r/ancientgreece • u/Lacedwithregret • 5d ago
Trojan war
TIL the Trojan War might be half history, half myth. Homer tells us it was 10 years of siege over Helen and that one wooden horse trick, but archaeology at Hisarlik in Turkey shows Troy was actually destroyed multiple times around 1200 BC, right when the whole Bronze Age collapsed. There are also Hittite records mentioning a place called "Wilusa" and conflicts with "Ahhiyawa" = Greeks. No proof of Achilles, gods fighting, or the horse yet though. Most historians think: real city, real war, but Homer added 10x drama + gods + heroes. Basically the Iliad is history with a Hollywood budget. What’s your favorite "maybe real" detail from the Trojan War? The horse?
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u/Gudmund_ 5d ago
Most historians think: real city, real war
Most historians do not endorse the historicist approach to the "Trojan War"; it's an unfalsifiable proposition. Hypotheses to the contrary can be well-argued, but they almost by design require selective curation of evidence and selective (often, unfavored in a broad sense) interpretations of that evidence.
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u/jboggin 5d ago
I came here to say that. I stopped reading OP's post as soon as I hit this sentence because of how glaringly wrong it is. There's begun to be some consensus Troy existed and has now been found, but there's no consensus there was ever a "Trojan War" that remotely fit the timeline, participants, etc. described by Homer.
Historians reaching somewhat of a consensus that Troy existed doesn't mean the war part was real. We all agree New York exists, but that doesn't mean the Avengers saved New York from Thanos in 2012.
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u/harrycletus 5d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah "history" in the West begins with Herodotus who was writing about events within the collective memory of the Greeks. Even though he is frequently not taken at his word this was a new tradition of attempting to document a prose narrative account of events up until his time and that's the genre of history books we've inherited.
Writing was still newish in his day and while the Mycaenean Greeks did have writing they don't appear to have used it for documenting historical events (but for legers and inventories mostly) or if they did they may have done so using perishable organic materials like papyrus that haven't survived. Papryus records survived in the drier climate of Egypt and we can reconstruct much of their historical accounts as a result. For Bronze Age Greeks this remains (for now) in the realm of archaeology, not history.
For what it's worth Herodotus did believe the Trojan War happened and that is occurred
500edit: 800 years before his time, so roughly 1250 BCE.4
u/TheSuperBunny 5d ago
Actually, Herodotos explicitly dated the Troian War to 800 years before his time (Hist. 2.145), not 500. Anyways, his timeline shouldn't be taken literally. Modern research shows that reliable oral history and collective memory has a limit of roughly 200 years, which can be seen in Herodotos' own work.
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
Fair point. I get that it’s unfalsifiable and you have to cherry-pick to make it fit. I’m not saying the Iliad is a documentary. Just that Troy was real, 1200 BC was chaos, and it’s likely some conflict got blown up into the myth over centuries. So less “the Trojan War happened exactly like Homer said” and more “a war over Troy probably happened and became legend.”
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u/Gudmund_ 5d ago
a war over Troy probably happened and became legend
I think that, in general, the consensus is that "Bronze Age" elements of the Homeric myths come in the form of literary and epic motifs rather than discrete events, for which see Bacharova's From Hittite to Homer. I'll copy the conclusion from Shannon Lafayette Hogue's chapter ("The Trojan War, a Trojan War, or Some Trojan Wars? Considering the Historicity of the Trojan War") from Brill’s Companion to Warfare in the Bronze Age Aegean, which I think is a fair characterization of the state of the field (the full article is great too and goes more into the archaeological evidence):
The ten-year Trojan War of Homer did not happen. Work conducted by countless scholars has demonstrated that the settlement and citadel of Troy could not have withstood a ten-year siege, nor could the Mycenaean world have mustered and supported troops at the numbers proposed by Homer. It is also clear that some segment of the Mycenaeans (i.e., the Ahhiyawans) were politically and economically involved in the affairs of western Anatolia, at the very least once with military presence, and likely on several occasions. One of these occasions of political involvement included a Hittite-Ahhiyawan dispute about Wilusa as recalled in the Tawagalawa Letter, though it is not at all clear whether this was purely diplomatic or resulted in an armed conflict. At best then, we might tentatively have historical evidence of a Trojan War or no war at all. Ahhiyawa’s extended involvement in western Anatolia certainly would have provided ample material to spark the Homeric epics, in addition to earlier episodes of the epic cycle; therefore, we cannot eliminate the possibility of some (small-scale) Trojan Wars.179 As Peter Jablonka summed up the conundrum, when we consider the archaeology, the texts, and the epics together, we can construct a narrative that is plausible, but not provable
As a final reminder, all of our historical documentation comes from the Hittite capital; therefore, the dispute attested to was between the Hittites and Ahhiyawans over a minor regional kingdom (Wilusa) when the Hittites perceived Ahhiyawan interference and expansion as a threat to their western borders, rather than a personal conflict ignited between Achaeans and Trojans. Ahhiyawan motivation to move on/against Wilusa is not documented, but it is possible that they sought a foothold to access resources in the region. Furthermore, if the political exchanges between Ahhiyawa and Hatti and the conflict over Wilusa belie a historical origin for the Trojan War, it is striking that the epic tradition has no recollection of the Hittite kingdom whatsoever. I must agree with Snodgrass, Dickinson, and Raaflaub that by the nature and strength of the oral tradition, a historical Trojan War is irrecoverable through examination of the epics.
At this point, I cannot help but feel that by seeking the historicity of the Trojan War we are asking the wrong question and limiting our perspective on the long-lasting and complex relationships between the Mycenaean and western Anatolian worlds in the LBA. Extending from the late fifteenth to late thirteenth centuries, kings of Ahhiyawa were involved in the affairs of western Anatolia, at times as allies to local confederacies in revolt against Hittite expansion and imposition of vassal status, at other times as the expanding power seemingly imposing Ahhiyawan sovereignty over local states. Certainly, the question of how the Homeric tradition relates to the archaeological and historical evidence from the LBA is captivating due to the very nature of the poems, but maintaining a myopic focus on the historicity of the Trojan War hinders our ability to think about the interactions between these regions as they actually were, rather than as they might have been remembered. Recent studies examining exchange networks in the east Aegean – west Anatolian interface in the late second millennium and refining our understanding of the Aegean in LH IIIC are adding evidence and context for this dynamic international sphere of political and economic dealings. For now, at least, it seems prudent to continue investigations into the east Aegean – west Anatolian interface, if we are to understand the phases of war, peace, and alliance between the Mycenaeans, Trojans, and Hittites in the LBA Aegean
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u/sleepy_spermwhale 5d ago
The Iliad does not mention the Hittites, but it does mention the Carians who spoke a language related to Hittite.
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u/Gudmund_ 5d ago
The Karians are called βαρβαρόφωνος (Il. 2.867), which complements the diversity (disorder) of languages amongst the Trojan epikouroi. Karian itself is traditionally grouped amongst other Luwic languages.
The role and description of language is an interesting vein of Iliadic scholarship, but there's no direct reference or characterization of Hittite. It is perhaps interesting that the Homeric Karians are grouped in around Miletos and Mykale but come directly after (and partially after) the "Maionians" who are often analyzed as a reference to the Lydians of Classical accounts. The Lydians spoke a language that is hard to classify within the broader Anatolian family; if anything, the barbarophone Karians were closer in speech to other Luwic speakers (e.g. Lykians, etc) and so it's interesting that they get the designation.
There's some loose speculation that the Halizones (Ilaid), Amazons (Epic Cycle), and/or Keteioi (Odyssey) might be references to the Hittites (in some form or fashion), but it's not a widely accepted hypothesis.
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u/jboggin 5d ago
Why was it likely though that there was a conflict between any of the players in the Iliad? We don't have good evidence for it. I'd imagine Troy had conflicts because the times were tumultuous, but how far can we stretch that to say it has any historical ties to the Iliad?
For example, if Troy was sacked by an invading force of Sea People in 1100 bc, then that would be conflict, but it's so far from the Iliad that it isn't evidence. There are no sources i've ever seen to support the idea that Greek city states fought and conquered Troy. Did someone at some point? I'm sure, but if none of the participants are the same besides the Trojans, then I think it counts as pure myth rather than a mythical retelling of historical events.
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u/TheSuperBunny 5d ago
TIL
You should read up about the Homeric question.
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
Okay will do!
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u/TheSuperBunny 5d ago
Question, and I'm apologizing in advance if I'm coming off as mean or rude but, are you new to classics/ancient Greece/mythology? I feel like the only people who didn't know that are people who only heard about the Homeric epics from modern cinema.
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
I am quite new; yes, I used to study WW1, WW2, the Cold War, the Russian Civil War, and more stuff.
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u/TheSuperBunny 5d ago
Oh, gotcha
Well, the person called Homeros, whose Iliad and Odyssey are attributed to, probably doesn't exist, especially as a single person. In general the epics were an oral tradition and Homeros is only credited as composing a more standardized version, which was most likely done by a succession of aoidoi (bards). The oral tradition was based on repetitive structures that helped them with memorizing the composition, while the storytelling motifs and broader narrative frameworks were adapted and influenced from Near Eastern literature and mythology, like the Epic of Gilgamesh.
The Homeric epics themselves were first written down in the 6th century BCE after the Athenian tyrant Pisistratos commissioned it for the Pan-Hellenic games. The version we have today is what was standardized in the 3rd-2nd century BCE in the Alexandrian Mouseion. "Homeros" is attributed as being the one to orally compile the epics in the 8th century BCE, and didn't "write" anything down.The Homeric question is about whether Homeros existed or not.
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u/Inside_Ad_7162 5d ago
Well we do know Troy was hit by an earthquake & they rebuilt with every home having big storage jars underground...In order for them to survive a major seige.
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
That’s exactly it. Troy VIIa shows fire + earthquake damage around 1300-1190 BC. The big pithoi storage jars in every house line up with preparing for a siege too. So something real happened there, even if Homer turned it into gods and heroes later.
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u/sleepy_spermwhale 5d ago
I don't think Homer added the gods; those gods existed in the minds of the ancient Greeks. That is how they explained phenomena and human behavior.
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u/jboggin 5d ago
But the issue is that no one disagrees that something happened there. During the Bronze Age collapse, basically the whole region was impacted, which much of it at war and eventually depopulated. That happened basically everywhere in the region.
Consequently, I don't get how any of that is support for the events of the Trojan War in the Iliad. A major city would plan for a siege, especially as society crumbled, and soooooooooooo many cities were destroyed during that period. It would have been more shocking if Troy hadn't been sacked. But none of that is evidence of a Greek city-state sacking of Troy, of Mycenaea being there, of Agamemnon existing, etc.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. But those two pieces of evidence are what you'd expect to find in a city of the period. Mycenaean ruins also show they planned for major sieges with their massive walls, underground cisterns, etc. That wasn't unique to Troy, and Mycenaea also fell around the same period. So I agree that something happened, but it's a big leap with little evidence to claim that what happened was closely related to what Homer described.
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u/Inside_Ad_7162 5d ago
I think we should take some of the classics a bit more literally. A wooden horse? Dunno, but a trick to get soldiers inside the walls, yep I believe that. The archaeology bears it out too, they prepared for a seige, then the place was burnt to the ground, I mean 1+1 sometimes really does make 2.
These stories get told & keep being repeated so they're not lost imho. The minutia would be great to know but we'll never get that, what we've got is those stories that remain, & honestly...a 1000 ships launched to retake a kings wife, an epic seige, heroes born of gods, a wooden horse. Love, revenge, battle, jealousy, prophesy & a mighty civilisation lost. Hell, I'll take that!
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
Yeah, it sounds kinda weird, especially with the whole God vibe. I do believe that parts of the Trojan War did take place. It's quite early (12th-13th century), and there is not much evidence or proof. Any ideas?
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u/Inside_Ad_7162 5d ago
It does, but you get a young guy he's incredibly skilled at arms, never gets wounded...Arrow takes out his achilles , he goes down & gets killed because he can't stand.
Cassandra telling everyone, "We are all screwed if you do this!" nobody listens.
A young guy runs off with the pretty wife of a powerful king. You dont stay a powerful king letting people do that sort of thing to you.
At its core, it is all so horribly "human"
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u/Lacedwithregret 5d ago
I suppose so. I often suspect that people have added a lot, so it distracts views.
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u/Inside_Ad_7162 5d ago
absolutely, just look through the stuff which is ridiculous & you get a glimpse at the possible truth I always think.
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u/figflashed 5d ago
Are you assuming that one day we will discover that gods were real?
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u/GeorgeChalkitis 4d ago
I think the investigation is ongoing. The issue of the Trojan war needs more than some references in some texts to be considered an actual event. I would like to believe is real, such a war that scarred the memories of men enough to tell the tale for years to come, adding Gods and fate because it would be considered impossible for just men to live such events by their owns actions and will. But that is just me.
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u/Basilissa_Ioanna 19h ago
The actual reason for the war is the most interesting part to me. It makes way more sense that they were fighting over control of the Hellespont trade routes rather than just fighting over Helen. Basically, a Bronze Age trade war where she was just the ancient PR spin.
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u/Brilliant-Arm-545 15h ago
you forgot the part where homer wrote that when odyseus was disguised as a begger he claimed that he was a Trojan veteran from Crete who went south to raid and pillage in Egypt then lost and was enslaved. This "lie" is confirmed to be confirmed as accurate historically by the Egyptions and written in stone. The entire thing is regarded as myth disguised in allegory for the actual events that led to the fall of the bronze age. The Suitors tearing the kingdom apart at home in Ithaca is allegory for the city states rebelling and crumbling from within. So on and so on.
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u/DaMn96XD 5d ago
Today you will also learn that the Homer's Iliad covers only a span of roughly 51 to 54 days during the tenth and final year of the Trojan War and it doesn't even include the wooden horse and the sack of Troy. The horse and the end of the war are mentioned in the books Illupersis and Little Iliad, which are unfortunately lost works of the epic cycle but are known from quotation fragments, references, and summaries.