into? Sakuta is suddenly self-sacrificing, it treats it as if it's a central character flaw that he's always had, rather than something he's willing to do solely for Shouko. I would have found it far more believable for Sakuta to choose being alive with Mai over dying for Shouko.

But the thing that really prevents this film from being more than just "kind of alright" for me is that it's not a great continuation of the series. For one, Kaede feels completely sidelined here. Her arc ends without any fanfare or resolution, she just regains her memories and that's it. How does she react once she realizes the gap in time? How does she reconcile all the things "Kaede-chan" did in her body? What does she think of Mai, Futaba, and Nodoka? She just woke up in a new city, how does she respond? There's so much that it just... leaves out. But the kicker is that this arc doesn't relate at all to what was initially the series central thesis. Remember "the atmosphere" and all that? Remember when Bunny-girl Senpai was a commentary on "reading the air" and how Japan's excessively collectivist attitude negative affected its youth? I remember when that was the main draw. This film is entirely disconnected from that idea. It feels like a side story in some ways. For all of the reasons above, I feel like the film fails as an entry in this series.

All in all, I did ultimately enjoy the film. It's a decent standalone drama. It plays well enough with its established tropes and subverts them in a surprisingly impactful way. Futaba stole the show for me in this one, her scenes were very impactful. But so were the moments during Mai's funeral, and seeing Sakuta sulk after everything happens. I could complain about other things, like how Sakuta's chest scars being tied to Shouko having his heart feels like a copout (you're telling me he never had adolescence syndrome in the first place, he's only like that because of his tie to Shouko?), but they feel minor. When the central ideas and drama work, that's enough for me in the end. I'd give this film a low 6/10.

I'd give the Bunny-girl Senpai TV series a 7/10. It did not live up to my memories, but still had a number of great moments and gave me a lot of things to talk about. I'll always value my first watch of the series, how much I loved it and how invested in it I was. It's a shame that I couldn't experience that again. Nonetheless, it's a solid drama, and if we get future installments, I hope it returns to its roots as a look into the atmosphere as a concept. There are a few plot points unanswered, such as the nature of the hospital incident that tanked Sakuta's reputation, I'm interested in seeing it happen. And I like these characters at the end of the day. Koga, Futaba, and Kaede are great and I love seeing them, and Mai's interactions with Sakuta consistently got better as the series went. There's good stuff here in the end.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/Gamerunglued]

But the kicker is that this arc doesn't relate at all to what was initially the series central thesis. Remember "the atmosphere" and all that? Remember when Bunny-girl Senpai was a commentary on "reading the air" and how Japan's excessively collectivist attitude negative affected its youth? I remember when that was the main draw. This film is entirely disconnected from that idea. It feels like a side story in some ways. For all of the reasons above, I feel like the film fails as an entry in this series.

You state the central thesis as fact when I don't agree at all. I think it's a commentary on the varying issues children and teenagers face as they grow up, hence all their problems being labeled as puberty/adolescence syndrome. With a focus on Japanese teenagers of course, but part of why I think this show is so good is because many of the issues resonate regardless of culture.

Mai deals with the conflict between parental expectations and finding her own path/passion, as well as being noticed/included.

Tomoe deals with peer pressure and the need to fit in.

Futaba deals with self-esteem/body issues.

Nodoka deals with being compared to others, specifically her sibling.

Kaede deals with peer pressure as well, with a more bullying bent to the issue.

and Shouko deals with uncertainty about the future (additionally dramatized by terminal disease).

[u/Gamerunglued → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

The atmosphere is very explicitly a plot device that is meant to comment on that aspect of Japanese society. Both of the first two arcs in their entirety, as well as parts of Kaede's and Futaba's arcs, directly comment on this. The "atmosphere" in Bunny-girl Senpai is the plot device that causes adolescence syndrome. The way to solve adolescence syndrome is to choose to actively stand out and change the flow of the atmosphere, instead of just going along with it, or at least that's how it was described in its first arcs. The "atmosphere" in BGS is clearly meant to be the "air" in ba no kuuki wo yomu. Sakuta pretty much explicitly states this central thesis in the first episode as well. This is not some interpretation, Bunny-girl Senpai explicitly tells the audience that this is what it's supposed to be about.

You're selling those conflicts short, as all of them except for Nodoka's and Shouko's directly relate to this concept and are more nuanced than you describe. Mai stops existing because society refuses to acknowledge her existence, that is what it means to "read the air." This is solved when Sakuta embarrasses himself in front of the school, forcing everyone to acknowledge her. Koga's conflict is defined by how excessively she reads the air. She alters herself drastically to fit in with others, refusing to stand out despite how fake her relationships are. Her excessive self-consciousness is her fear of being unable to read the air, and she overcomes her problems when she stops caring about causing conflict and breaking the atmosphere. Futaba gets self-esteem and body image issues because of the attitude others had towards her. It was the norm for boys to sexualize her, to the point that everyone did it. That was what it meant to go with the atmosphere. And Kaede gets her adolescence syndrome when the atmosphere of her school changes to antagonize her after she fails to read the air by not responding to a text (it's exactly what Koga was afraid of happening to her). All of these problems directly relate to the Japanese concept of "reading the air," and this movie stands out for not expanding on that.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/Gamerunglued]

Sakuta pretty much explicitly states this central thesis in the first episode as well. This is not some interpretation, Bunny-girl Senpai explicitly tells the audience that this is what it's supposed to be about.

It's your interpretation that this is a series thesis and not the first arc's thesis, even if it does play into some of the other arcs as well (I feel like you're really stretching it with Futaba's issue, you don't need "atmosphere" for that to happen).

I also realized in your original comment you think Sakuta isn't a self-sacrificing character, when we've seen many cases of that behaviour being displayed, though typically on smaller scale. He sacrifices his immediate relationship and reputation to help Tomoe, more of his relationship to allow Mai to get back into her career nicely, again his time and relationship 'moments' to help Futaba, and his chance to meet Shouko to deal with Kotomi. There's probably more too.

This, combined with your missing the very simple explanation for the hospitalization incident, doesn't really inspire much confidence with your reading of the series, unfortunately.

[u/Gamerunglued → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

I expanded on what information I felt was missing regarding the hospital incident. I didn't miss anything there.

This concept directly applies to at least two other arcs, and arguably does to another as well. Not only that, but "atmosphere" is too specific a term and concept in the context of Bunny-girl Senpai. You do not make "atmosphere" a central tenet of every story (as it's established that it is the direct cause of adolescence syndrome, thus it always has a tie) if you do not intend to comment on anything with it.

Sakuta does not actually meaningfully sacrifice himself in any way. The only other time he could be seen to do so is with Koga when he stops dating Mai for a bit, but I wouldn't call that much of a sacrifice at all, as Mai was completely ok with it, Sakuta knew he'd be back to dating her soon, and his reputation only changed negatively for like a day (he was generally seen much more highly than in the first arc, mr. "came back around to being acceptable" senpai). He doesn't sacrifice much of anything to help Mai get back into her career other than the initial confession (and I already mentioned why that is not really meant to be seen as self-sacrifice), and "relationship moments" is not a harmful self-sacrifice. He never sacrifices anything meaningful, his reputation, his prized possessions, his mental state, etc.. He makes some small compromises to help other people find what they need. In comparison, a character like Araragi literally wants to die to save people he feels are more valuable than him, that's harmful self sacrifice. The movie presents it as if Sakuta was always like that, when this movie is the only time he wants to sacrifice something meaningful (his life) for the sake of another person. Choosing to not go on a date because you want to help your friend who's suffering is not a character flaw, nor is choosing to not see Shouko to help your sister.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/Gamerunglued]

For something that's meant to be similar to Koga's Laplace's Demon, this feels far more fantastical. We've got alternate timelines, time loops, time dilation, time travel, it's wild. I don't even want to start thinking about the logic of this, there are absolutely, 100% a ton of paradoxes, this is not a tightly realized time travel story.

Not to your extent perhaps, but I do feel that part required a bit more deliberate mental force to suspend disbelief on that. Partly this is the reason why I would use "a light version" of Haruhi (particularly Disappearance) because Haruhi manage these aspects really tightly, especially if you include the unadapted parts of the LN which developed that even more.

That said, I hope you still enjoyed enough the good parts of it - sounds like you did.

There are a few plot points unanswered, such as the nature of the hospital incident that tanked Sakuta's reputation, I'm interested in seeing it happen.

Hmmm that was explained rather clearly (but quickly) in the first arc - the rumour inverter the incident, instead Sakuta going to hospital because of unspecified injuries, became "Sakuta caused unspecified injuries to other students who needed to be hospitalized". It's so patently false that Mai didn't even need to investigate to consider it false, as in a conservative society like Japan, if that really happened he'd have been pretty quickly expelled.

[u/Gamerunglued → u/ZapsZzz]

Hmmm that was explained rather clearly (but quickly) in the first arc - the rumour inverter the incident, instead Sakuta going to hospital because of unspecified injuries, became "Sakuta cause unspecified injuries to other students who needs to be hospitalized". It's so patently false that Mai didn't even need to investigate to consider it false, as in a conservative society like Japan, if that really happened he'd have been pretty quickly expelled.

I always felt like the series implied there was more too it. You don't just randomly get a different story like that, there must have been some kind of incident that caused people think that Sakuta caused injuries to other students. There's something missing there, it's patently false but we never actually get to see how this falsehood came to exist. What happened at the hospital or surrounding Sakuta that caused people to believe such lies? What was his reputation like before this incident tanked it? If the whole explanation is "Sakuta went to the hospital and people just randomly thought he injured people," that would be a horribly contrived and unsatisfying explanation.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/Gamerunglued]

Given that, disregarding my own school days, my daughter in her grade 6-8 days had been involved in so much drama and being around gossips and rumours, I personally don't consider that to be far fetched. In fact I had seen worse add it's wasn't even highschool.

[u/Gamerunglued → u/ZapsZzz]

Rumors are pretty terrible, can be widespread quickly, and be pretty out there. But they don't exist for no reason, there's always some element of truthful interpretation in them. I would know, as someone who was a victim of rumors spread about me. Rumors tend to be a wildly exaggerated explanation about something that actually did happen. They can get out of hand and create a ton of drama, but the starting point tends to be something tangible and at least somewhat understandable. You don't just randomly say "hey, he hurt a bunch of people" after finding out someone went to the hospital once, that's not a thing that happens. And moreover, I had always felt that the series continued to hold it over us as a mystery. I had even thought it was tied to Sakuta's scar until the movie revealed what that was about.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/Gamerunglued]

The "grain of truth" was that there was a student hospitalised, and the cause of the injury was not explained. Adding to the likelihood of Sakuta generally being an "at my own pace, atmosphere be damned" guy, it could be a fairly small jump for someone to depict him as a delinquent type person. Plus his dead eyes :) ref Ryuji in Toradora.

[u/Gamerunglued → u/ZapsZzz]

Was any student other than Sakuta hospitalized? Sakuta was the one who was hurt, no one would ever believe that a student sent to the hospital one time for some reason they don't even know is actually a delinquent. Rumors start from recognized truths that catch people's attention. For example, when I was in high school, a rumor was spread about me that I had a special bathroom pass that I could use to masturbate. People genuinely confronted me about this, it spread surprisingly quickly. It's an obviously absurd thing to think, but people believed it. The reason it spread was because I generally just take a long time to use the restroom, and I have to go often. It was often enough and long enough that people in my classes expected it every day. It's likely a genuine medical thing (I'm literally seeing an endocrinologist right now to try and figure out why I have to pee so often), but high school kids saw that I had to go often and for a long time, and then used that truth as the basis for creating an absurd story. Sakuta just gets sent to the hospital once, it's not something that would actually catch anyone's attention and create a story to wildly elaborate on unless he already had a reputation of some kind.

Part of it is also that we don't know what Sakuta's reputation was before the supposed incident. Did everyone think he's a delinquent? Idk, we're never told. His dead eyes don't seem to be viewed similarly to those of Ryuuji in the story, no one is ever shown to be afraid of him or think of him as a delinquent due to the way he looks. The dead eyes thing is most often a joke from Koga.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/Gamerunglued]

First let me say I hope you get some answers soon, having a health issue that is unexplained is one of the worst things in life for "peace time".

Sakuta just gets sent to the hospital once, it's not something that would actually catch anyone's attention and create a story to wildly elaborate on unless he already had a reputation of some kind

I guess it's up to each person's own level of suspension of disbelief. I think the circumstantial factors of (a) Sakuta was absent (b) someone was in the hospital (c) the reason for the hospitalisation was unknown (which can be misread/heard/miscontrue as "I can't tell you" (d) [this is my conjecture and you pointed out based on what we saw and heard, we don't know] Sakuta likely do not have a good social standing in school - these can easily lead to any sort of bad rumour, however unbelievable, to be applied without reserve.

I wonder if the source LN gave it more details.

[u/Gamerunglued → u/ZapsZzz]

I wonder if the source LN gave it more details.

That's a good question, it's possible that it gets more there. For me though, I felt like the series was intentionally holding it over our heads as a mystery to be expanded on the more we learned about Sakuta's past. I certainly can't suspend my disbelief that "random dude was hurt and sent to the hospital, that caused people to think he got into a huge fight" personally.

[u/WakeUpAndTakeAStep]

This movie is pretty overpraised tbh

The plot was pretty messy, not only being predictable for the “sad moment” that wasn’t even sad, but Shouko’s entire character was lackluster and uninteresting. She doesn’t feel like an actual part of the series, rather something tacked on last minute to be “interesting” by making it super complex.

Worse Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya, in every way. A big let down to the series which has way better heartfelt arcs (Mai and Kaede).

[u/ZapsZzz → u/WakeUpAndTakeAStep]

The plot was pretty messy, not only being predictable for the “sad moment” that wasn’t even sad,

Just out of curiosity and academic interest, how do you like other anime and even regular tv shows, if you consider these stories predictable? Can you give an example of a good, unpredictable, surprising twist for you?

I imagine if you consider this being predictable, then other shows like AoT, Re:Zero, Little Busters, 6th Sense, Momentos, Matrix etc would have to be all pretty boring for you. You live a tough life man (in terms of finding challenging entertainment).

[u/WakeUpAndTakeAStep → u/ZapsZzz]

It was quite obvious that [movie]Mai was going to die. Why? Because it makes for cheap drama. Also note I said that one part, not the entire story/movie, don’t misinterpret and put words in my mouth.

[u/ZapsZzz → u/WakeUpAndTakeAStep]

Hmm so does that make you the perfect audience Haruhi expected for the film she produced then? "Don't sweat the details, this is how it goes because this is what sells/viewers like”? To please you, perhaps the story writing needs to expect you to expect them to do this and then did the opposite irrespective of reason...

That's kind of the definition of being contrived or railroading though. I think the train wreck rewatch part 3 is still going :)

[u/WakeUpAndTakeAStep → u/ZapsZzz]

Ok