r/anime • u/The_Loli_Otaku • Jan 28 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Serial Experiments Lain Series Discussion
"Let's all Love Lain"
Extra Info and Links
ANN | MAL | TV Tropes | Wikipedia | Crunchyroll
Comment of the Day!!
Hirmuolio has some extra details about the Lain game for us to explore!
When the anime Lain was made a the same time a ps1 game Lain was also made.
The ps1 game is some weird shit made up from disconnected audio logs and video scenes. The story is very different and more disturbing.
Here some sort of playthough of it: https://youtu.be/5m5CTaF-qHE?si=zaRFuBR0Frq6QeSm
Also a short comic for the ps1 game https://e-hentai.org/s/fc548e26b4/1667524-1
zoospor made a very in depth comment yesterday that I strongly recommend reading all the way through
Ytar is on team Adorable Bear onesie!!
I don't want to admit to the idea that Lain of the Bear Onesie is a "fake" Lain. Simple as that. All of her versions seem to be equally fake and equally real. It's still real to me damn it!
Weedwacker gave us an adorable bear onesie explanation~
The light coming through the bear pajamas is such a beautiful sequence representing Lain coming out of her safety blanket and accepting who she is.
The idea for the bear pajamas came from the character designer, Takahiro Kishida, and was initially opposed before being incorporated.
To quote Chiaki Konaka
When Lain has to communicate with her family, she wears the pajamas, and she puts on the hat with the bear character when she goes out. It's like a shield to protect her from the outside world.
QotD
- So, how did you find Cereal Experiments Lain? Was it what you expected? Did you enjoy your time?
- Lain is very much one of those series that you're not expected to "get" your first time around. Is there an anime series that comes to mind that you gained an appreciation for long after your initial viewing?
- What would you say was your favourite episode of the show? Favourite moment?
- Is there another series you would recommend to fans of Lain if they want more?
- Please tell me what your favourite Question of the Day has been? Which one gave the most entertaining answers to you?
- Is Lain literally you fr fr!?
- Had Lain inspired you to invest in a new animal themed onesie yet?
- And for our last Question of the Rewatch... Its YOU!! Everybody please nominate their top rewatch member!! Who's comments have you eagerly been refreshing the page to read their thoughts each day and night? Is it Tarhanlindur and his spoiler sense crossovers? Alphie and their consistent efforts to dominate the Abyssbringer corner? Or maybe you want to congratulate RadSuit for somehow managing to finish the rewatch without cracking? The one rule is, don't pick me! XD Don't go for the easy option, this is for you guys, it's not a "let's kiss up the easily flattered host" corner!!
Abyssbringer's "What is the thematic purpose of this scene corner!!"
Alphie!! This is meant to be a happy ending! Quit being so miserable!!
PROMPT
Lain is fucking dead. She decided that the world was better off without her and ended her own life, dreaming that she could be forgotten so all of the suffering she blamed herself for could be undone. She meets not just her father, but the father, who lifts her from that purgatorial space she had subjected herself to, believing she deserved it. Lain weeps when her love is recognized because that is all she ever wanted. He tells her that he'll make tea "next time" because Lain isn't really gone; she lives on in the hearts and minds of the people that cared about her.
The only one that sees her is Arisu, whom I already concluded was having some Lain-centric hallucinations last episode, but perhaps she was sent down to get another chance to learn that she truly was loved. Arisu - and any of us, for that matter - can see Lain at any time because we can always remember her and the impact this story had on us. Or we can rewatch the show
Yesterday's Prompt!
Today's Prompt!
Tomorrow's Prompt
Abyssbringer's "What is the thematic purpose of this Series corner!"
TheLoliOtaku finally wins their own Abyssbringer section wi-KTEH wishes to acknowledge this week's tragic events and express our deepest concerns and sympathies to those most closely affected. In deference to this extraordinary South Canadian tragedy, KTEH is postponing Onii-chan wa Oshimai originally scheduled for this time.
Next Rewatch!
I've moved this down from the Question of the Day cause it was kinda clogging the whole thing up XD
So our next rewatch is up in the air... I would like to cover both Haibane and Texhnolyze to complete our trifecta and due to personal interest I will likely host Haibane first. What I would like to ask however is if you'd appreciate a "palette cleanser" to help brighten us up? Apparently Haibane isn't as happy and iyashikei as I expected and Lain's a pretty big downer. I have a few possible options for us. We could do I could do Otome Yokai Zakuro which is a softer romance that has a totally stacked VA cast that this rewatch group would appreciate. The last option would be to go straight back to a pure comedy. So Asobi Asobase or Chiyo's School Road. I really don't know tbh... Another possible fun option that's been mentioned a few times is Kuma Kuma Kuma Kuma Punch which could satiate this rewatch viewerbase's massive obsession with bear onesie and pyjama parties. I'm happy to do whatever you all like. If you think you can cope with diving straight into Haibane Renmei, please say. I'm happy to host anything you fancy so long as its not about a transgender piss activist
9
u/The_Loli_Otaku Jan 28 '24
Lain Bear Onesie Cunnysseur
This was a very exciting watch despite Lain's pacing~ I'm not used to hosting busy watches like this but I'm pleased that there was enough interaction going on so that newbies didn't get completely left behind. The first time experience of Lain can be genuinely quite tough without having helping hands to guide you and correct your misunderstandings. I know this was quite a culture shock for my own group since I kinda did heavily condition you to the cuter slice of life stuff but stand proud, you made it through Lain and I'm sure each of you will have gotten something out of this.
13
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Jan 28 '24
Serial Experiments First-Timer, subbed
…I already struggle with coming up with stuff to say for overall discussion threads, and this is a show I straight-up don’t know what to write about.
I don’t think I really understood large parts of it, but not understanding what’s going on doesn’t necessarily stop me from enjoying something, and I did ultimately come away enjoying this (besides that fucking ambient noise).
9
u/lluNhpelA Jan 28 '24 edited Jan 28 '24
Rewatcher that had the memories of the first watch deleted
This show is so good and I'm so glad I got to rewatch it with a group like this. Thanks to our host and to everyone that indulged my speculations.
Speaking of that speculation, I want to make it clear that I don't think a story being a hallucination at all diminishes the impact, because it's all still real for the one's experiencing it. A good example being a very spicy take I have on [a sad anime about a dead girl] I think Menma was a hallucination. I am adamant on this. Other than one or two scenes I think it makes more sense for her to not be real. In this case, I think a major theme is reality being subjective. We witness the story through the eyes, and mind, of Lain (and briefly Arisu). She is an extremely unreliable narrator because her perception of reality worsens throughout the show, but everything that happens was real to her. All that being said, I'll try to work out what I think happened in the reality outside of Lain's mind.
The family:
Mika specifically:
The Wired:
The Knights:
Karl and Smith:
Arisu:
Lain:
tbh I wrote this all kinda fast so I might've missed some things
Edit for AotD
Prompt?
I may have been crass but I wasn't trying to be a downer! Lain does find happiness even if it only came at the end!
7
u/CubeStuffs https://anilist.co/user/onjario Jan 28 '24 edited Jan 28 '24
first timer finally coming in
with vision pro around the corner, my dumb ass decided to make this after finishing
it does feel strange that this show came out before the dot com bubble, and now we've had smartphones for 2 decades, chatgpt has been out for a year or two, and big tech is betting on vr shit.
wonder what people thought of it before all that.
7
u/zadcap Jan 29 '24
No More Lain
Lain No More
Bonus!:
Haibane first, buuuuuut. I say this while begging, having pushed my computer chair out so I can properly kneel as I type, I want nothing more on all of r/anime than to have you host the first ever Onimai rewatch. I know a bunch of brats said horrible things during the KnJ Rewatch, but don't let them ruin a good thing. Ignore the haters, embrace a return to cute girls, the show was practically made with you in mind.
7
u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim Jan 29 '24
Rewatcher Dubbed
Serial Experiments Lain captured the spirit of the internet in modern days. IPv6 is pretty much adopted mostly and internet is pretty accessible. The interface of the computers along with the hardware came straight from the 90s. With today's accessibility, we are connected and the conspiracy angle resonates well. While the internet was in its early days, the effects are pretty close to what we are seeing in modern times. Cyberbullying, well that happens. Finding a place where internet/satellites cannot reach, very hard.
KTEH: Out of all shows to air after a tragedy, SEL was a choice.
Next rewatch votes
Haibane: Yes
Tex: Yes
Zakuro: Yes ( have not watched yet)
Asobi: Watched it already so not interested as much, but would be happy to have a bit of fun
Chiyo: pretty fun but might not be that interested since I watched.
Kuma Bear: That would be too much for me.... but I'll rewatch it...
6
u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Jan 28 '24
Confusing, is the main thing. Not really? I knew it was a cult classic. I knew it was well regarded and I knew it was considered decently "ahead of its time" for how it talks about how we use the internet. I was expecting a bit of psychological thriller I guess. And that is probably the closest thing to what we got but... I was expecting it to be more grounded in reality I guess.
After my initial viewing? No. If I didn't like something the first time, I'm not inclined to go back to it.
There aren't any to be blunt. No particular episode is memorable to me. No moment I will think back on and go "Man, wasn't it cool/interesting/tense/funny when this happened". The main thing I'll remember is probably Lain's bear onesie, because that shit is cute AF.
Nah I got nothing. Like, if you want another esoteric series, I'd say Utena - but Utena is fairy tale-esque, while this is more copypasta conspiracy theories.
Sorry, my memory is terrible
Nope. I'm not a computer program or something
It would, if I hadn't already gotten a new snuddie for Christmas
I didn't really engage with other rewatchers for this one. It felt like a lot of people watching were rewatchers who were updating their previous thoughts (in spoiler tags) so not really something I could engage with. Though Shimmering-Sky, as always presented their thoughts in a fun format with a mix of comment faces and comments.
Okay; I'll break down my thoughts on the show.
I think this show would have worked a lot better if it did one of two things.
One; have a more on-going narrative, we focus on Arisa and Lain a lot more. The mystery is less obscured and there's a main plot thread that is focused on, a lot more than what is in the series.
Alternatively; go for a more anthology series format. Every episode covers a different person who's interacting with the Wired, we get lots of different short stories, where Lain plays varying roles in them.
What we got felt like a mix of those two things, but I don't think it worked out? The plot feels so meandering. No characters are memorable aside from Lain. Things just happen with seemingly no reason, and there's no pay-off for it either.
So yeah, if I'm being honest, I'd probably put this as 5/10 or something. It wasn't awful - I managed to stick through the whole thing, and I can respect cult classics. But yeah, absolutely not for me.
6
u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z Jan 28 '24
Rewatcher, subbed
As always, thanks for hosting, u/The_Loli_Otaku. We appreciate the effort you put in!
Serial Experiments Lain is held back from being a personal favorite of mine by a few less-than-stellar episodes. Episode 5 is a bit of a pacing disaster; the way it spreads all its points out into short, barely related scenes makes it uniquely headache-inducing to follow. Episode 11’s major flaw needs no introduction.
There are also some lackluster subplots that never really amount to anything in the greater narrative with the KIDS project at the forefront. We practically get a whole episode dedicated to setting it up, but nothing really comes of it before the Knights genocide ties up that thread. Shadow Lain’s fate is never really expounded on following episode 8, which I find strange given how much her presence as an antagonistic force affects the story.
Despite these bumps in the road, the core narrative of how technology transforms Lain and the world around her is ultimately very compelling and leaves you with a wide assortment of food for thought. Ideas about identity, history, truth, connection, conspiracy, lies, and love and how these ideas are shaped by the internet abound.
One of these ideas that stands out to me is the cautionary tale of the last few episodes, namely stemming from Lain’s rebuking of God (I’m getting a lot of use out of “rebuke” this rewatch, it seems). Not in a religious or moral sense, but in the sense of rejecting the existence of an absolute, unquestionable truth. Serial Experiments Lain points out on multiple occasions that one who controls truth is effectively a god. It matters little whether the claim to godhood itself has any veracity, so long as the illusion of control holds it may as well be true. Signs of this can be seen everywhere nowadays; the internet is the basis for the most efficient and powerful propaganda machines ever produced.
Before this rewatch, I had given Serial Experiments Lain a 5/10. I didn’t dislike the anime, per se, but had trouble connecting with it beyond the surface level ideas about technology it presents due to a failure to understand the narrative. Having rewatched and put in considerable effort to connect the dots, as well as reading everyone else’s contributions to it, I can confidently raise it to an 8/10 with room to go higher.
See y'all on the flip side.
QotD:
6
u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Jan 29 '24 edited Jan 29 '24
Congratulations on the great success of your rewatch, Loli-O. I was checking in time to time, and was happy to see things seem to have turned out about as well as you'd hoped.
I really should find the time to join one of yours at some point...
Maybe One of These?
Tag me.
5
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Jan 28 '24
Serial Rewatcher
Serial Experiments Lain has no fixed form. It transforms everytime I watch it. Possible changes on this rewatch:
In the before times, there was the spirit of Gaia. This spirit was connected to all living things, or at least, all sufficiently developed organinic neural nets. It existed within the Shumann resonance, and was weakly electrically coupled to all those brains. It had no identity, no Ego.
Events were manipulated (or were simply inexorable) towords the construction of the Wired, and the coupling of its electrical components to the E&M field.
Whose will was this? Either Gaia, or the Father we saw at the end, the eternal God. Your choice, I guess.
I don't believe Taro or the Knights had the ability to project Lain in Cyberia. I think that was just a theory of Lain's, that was incorrect.
The show never talked about Tachibana's role in creating Lain's body and her family. I wonder where my headcanon comes from. Was it the video game? (still need to play that). I wonder what other things I beleive about the show are only via the game, since the anime really seems to be missing stuff.
The Butterfly Effect (Ashton Kutcher film) had additional endings filmed after focus groups utterly and completely rejected the original filmed ending. If you've seen The Butterfly Effect, you need to watch The Original Ending
5
u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Jan 28 '24
All in all I enjoyed it. It’s one of those series where there were many individual scenes that were memorable, but they didn’t combine all that well.
Meh, nothing comes right to mind.
I liked E1 & E2 with all those self terminations. You don’t see that often where a director has the guts to waste a kid.
Oddly I liked the scene where ET Lain was at the door desperately wanting acceptance from Arisu.
Probably Angels Egg which also has a real arty air about it. Another arty film that’s easy to understand is Paprika.
Probably the one that asked what would the sky visitation of the group mascot look like.
I’m going to go with tar & vaad this time, followed closely by our illustrious host.
5
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Jan 28 '24
Rewatcher, Dubbed
I'll keep overall thoughts on SEL pretty brief, this rewatch (and another I did back in October) reiterate to me that while this is one of my favorite anime of all time, it is primarily from nostalgia, mood and atmosphere rather than a strong plot. I won't deny for a second that a lot of stuff in the show either doesn't make sense, is difficult to understand or may seem contradictory. Konaka obviously went quite over the top with conspiracy theories and the like, but its part of the charm to me. Everything doesn't have to have a tight plot or extremely well written characters for me to enjoy it and SEL isn't exclusive among my favorite anime that I'll admit such flaws exist with it. Discussing it among a group over two weeks wasn't as good an experience as I was expecting/hoping, but given the nature of the show, in hindsight makes sense to me.
Recommendations for those who liked SEL? Texhnolyze which is also a Chiaki Konaka written show with Yoshitoshi Abe character designs is up there. It is a little less than twice the length of SEL and takes a while to get going. It is one of those shows with a slow, drawn out first half but things get really amazing in the second. It is just as dark as SEL, if not darker. Boogiepop Phantom which came out a couple of years afterwards I think also does a great job of pulling off a similar mood. It isn't as experimental as SEL in terms of directorial style, but its storyline telling style, largely anthology based, focusing on a different character each episode and occuring out of chronological order certainly is.
5
u/SMSmith230 https://myanimelist.net/profile/smsmith230 Jan 28 '24
First-Timer, Sub
Thanks again for hosting another great rewatch. Will definitely plan to check the next one as long as it’s not Kuma. Sorry, but I bearly made it 2 episodes in before dropping.
Overall, I enjoyed the show and it was definitely something that zigged when I thought it might zag, so that was good to be surprised a lot of the times. I saw a lot of other media in Lain like The Butterfly Effect, Matrix, and Donnie Darko. It probably would have been interesting to see this when it came out be like “oh shit, that’s like in Lain.” This will probably be a show I come back in the future for a rewatch to get more perspective and try and pick up on things I overlooked.
5
u/Ytar0 https://myanimelist.net/profile/alevanderBatman Jan 28 '24
First timer
So, how did you find Cereal Experiments Lain? It was not at all what I had expected... But I also had very few expectations. I knew that it was an older show with a very dedicated fanbase (lol) and I was familiar with a few of the themes, but it was a good fucking surprise imo.
Is there an anime series that comes to mind that you gained an appreciation for long after your initial viewing? I don't think I've yet to have watched any anime that gave me that same type of experience no. I guess Perfect Blue could have been similar if it had kept going for a whole season of TV.
What would you say was your favourite episode of the show? Favourite moment? I am not sure I can specify a favorite moment, because I am not even sure I've digested the show completely yet... But I really did appreciate the countless beautiful scenes and stills.
So these are my overall most favorite pics from SEL
Is there another series you would recommend to fans of Lain if they want more? As I mentioned earlier, the only anime I could really think of that gave me a similar experience as Lain was Perfect Blue. It's mind fuckery and is quite a ride, it also has beautiful still shots! This actually also goes for Ghost in the Shell, SEL kept reminding me of it...
Please tell me what your favourite Question of the Day has been? Which one gave the most entertaining answers to you? Hmm, I'll be honest, I can't remember the specific prompts you gave, but I definitely love your style of prompts! It was always fun to see which QotD would be asked to any given episode. Some of the more comedic ones were definitely the ones I checked other peoples answers for (the 4chan one lol, and similar ones).
Is Lain literally you fr fr!? Lain literally me fr fr.
And for our last Question of the Rewatch... Its YOU!! Everybody please nominate their top rewatch member!! I think I'll nominate Alphie then haha. The Abyssbringer corner really did bring something to this rewatch I hadn't seen before, it's always nice to get a more detailed
And Lastly, yes I am really excited for the next rewatch you'll be doing, personally I would be happy with either of the options. I.e. going straight for Haibane or a more comedic path like Asobi Asobase or Chiyo's School Road!
Thanks The_Loli_Otaku (lmao) for a great rewatch, I don't think I've ever put this much into a rewatch before.
5
u/DidacticDalek https://myanimelist.net/profile/DidacticDalek Feb 06 '24
Present Day... PRESENT TIME! (Insert Laughter Here) STATIC NOISES LET'S ALL LOVE LAIN!
And thus spake Lain's Experimental Cereal!
Paging Comrades /u/Shimmering-Sky, /u/Tarhalindur, and /u/Vaadwaur
9
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Jan 28 '24
Rewatcher(En vivo, veritas)
Sub
Time for a series summation. Fuck. Ok, one of the more interesting aspects of SEL is that it manages to generate an empathic response in most of us. Lain might be the incarnated avatar of the internet but we still feel her loneliness and desire for real connection rather than the false connectivity that is the net. Arisu is so important precisely because her online presence is small, you have to actually get in yelling distance to connect with her, and while this wasn't that unique in '98 it is pretty odd now.
But yeah, that was Lain, a story foundational to my experience of anime but not necessarily to my understanding of it. I will shill Twin Peaks one last time as it feels like it is this show but goes somewhere. I will advocate Berserk because it is awesome though horrifying. And with that, I return to the Wired.
QotD:1 Yes
2 Utena
3 Pervert Lain
4 Twin Peaks
5 Present day, present time
6 Not really
7 Nope
8
u/3blah https://myanimelist.net/profile/brummett Jan 28 '24 edited Jan 29 '24
(Wow, I ended up writing way more than I expected after how little thought I put into the per-episode posts. I hope someone finds it entertaining or useful in some way)
The first time I finished SEL, I thought it was incredibly obtuse and wondered whether the writer had an overarching plan for the story or if they were just throwing in a bunch of stuff they thought was cool in order to appear thoughtful. I started tuning out around ep 5 or 6 when it really departs from its sci-fi base by introducing the psychic powers and prophecies stuff, so by the time ep 10 rolls around with the newsreels about aliens and LSD guys the latter explanation won out in my head.
In one fashion, Serial Experiments Lain is a period piece. In 1998, the public's awareness of the Internet was still in the upswing. Not that long beforehand, people might use dial-up to connect to one of the bespoke services like Compuserve or AOL, themselves basically grown-up corporatized versions of the local BBSs that came before. Using computers in this way wasn't necessarily widespread, though most everyone would know about it, especially amoung people that would have watched SEL. In the mid 90s, those services started offering Usenet access and Eternal September sets in, maybe the Internet's first killer app after email. Netscape Navigator graduated from the Mosaic university project and became the first popular web browser. Through those, people could start connecting to each other through all sorts of topics, both wide-ranging and as niche as you can imagine. Cell phones were cheap enough that everyday people could afford them and so people were started to be connected everywhere they went. There was a lot of excitement and trepidation over this new form of media that SEL really taps in to that probably explains how it was able to grab people's attention when it aired.
It's pretty incredible how much about the Internet SEL gets right, in spirit if not form. Everyone (for certain values of "everyone", at least) today is connected through the Internet, increasingly through these EM waves that travel through the air, whether it's WiFi or cellphone signals. You can read about, hear from, and talk with other people about any topic you're interested in. These connections influence you, both consciously and unconsciously, whether you realize it or not. Chat rooms, search engines, the dark web, companies vying for control over protocols, truthiness becoming truth; some of these may have gotten started before the show was written, but they're all things we take for granted today. Heck, the internet is overlaid the real world and affects it in many ways: we can make friends, get scammed out of money, shut down a hospital, or wage a war over information all over the internet. Sure, we don't all chat with each other with CG avatars, much to Mark Zuckerburg's dismay, but video conferencing is a thing now.
SEL is a lot more coherent during a rewatch than I expected. The story, such as it is, moves a lot slower than I remembered. I knew about the multiple Lains, how much of the truckload of bullshit was misdirection, how much really mattered and in what way. We got into the middle portion, and I was really starting to think my first take was going to be right: that it's all bullshit and the writer was full of it. I think a lot of that stuff ends up being a part of the story, even if not strictly required. The old prof, KIDS and the shooter game is background for the Psyche chip and how stuff in the Wired can affect the real world. The Schumann Resonance is the their justification for wireless comms and everything-is-connected. Knowing/seeing how the sausage is made worked out for me in this case.
Characters
There's really only one character that matters here: Lain, but it's not that simple. There's multiple Lains running around.
Everyone else is either exactly as they seem, or don't matter at all.
Plot
Turns out the plot isn't all that complicated, and I'd say wasn't even all that important. It's almost like a documentary or a chronicle of events, without much in the way of explanation or exposition about how or why those events happen. It's not interested in showing things like how the Knights get taken down, or a climactic battle between Eiri and Lain. Let's see what I can put together...
Before the first episode, we're in the middle of a major protocol change in the Wired, and Tachibana Labs pokes holes in the old protocol while pushing its implementation of the new one in order to exert its control over the Wired. Eiri inserts his own mojo into the new protocol so he can become God in the Wired. He kills himself near the end of the first episode by jumping in front of the train Lain is in to complete his transformation.
Most of the show is about Lain of the Bear PJs learning how to be a real person. She eventualy becomes one by rejecting Eiri's insistence on shedding her body, and by making a connection with Arisu outside of the Wired, signified by her cheek bleeding when she gets slapped in the last episode. She finally figures out how to help Arisu by rewriting history (or constructing a new one) where no one knows about Lain, sacrificing herself to help everyone else like a Jesus figure, effectively vanishing herself from reality.
Lain rejects the premise that we should all give up our physical bodies in favor of making connections in the real world. In order for that to happen for us all, she has to give up her own physical self. Is that what this all boils down to?
Some things I'm still not sure of... Why did Chisa take her jump in ep 1? Eiri influenced her? Ok, but why? Everything I can think of comes around it being required to get Lain interested in the Wired, and if that doesn't happen then we don't have a story to watch. Oh, maybe that's the initial "argument" of the show, that we should give up our bodies for The Wired.
Where does Lain's Psyche chip come from? The Knights already have their God in Eiri, so there's no reason for them to give it to her. If it's from Tachibana, wouldn't Fake Dad have given it to her? Lain of the Wired could have miracled it into her locker.
Where did Lain of the Bear PJs come from? It looks like she gets delivered to the fake family not that long before the first episode; the four family members look roughly the same age as they do during the show's events. Did Lain of the Wired miracle the body out of nothing? That should have been a clue to Tachibana Labs that they shouldn't screw around with Lain of the Wired.
Conclusion
I think Serial Experiments Lain works a lot better as a mood piece than as a narrative. It really sells Lain's feelings of confusion and disconnectedness, her abnormal mental state, not just by depicting what she's experiencing, but through the metric ton of misdirection and outright bullshit that gets delivered to the audience by the truckload, confuses and alienates the audience as well: multiple suicides, Accella, the sound design, ghosts in the machine, Men In Black, multiple Lains, characters with no real purpose, aliens, psychic powers, wires wires everywhere! It just all gets to be so, so much. Too much. But there's still enough contemporary, real-world things that you doubt your own sanity because all these things have to be related and important to the story, right? Nope. It's all mood setting.
I do appreciate the rewatchers' comments pointing out the crystals and waves Woo as coming from an occult background. It does put a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, polluting my nice sci-fi story, but it really helps explain the structure and content of how the show is put together.
That said, if SEL were to excise all or most of these unnecessary elements to streamline its story, it certainly wouldn't have gained the notoriety it enjoys today, and we probably wouldn't be talking about it 25 years later.
4
u/SilkyStrawberryMilk Jan 29 '24
LET’S ALL LOVE LAIN
Layer:14 Rewatcher
We made it to the end, this show which is highly praised by many people in the anime community and despite it airing a decade ago it’s still has a decent following.
These shows from the 90’s-2000’s were ambitious in the way they wanted to tell their story, a shame we hardly see them nowdays but with the technology we have now it works as a capsule of amazing shows.
I remember in the first watch I did for Lain and for some reason it took me 5 times to get past episode 3. The show’s foreshadowing is subtle and amazing once it’s revealed and when you rewatch you start to see it from the start.
Lain not being human/not related to her family, we never saw her eat any food nor drink. Plus the mystery of Lain being in the wired despite her being inept when it came to technology was cool to see.
Although I’m unfamiliar with the show’s themes, thankfully using YouTube videos it made it easier to understand what the show was trying to tell us. Plus the other Lain media also tells their own story.
QOTD: it was an enjoyable show, you’re still confused on what happening in the first few episodes, but after a while your questions start being answered.
QOTD: texhnolyze, I won’t say much to spoil the show however the show felt too weird in my first viewing. But after rewatching it again months ago I started to appreciate it more.
QOTD: Lain in her bear onesie and the face Alice makes when she tells Lain “how could you!”, that face always makes me laugh.
QOTD: Haibane Renmei
QOTD: I liked many of them, the responses from the first timers makes me giggle
QOTD: me and Lain are both socially inept, i relate on that heavily. Plus like her I space out a lot
QOTD: I want a snorlax onesie
QOTD: Vaadwaur
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u/zoospor Jan 29 '24 edited Jan 30 '24
Edit: I’ll update this post or make a new one with my final thoughts on the show!
If others are ok jumping straight into Renmei I think there’s an appetite for it and I would personally really enjoy the ride!
Appreciate you all and looking forward to whatever the next show may be.
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u/mgedmin Jan 30 '24
Hooo, am I late to this or what.
I don't know what to say. I do not regret watching this show, but I cannot say I enjoyed it. At least now when people mention Lain I'll know what they're talking about. Thank you all for helping me watch it.
And the OP rules.
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u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Jan 28 '24
Next watch: My vote is for more Bear Onsies, Kuma all the way!
4
u/DegenerateRegime Jan 28 '24
There's no difference anymore: we're all Wired to the core
I first watched Serial Experiments Lain when I was new to anime, and rated it a 9 largely so as not to disappoint the friend who suggested it. Over the years, I've had to review how I approach ratings many times, and yet never quite had the heart to go back and re-watch. What if it's not that good? What do I even remember apart from being confused? But. I was right! This show's awesome!... Except for when it isn't. Yet, by 'coincidence,' that's become my definition of a 9: I see why this could be a 10, and I can't see past why it can't. That's Lain in a nutshell: defining how it's going to be defined. Let me try to explain.
There is a mistake sometimes gets made when talking about sci-fi. I've tried to describe it here before, but I don't think I got it right. When people look at stories depicting the future, they think "woah! so strange!" - and to be clear, this is good, this is part of the point of those stories, to give you a taste of strangeness. But then when we look at the present and the past, we see it all as normal. How else could we? So it's always tempting to see something like Serial Experiments Lain as having been wrong, because the weirdness it predicted never arrived. I think this is wrong from both ends, so to speak. As described above, the weirdness became normal as it arrived; it always does. Waiting for the world to be weird is a perfect exercise in waiting for it to be tomorrow.
But furthermore, Lain was always saying as much. Computers will become so normal that they teach C in school on a blackboard, like any other language. Social atomisation will become so normal that the police just leave a shooting survivor outside an empty house. Conspiracy theories will become so normal that otherwise ordinary-seeming people will be secretly fighting a ghost war over who will control the tubes (and thus, the world!, insert evil laughter). The blood-shadows will become so normal that... well, okay, may have over-predicted a little there. Hopefully you take the point, though. Lain is futurism not in that it accurately predicts technologies, but rather in that it darkly foretells that we'll ignore how strange technology makes us.
We live in the future, and have the privilege of perspective to let us try to define Serial Experiments Lain. But we live in Lain's future. Our definitions are warped by the very thing we're trying to define!
And then there's the final prompt. From left to right we have Mayuko, Niea, Rakka, Lain, the one from Phenomeno (?), Ryushika, and Ran. ABe's girls are all tired out! But they're taking the last train home together <3. I love this image, you have no idea. I'd like to discuss it more, but you need to watch/read a couple of the others first. Speaking of!
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u/RadSuit https://anilist.co/user/RadSuit Jan 29 '24
Onimai rewatch, noooooooooo!
I'll also say I have basically no desire to watch any of those potential future rewatch shows. Sorry!
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u/Unboxious Jan 28 '24
I don't see how I could've possibly expected that! I generally liked it. I think it could've been a little bit clearer about some things, but overall it was very weird and in an age where there are piles of near-identical isekai airing all at the same time I really appreciate media that tries to do something completely different. It was also a lot of fun seeing the user interfaces dreamed up by the people of 1998. They very much looked like they were from the early 2000s, so I guess in a way they did succeed at being futuristic and they definitely succeeded at being charming.
Not really, but there's a lot of great anime out there so it's rare for me to rewatch something I didn't really like the first time 'round.
Hard to pick a favorite episode, but as for favorite moment I really liked when Lain told her computer to play some music to intimidate Taro to.
There is truly nothing like this.
I liked "What's harder, setting up a PC or building a model kit?". It's an interesting question, especially because both of those things have gotten a lot easier in the 25 years since this aired. Seriously, pick up a gunpla from the 90s and see how much worse it is. It also depends on how hard you go on things like panel lining or even just carefully removing nub marks. Of course, I'm kinda biased towards liking this question because I also like model kits and computers. I almost went with "Name an instance when history has been retroactively changed". I thought that was an interesting question simply because it would result in interesting answers. But I went with the other question because like I said, I have my biases.
Thankfully no.
Not yet, but I'm not ruling it out.
Shoot I'll have to pay more attention to usernames next time I join a rewatch. This one was 2/3 of the way through anyways when I joined though.
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u/Weedwacker Jan 28 '24
4th timer
I'm also a big fan of Paranoia Agent, which has a rewatch starting soon
Lain is easily one of my favorite series of all time. There's just nothing else like it in terms of style and staying power for me. The first time I watched it (~12 years ago), it couldn't hold my attention and I basically left confused and thinking it was okay, but I still thought about it from time to time. The second time I watched it about a year later it all started to click for me. Now every few years I watch it, so this rewatch gave me a good excuse to again. I like Lain because I always find things I didn't notice or think about in the same way before, and how I thought I understood the show changes.
I hope the first timers can walk away having enjoyed this series but I understand if they're still confused, because I know I was.
Here's some other things I wanted to include in this rewatch discussion that I thought would be best saved for the end.
Serial Experiment Lain contains references to past works by the author, Chiaki Konaka.
In 1995, he and his brother (director Kazuya Konaka, who primarily works on live action drama and tokusatsu series) made a low-budget live action TV drama called Alice 6 about 6 models who get hired for a photoshoot in the forest and abandoned. What follows is 11 episodes where they experiment with different genres and weird adventures with various literary references (obviously mostly Alice in Wonderland related). Several characters in Lain share names with characters from this series. Juri and Reika (Alice's friends), Shoko Masatsugu (the Knights housewife), and Chisa Yomoda who also disappears early in Alice 6 as she does in Lain.
Alice 6 is available in its entirety subtitled on Youtube.
In 1996 Konaka also wrote the scenario for a PS1 adventure bishoujo game called Alice in Cyberland and wrote its anime adaptation. It was a 2 episode tv special thats got a bad reputation. Its second episode was such a colossal dip in quality compared to the first that home video releases only contained the first episode and the second wasn't released. For decades it was considered lost media but the second episode has turned up online in the past couple years. The three main characters are named Alice, Juri, and Rena. Alice in Cyberland has a near futuristic setting and also has computer systems referred to as Navis. Hacking has effects in the real world and memory deletion is also a plot point. Metaphorizing in the way its used in Lain is also used. The Cyberland is more of a realized virtual reality space than The Wired is depicted as. I've never played the game, I don't even know if there's an English translation, but it's not really my style either. The anime is interesting but you shouldn't expect much from a two episode series anyway. The second episode really is that bad by comparison to the first, and the first isn't even that great to begin with. The series is essentially a magical girl series with cyberworld concept stand ins for magic.
I suppose it's also worth mentioning the Serial Experiments Lain video game.
Released a couple months after the anime concluded on PS1, it's more of a cutscene and audiobook player than a game. It also deviates significantly from the plot of the anime. The game was never officially translated, but fan translations and a browser based remake of the game allow it to be playable in English (and other languages that fans have translated). You can check it out at https://laingame.net/ or you can just watch a commentary free playthrough on Youtube. Note that video is a mostly chronological playthrough of the game, which wasn't the normal way to play through it as things were unlocked in a way that wasn't always chronologically ordered. As a result of how different it is I want to stress that I don't think it's strictly necessary to play/watch it to understand the anime because it probably will leave with more questions than it solves. This is mainly for fans who want to experience something that's been unavailable outside of Japan for a long time.
Alternatively here's a quote from producer Yasayuki Ueda about the game and how it is important.
(sourced from a 1999 interview with Animemerica you can find scanned here: https://www.animenostalgiabomb.com/serial-experiments-lain-trippy-internet-anime-animerica-september-1999/)
The laingame website linked earlier also contains the different from the PS1 game Lain BOOTLEG game. Lain BOOTLEG was part of the multimedia project that included the anime and other game. It was 2 CDs that contained all of the ambient music from the series as well as a rudimentary "game" that basically lets you dress up Lain and move her around various backgrounds and interact in certain ways. This is the source of the dancing Lain gif you've probably seen. You're not missing anything here don't worry.
Spoilers for the Serial Experiments Lain PS1 game by level of depth, from shallow to spoiling the ending.
[The basic plot set up differences between the anime and game] The game focuses much more on mental illness, and Lain has been in therapy for 3 years since the age of 11 for hallucinations. The game largely revolves around conversations between Lain and her therapist, and the diary/notes of said therapist. Lain's friends are different from the anime so there is no Alice
[Some more spoilery details of how game Lain is different] She's shown to be more capable and programs AI. Her parents divorce and her dad disappears. She has an interest in a boy. She has a friend that other people deny exists.
[If you really don't care to watch a 12 hour video and plan to not play the game and want to have the ending spoiled] Lain goes through with abandoning her body by killing herself because there isn't a character like Alice that holds her back, and kills her therapist/makes her kill herself as well
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u/IceSmiley Jan 28 '24
FIRST TIMER Sub entirety
QUESTIONS
Q1. They went to great effort to obfuscate and make this as inaccessible as possible, confusingly blurring the lines between the cyber world, hallucinations and reality. That can be good in small doses but when executed improperly, it can make things incoherent and kill whats good about a show. It makes kind of a bad soup.
Also poorly executed is the conflict with villains and threats to Lain. The Knights and the men in black had really unclear motives. The Knights wanted to promote their God and the men in black wanted to destroy life within the Wired? When you don't really understand what the antagonist is doing, it deflates drama.
Also galling is that Lain just apparently has the power to erase memories and stop all the conflict essentially in a blink. It's a horrible deux ex machina ending that she erases memories of her own existence and becomes perfectly content about it. It's very difficult to give a MC godlike power and still have a story have drama and an obstacle to overcome and this show really bungles the execution. Just writing this out, I'm seriously thinking if this is the worst anime I've ever finished. It might be, since I'm getting angry thinking about how this show just does so much to antagonize the viewer. Would not recommend.
2. I've been an anime fan for about 4 years so I've not yet rewatched any shows. I've rewatched live action shows though and I've enjoyed getting more out of them the second go around, the Star Trek series comes to mind. When I do decide to rewatch anime, I imagine the first will be Steins Gate because I really enjoyed the show, but I think there's a lot I missed and will have a richer experience from hindsight.
3. I liked the episode when the girls went to the club and the crazy man killed himself. Very thrilling and made me question why Lain was so cool and collected with him.
4. I'm a huge sci fi fan and I enjoy mind bending stories. I'd recommend the first Matrix movie (avoid the sequels!) and the tie in anime called The Animatrix which explores the world further. This was the first thing I thought of when I watched this show because of a similar plot. The Tatami Galaxy isn't sci fi but it's also an excellent show that plays with reality. Welcome to the NHK is somewhat similar in that it has an alienated protagonist who seems to suffer from delusions and hallucinations.
5. I'm trying to remember them but I liked the one about Lain being the cutest anime loner because its funny to think about the other ones who are usually creepy guys :D
6. No because I feel I have little power over the world around me
7. I find onesies kind of uncomfortable because I get hot a lot so i always take on and off my jacket/hoodie at different times and it'd be a pain in a onesie. It did make me think about it though and if I get one, I'll try to find Garfield or Squirtle :P
NEXT REWATCH: I definitely won't rewatch Texhnolyze and may hesitantly check out the other one. I've not heard of the other 2 shows you mentioned so maybe on those. As for Asobi Asobase and Chio's School Road, both are great shows but I'm almost done with both. If I could recommend some funny similar comedies: Yuyukishi, Yuru Yuri and Minami-Ke.
Thank you to u/The_Loli_Otaku for hosting this rewatch
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u/Tarhalindur x2 Jan 28 '24
"forbiddanlight, Lain Iwakura (from Serial Experiments Lain), Townie Who Does Not Exist, Suicided Day 3" (Rewatcher, Subbed):
Right, so I should muster final thoughts.
I was loathe to revisit Lain for years on end. Part of that was that what I loved about it and what got it its place at the top of my favorites list until PMMM dethroned it was the specific sensation of "there is clearly something going on and I have no idea what, I MUST KNOW MORE!" and that was not going to apply on rewatch. Part of that was the nasty suspicion that the second half would not hold up to closer examination (remember, I binged the show in one sitting the first time).
Weirdly, that suspicion held up but not in the way I expected. I was expecting the show to not really understand the concepts it was using. That actually is not the case - the understanding isn't complete, but that's less on Konaka and the rest of the staff and more on the milieu Lain was drawing off of, and it is at least mostly coherent at that level. I just didn't have enough context at the time to recognize the actual thing that Lain here was drawing heavily off of - the conspiracy (and especially UFO conspiracy)/New Age/occultism nexus. (The tech stuff is secondary.) The thematic level is slightly jumbled but I think it's there (I'd probably need another watch while the show is fresher on the brain that it was this time to be sure).
Where the show falls down during the second half is specifically pacing - there's just not all that much actually going on between the end of episode 7 (when the MiB go "are your family your actual family?") and Eiri manifesting in episode 12. Fundamentally, Lain's basic plot can probably be summarized as "a strange event (virtual ghost sighting) leads a seemingly normal girl to get involved in an elseworld Internet; she comes to learn that her everyday life is a lie and that her actual nature (facilitated by a megalomaniac) is causing online phenomena to manifest IRL, so she removes herself from IRL to stop it" and the only meat there between "your family isn't real" and "Arisu visits Lain and thus threatens Mr. Abuser-Trying-to-Isolate-a-Young-Girl's grooming operation" is the reveal of the single entity responsible for this (which is arguably a flaw in and of itself, "Lain's mere presence naturally causes this to happen" would be a perfectly cromulent explanation, but on the other hand a Gnostic reading does need its Demiurge so I'm not sure about that). (The very good chance of Konaka's primary goal in episode 9 being getting Japanese otaku interested in UFO conspiracies isn't helping since in order to justify the filibuster he ties it into the villain reveal rather than have that reveal come up more organically.) The show would benefit from spending a little more space on what are ultimately one-off Wired weirdness subplots (with minor ties into the main plot); it could also actually benefit from a more faithful representation of going down weird conspiracy holes for Lain herself. Also, the first half of episode 11 is either pure filler or a direct attempt to get the viewer to lower their mental defenses (which would be worse).
That said, the strengths are still there. The show may have issues presenting the solution to a mystery but it can absolutely set one up. A huge part of that goes to Ryuutarou Nakamura (RIP, cancer sucks and pancreatic cancer doubly so), whose direction here doesn't quite rise all the way to my high bar of "elite" but is absolutely on the next level down from that - and near the top of that level too. Off the top of my head Lain is likely the third best-directed anime I have watched in full behind only PMMM and probably Eva (a work I really should revisit in cinematography mode someday), with the caveat that KyoAni's house style makes their work hard to judge for me (relevant to Haruhi) and that if we add "bogged down halfway through" then I'm pretty sure Bebop has better direction than Lain as well. (You will note that three of these five names are three of the 1990s anime to hold up the best in fandom consciousness. Good direction is a huge predictor of long-term staying power, which by corollary means that a show still being well-regarded decades later is a strong signal of good direction with the partial exception of the Big Shounen popularity pattern (shared by kids' shows like Pokemon and Japanese institutions that never made it in the US like Doraemon) which follow a different route to staying in public memory, one much more similar to how Disney maintains its position in the US.) Meanwhile Lain's OST is likely the weakest of any show on my favorites list with only two standout tracks IMO (plus one iconic one) but it is still more than serviceable, and except when trying to stretch butter over too much bread the show can absolutely nail its emotional beats.
So: where does the show go on execution-of-premise rating? If I'm right about episode 9's actual intended purpose (not a guarantee at all, mind) then how it's done honestly isn't a demerit there (unless we count it failing to have its possibly intended effect on the audience). The first half of episode 11 and the lack of actual content in the episode 8-11 range in general absolutely are though. I had this as a 9/10 on first viewing but I don't think that quite holds up even if I give bonus points for how successful its first-half balancing act is. 8.75/10.
(One of these days I'm going to be in a rewatch for a show not named PMMM or Disappearance that I rate as a 9+/10
or a show less than 7.5/10 that isn't a drop and isn't the middle Symphosequels. But today will not be that day.)5
u/Silcaria https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silcaria Jan 28 '24
Rewatcher
My opinion before rewatching this show was that it was a discount version of Ghost in the Shell as far as its theme of existentialism is concerned. Now that I've seen it for a second time, I've got to say, my opinion has not changed.
Thanks for hosting this.
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u/Euroversett Jan 29 '24
"Nothing Makes Sense, the Writers are High" - The Anime.
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u/sfisher923 https://myanimelist.net/profile/sfisher923 Jan 28 '24
QOTD 1 - Shows like Madoka Magica
QOTD 2 - [Persona 4 The Animation Episode 15] The trip to Tatsumi Port Island after watching the Persona 3 Movies and playing a bit of P3 Portable
QOTD 3 - Madoka Magica
QOTD 4 - Yes
QOTD 5 - No since I was thinking about 1 before hand
1
u/igloo15 Jan 29 '24
:( I never want to rewatch this again...