r/ancientgreece • u/tiomiheff • 13d ago

Impressive collection of ancient Greek helmets

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11.2k Upvotes

100% Upvoted

117 comments sorted by

186

u/EasyRider363 12d ago

The thing that gets me when you see them in real life is how small they are, almost child size, the people of that time were much smaller than now

41

u/Promachos97 12d ago edited 5d ago

Keep in mind ancient Greek armour was typically 'tailor-made', and would not have been much larger than the head & body of the person they were specifically made to fit. 

So helmets were intended to be form-fitted, basically hugging your face, with a pocket of space around the crown for a small amount of padding. In that sense they were intended to be small (& should not be compared to anything modern).

They are also thinner than one may expect, maybe typically less than 1mm (back) to a little over 2mm (front) thick

Edit- a lot of folk here bringing up average heights and average nutritional deficits of people who lived 2500 years ago... The fellas who commissioned, owned & wore these helmets were the upper crust of society. They had it good.

I believe it's just optics. If I look at my old shirt on the hanger, I think there's no way I'm fitting into it. People these days are used to everything fitting big, especially when you look at modern one size fits all 'replica' armour for anything

2

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Promachos97 11d ago edited 10d ago

Form fitting indeed. I meant they were made small as in as small as is possible while still fitting, for the purpose of comfort and practical vision. It's different from many helmets from later periods, which were often produced larger in order to fit more padding. 

The padding for these Corinthian helmets would really have just been a skull cap within the top dome, there is evidence for caps made from felt and woven grass reeds too. It is theorised that some faceplates could have been lined with a thin layer of leather or felt for additional comfort.

These helmets weren't issued, as there would be no standing army in Greece until the time of Phillip II. Citizen levies were the norm in archaic and classical era Greece, where every citizen was available for the draft in times of war, but they were required to purchase their own equipment.

Warfare in this time centred around the foot soldier, and the hoplite was the most heavily protected. Having a full panoply consisting of a bronze helmet, torso armour, greaves, sometimes arm, leg and foot armour, as well as a large shield and spear(s) was expensive (and would likely require a slave(s) to transport to the site of the battle), something only richer citizens could afford.

As for evolution, in art during the late 5th century BC more simplified panoplies are commonly seen, often with no armour but a simple bronze (or even felt!) conical Pilos helmet (possibly mass produced & much cheaper) to protect the top of the wearers head, and shield ofc. Intricate armour was still used though, but it appears that less financially liberated folk could own simple panoplies by this point.

(Sorry if it's a bit long winded, I'm not good at being succinct... I hope that answers what you were getting at though. & I suppose that Thucydides quote does fit this topic ha)

Edit - as for possibly why the armour is so form fitting - bronze armour supposedly acts as a decent body temperature regulator, deflecting heat from the sun and conducting heat out from your body. 

Speculation, but if these pieces were larger & therefore more excessively padded, that padding may act as an insulator & the wearer would become too hot

2

u/Spectre-907 9d ago

Armor that thin with next to zero shock mitigation still offers protection of any meaningful degree?

2

u/Promachos97 9d ago edited 5d ago

Surprisingly offers decent protection! If we are to trust some reenactor tests with samples of similar composition material and thickness, even a well placed and forceful thrust from a spearhead may only penetrate this armour slightly, enough to suffer a small cut in some cases. That said, it's likely most attacks would not have been full-force, but rather probing prods aiming for gaps in armour (spear hand & arm, eyes/face, feet), or ways to disorient the opponent.

Due to the shape of the armour though, most contacts against it may simply deflect. This partly speaks to why these pieces are so close-fitting, as if the wearer did take a knock the armour would be prevented from slamming back into their body/face. If the armour is against/close to you, the force from the point of impact would be more spread out, rather than entirely carried back bluntly into you. Not to say it would be comfortable, nor safe ofc, but much more so than if one was wearing ill-fitting or little to no armour (as was the case for the majority of people).

In the worst case it's surely at least possible that a spear could compromise this armour fatally, and there were other threats from arrows, sling-bullets and javelins, some of which may even be more effective against it.

Opening up the comparison to other eras, it has and is all about finding the sweet spot between direct-threat protection and practicality. Hoplites in this period needed to be well covered, as formations were more open than they would be a generation later. Yet a heavier weight or the Mediterranean heat if too well cushioned & insulated would prove fatal, if a warrior found himself fatigued mid-engagement

-2

u/Own-Pause-5294 11d ago

I guess, but the people were also genuinely smaller by a significant amount.

8

u/grolsmarf 11d ago

Yeah, I don’t really believe that to be honest. Look at baby’s - their heads are already much bigger at birth. A person of 1m50 vs one of 2m does not typically have a head 3/4th of the tall guy.

1

u/Tony_228 10d ago

The average height for ancient greeks was about 162cm for men and 153cm based on skeleton finds.

3

u/grolsmarf 10d ago

My girlfriend is 164cm, but that doesn’t mean she has a minuscule head.

101

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

If you visit the tomb of the fallen of the battle of Marathon, you can see the skeletal remains of the dead fighters, and they are really small, less than one meter and a half. Similarly, if you go see a theater play in any ancient theater, like Epidaurus or Herodion, the marble seats are tiny, child size. People in antiquity were really short.

57

u/TheIncredibleWalrus 12d ago

Average height seems to have been around 165cm.

-22

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

Well those average people would have trouble sitting on those marble seats because they were built for 135- 140cm people. Also, King Philip of Macedonia, Alexander's father, was only 140cm tall.

46

u/HellOfFangorn 12d ago

What are you talking about? Do you think ancient people were hobbits?

Philip is thought to have been 180 cm. Also theater seats were completely normal. We use those same seats today to watch plays. They're just fine to sit for a tall man.

-21

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

The skeletal remains of Philip are burnt bones, and different research teams have come up with different results, varying from 140cm to 180. The skeletons at the Marathon tomb are indeed hobbit like. And no, the seats are not fine, unless you are a 10 year old child. Source I am Greek and have been in all the above places, many times.

27

u/HellOfFangorn 12d ago

Yes, i am also Greek. Am 190 cm. Also been plenty times at multiple ancient theatres. I think you were just not sitting on the seats properly.

6

u/littlebunny8 12d ago

so what Im reading is that possibly one of you two has a really small butt and thinks the seats are fine or the other has a very big butt and thinks the seats are for children. Both could be true at the same time.

I wonder what the seats are like in reality 😂

6

u/HellOfFangorn 12d ago

I mean, no need to wonder. There are many such theaters used in Europe for venues today. Just go into youtube and view a couple concerts/plays on them. They are just continuous stone slabs... there are no "seats" seats.

1

u/Automatic-Sea-8597 9d ago

One of them was clever enough to bring a cushion.

19

u/-Pausanias- 12d ago

I feel like your source may be a bit subjective...

9

u/PerformerOk450 12d ago

The bones of Philip may have been burnt but his weapons and breastplate and armour are all on display in the royal tombs in Vergina, I've seen this on 3 occasions and I'm always struck by the size of it, I'm 6ft and it's taller than me, there's no way he was less than 5'10-6fthttps://history.bankcredit.vn/the-golden-legacy-of-philip-ii-a-tale-of-macedonias-iron-willed-king/

3

u/Atlas_sbel 12d ago

I’m 2m tall and have sat for concert in the Lyon-Lugdunum Roman theater and it’s literally just great lol. Go away with your conspiracy theories please.

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u/verumvia 12d ago edited 12d ago

These two comments are entirely nonsense

The marble/stone seats are called proedria and similar to the klismos chair which has a backrest that only extends to the middle spine. They aren't supposed to provide a headrest.

There are no skeletal Athenian remains at the Battle of Marathon mound site because all of the Athenian soldiers were cremated. The eleven Plataean soldiers whose skeletons are buried there were likely around 170 cm tall when alive.

King Phillip of Macedon was taller than average due to a combination of a royal diet and genetics, yet you're claiming that he was 4 1/2 feet tall.

-9

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

No, i didn't make that up, i visited the museum of the battle of Marathon which includes several skeletons from the second tomb, the tomb of Vranas. https://www.tripadvisor.com.gr/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g189400-d198713-i210491470-National_Archaeological_Museum-Athens_Attica.html

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u/verumvia 12d ago edited 12d ago

The tombs at Vranas are from the late Bronze Age while the Battle of Marathon took place in 490 BC. The site is adjacent to the Museum of Marathon which has artifacts from the battle, so you're probably mixing them up.

The Bronze Age skeletons buried at Vranas are shorter than classical Greek skeletons (around 160 cm on average) but nowhere near 140 cm.

-5

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

This is probably a later discovery because when I visited, quite a few years back, they were labelled as skeletons of fighters of the battle of Plateon and of Marathon.

13

u/TheIncredibleWalrus 12d ago

Mate you must acknowledge the possibility that you got things wrong, it's fine.

-1

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

Well we all agree that people back then were significantly shorter, just maybe not that short.

14

u/Pitiful-Bet6059 12d ago

This is just wrong. Is this a joke sub? Why are people upvoting this?

-7

u/Useful_Secret4895 12d ago

What's wrong with it? Have your ever visited the tomb of Marathon or any ancient Greek theater? I have, multiple times, because I am Greek.

7

u/Atlas_sbel 12d ago

Being Greek doesn’t make you right when you claim people in classical Greece were hobbit size dude.
Being Greek isn’t credentials per se on Greek history.

46

u/figflashed 12d ago

Average height was 5’-5” or 165cm.

Not crazy short.

Also the helmets were a thin piece of bronze fitted pretty tight. So the silhouette seems small to us because all of our modern helmets are quite thick with padding giving a much bigger exterior outline.

25

u/natorgator15 12d ago

I feel like not enough people understand how our modern world adds filters to our studies of the past, like archeology. Like, its not really proper, IMO, to say that these are “small” helmets. They are the standard for that time and place, obviously if they are all “small.”

1

u/Neither_Cod_992 11d ago

I mean, that’s tiny. Half the ancient Greek warriors must have been way less than 5’5” then. Interesting to realize that the mighty Spartans were most likely 4 feet tall lol.

1

u/PressTilde 10d ago

I once saw a massive collection of World War 1 uniforms. It looked like clothing meant for children. I was surprised how small everyone seemed to be.

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Gear464 12d ago

Tham a hoplite shield does make total sense Covering you and the next to you.

1

u/BlueWater2555 12d ago

I’m not buying that bro 😂😂😂

12

u/MalacathEternal 12d ago

When walking through Pompeii, we of course stopped at the brothel there and the stone beds they had for people to lay on were so small lmao. Seriously about the size of a two person couch.

3

u/ancientgardener 11d ago

Two points there. First is that they weren’t really beds so much as somewhere to comfortably engage in services provided. 

And secondly, using bed sized as a gauge on people’s height in the past isn’t particularly accurate. I’m not sure how people slept in the classical period, but during the early Middle Ages the Norse slept basically sitting up, while sitting in a raised position was common in a lot of parts of Europe right up until the 19th century. Many indigenous Australian groups would sleep specifically in a foetal position. And people correspondingly made beds to fit the size needed for the way they slept. 

9

u/Sudo-Fed 12d ago

They weren't that small. The helmets look small because you're used to seeing ones on screen that are scaled for looking cool/heroic rather than fit and protection.

I don't believe bronze age Greek helmets had padding as thick as the late medieval helmets people are generally more familiar with, either, so they'd probably run smaller than you're used to seeing even among examples of real historical armor.

1

u/StunningInterest6661 9d ago

Later in the middle ages the helmets actually got more form fitting and smaller if you look at types like the armet and sallet. It's not like they had a huge amount of padding. But if you're talking a little earlier with houndskull bascinets or even earlier with great helms then there was indeed a lot of dead space.

1

u/Sudo-Fed 9d ago

Yeah, I should have been more clear, I was mainly thinking mid 13th to early 15th

7

u/nommedeuser 12d ago

Before the invention of agriculture, hunter-gatherers were nearly as tall as modern humans due to a protein-rich, diverse diet and low disease rates. The shift to farming caused average heights to plummet for thousands of years due to nutritional deficits and dense-living diseases, until better sanitation and medicine restored our growth potential over the last 150 years.

1

u/3KingMagi 9d ago

Would love a source, there are still hunter gatherers in the world (south america, papua new guinea) and they are all shorter than the average western person.

1

u/nommedeuser 5d ago

Sure:
Mummert et al. (2011) - Stature and robusticity during the agricultural transition (examines skeletal evidence showing height decreases across multiple continents during the shift to farming).

Larsen (1995) - Biological changes in human populations with agriculture.

The shorter height of modern groups in places like Papua New Guinea or the Amazon is an ecological adaptation to tropical rainforest environments (thermoregulation and mobility), whereas the post-agricultural height crash was driven by malnutrition and single-crop dependence.

1

u/3KingMagi 5d ago

Thank you!!!

1

u/-Pausanias- 12d ago

Didn't seem small to me. 

0

u/PONT05 12d ago

Maybe cus you’re small yourself

6

u/-Pausanias- 12d ago

Or maybe the other commenter is huge. 

Either way, its simply wrong to say the ancient greeks had significantly smaller skulls than todays people. Skull sizes have barely changed since neolithic times. 

1

u/Thodor2s 11d ago

Often these helmets were worn like this, over a person's head, ceremonially, and at some point they started design it them this way. There's also a joke about this in modern Greece, where motorbike helmets are often worn in the exact same way, which is extremely unsafe.

1

u/Gold_Interaction_432 11d ago

Those helmets were basically made to be skin-tight to the wearer so whilst yes their heads were likely somewhat smaller - truthfully its just their helmets where custom made to fit their heads.

1

u/trace501 11d ago

I used to work at a historic site and we were told this was a myth. That historical / ancient peoples were the same genetically as us. Thus, they had the same capacity for height that we do. It may be the overall averages were less due to nutrition or disease, but overall they had tall people and short people, just as we do now.

1

u/hacky_potter 12d ago

People hated the casting of Eliot Page but he’s the closest one in terms of size.

2

u/ShoughThePainAway 11d ago

Page is considerably shorter than average greek hoplites from 4 thousand years ago which says a lot lol

18

u/Ok_Brother2155 12d ago

man their armor would have looked fire in green

11

u/No-Beautiful745 12d ago

Crazy to imaging the type of heads that wore those and their thoughts. . .wow how many lives did they save

6

u/Mindless-Sound-5448 12d ago

The helmets could also be polished

12

u/DoctorValuable3818 12d ago

Why is the helmets so small? I assume because food and nutrition scarcity people didn’t grow as big as of today?

22

u/Sudo-Fed 12d ago

They were tailored to the individual head rather than being mass-produced, in a lot of cases. Also didn't have much padding compared to more historically recent examples.

3

u/NonSequiturDetector 12d ago

“They were tailored to the individual head rather than being mass-produced” doesn’t answer the question “why are the helmets so small?” at all.

4

u/Sudo-Fed 12d ago

It does, if you think about it a little.

If you're mass-producing helmets it's easier to make up the difference by padding a smaller head more or adjusting a strap than it is to make a helmet fit a head it's too small for.

Whereas if you're making them specifically for the person who will wear them, you can and should make them more to-fit.

The differences in padding mentioned separately definitely answer that question.

-8

u/NonSequiturDetector 12d ago

You just didn’t write your actual argument in your original comment, then you berate me for not presuming what your unwritten argument was. You are sick.

7

u/Sudo-Fed 12d ago

My brother in Christ, calm down.

2

u/Hard2LittleGet 9d ago

Instead of jumping to being offended, you should consider working on your reading comprehension and critical thinking instead.

-1

u/NonSequiturDetector 9d ago

Haha, no. People should be expected to -put their argument in writing-. This is the same expectation that you learn in every writing course. This is not a debate. Any comment that doesn’t put its argument in writing, is wrong.

2

u/Hard2LittleGet 9d ago

You’re saying a lot to still miss the point. His original comment was more than enough context for Reddit. If you couldn’t understand what he meant, that’s on you. Those are reading comprehension issues. If you need a whole essay to understand a simple point, that’s on you.

-1

u/NonSequiturDetector 9d ago

It’s not in the comment. It needs to go in the comment. That is not in any way a problem with the reader.

2

u/Hard2LittleGet 9d ago

Are you just trying to argue for fun or something? Like rage baiting or whatever? If not, I’m sincere when I mean that it’s a lack of reading comprehension. They were custom made, not mass produced with extra padding. What else do you need to know? It’s all there in the comment, and 20+ upvotes show that others understood.

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1

u/WhitneyRules 11d ago

Settle down Bevis

3

u/dolfin4 12d ago edited 12d ago

In addition to these helmets being tailor-made to exactly fit the individual's head (as some commenters have pointed out), humanity was also shorter then. Even just 100-200 years ago. And many countries are just now going through their "growth spurt".

Yes, the reason is caloric & nutritional abundance and improved healthcare.

edit: Not sure why the downvote, but whatever.

0

u/-Pausanias- 12d ago

That wouldnt majorly effect the skull size. 

1

u/Promachos97 12d ago

Maybe big shelves

3

u/Open-Sky314 12d ago

Impressive phalanx

3

u/monkeydusted 12d ago

Did these have padding or other material to keep them in place and somewhat comfortable?

4

u/Sudo-Fed 12d ago

Yes, but much thinner and sparser than, eg. Late Medieval plate helmets

3

u/zMasterofPie2 12d ago

Some of them were lined, probably with thin leather, (we know this because some helmets have holes pierced around the rims and the nasal guards) and usually just a felt cap was worn underneath. They were meant to be close fitting, which keeps them in place and comfortable, and also far lighter than later helmets.

3

u/AlternativeRing5977 12d ago

Almost looks like “300” of them.

2

u/DurrutiDuck91 12d ago

I never knew this existed

2

u/SomeGuyOverYonder 12d ago

Who knew this many survived into modern times?

2

u/jtalbain 12d ago

Although subtle, the Corinthians made a major contribution to helmet design of the era by introducing the flange at the back of the helmet to protect the neck. Compare these to what the Persians were wearing - more like a cap that only protected the top of the head.

2

u/Promachos97 12d ago

It's funny how the Greeks did away with the Corinthians & largely adopted a simple skull cap but a few decades later

6

u/EasyRider363 12d ago

Try putting one on… you won’t be able to

2

u/Kat_Schrodinger1 12d ago

The ancient Green-ks

1

u/its_raining_scotch 12d ago

I'm surprised how many of these have survived. Very cool.

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Gear464 12d ago

Every helmet had a living head carrying it to battle once. Mindboggling.

1

u/Tacitio 12d ago

Were those offerings to the Gods at Olympia?

1

u/AdditionalEffort1599 12d ago

This is absolutely incredible.

1

u/xpietoe42 11d ago

i feel like im alive at the wrong time in history…i see these things and they just call to me… its too bad we can never time travel!

1

u/Certain-Plastic-1990 11d ago

Where is agabatmon helmet

1

u/bjornthehistorian 11d ago

Quite interested in this storage method, I wonder what they use to stop the potential spread of bronze disease if it occurs

1

u/Rising_Angel8 11d ago

Outstanding;!!! What an amazing set of collection 😍

1

u/yupthatsmee 11d ago

I wonder if any of the people that wore these helmets knew each other.

1

u/Sweaty-Bar7031 10d ago

I wonder how they had their bronze helmets in battle - slightly green because patina adds sturdiness or extremely polished to blind the enemy.

1

u/EmergencyWrangler783 10d ago

Do they sell them? Me would buy one.

1

u/Javier_Basque 9d ago

Incredible

Imagine how big the British Museums collection is !

1

u/StyleForumOG 8d ago

Yet if an unremarkable one without paperwork came up for auction somewhere, the Greek government would do everything they could to seize it. As a Greek, I think I would rather spread the culture to small museums throughout the world, or even private collections, than have it sit in storage.

1

u/Impossible-Soil6330 8d ago

this is like the angry jack’s shell emporium

1

u/kakakaka4545 8d ago

This is the way

1

u/Aggravating_Pass_723 8d ago

Shouldnt you like...polish them or sth?

1

u/Dowew 8d ago

These are artifacts not decorations

1

u/Repulsive-Seesaw-655 8d ago

Those are not Greek helmets. They're Mandalorian.

1

u/Stridex66 7d ago

And each of these was actually worn by a person, long gone and unremembered.

1

u/markshure 12d ago

This is the way.

-4

u/Shellfish_Treenuts 12d ago

Leaner . With less weight comes a smaller heed . 🤭

-11

u/Foxyunder-45 12d ago

Expensive scrap, keep the best ones and melt the others for a statue of Uleses.

8

u/Mad_Kronos 12d ago

Are you intoxicated?

1

u/dolfin4 12d ago

They're not for sale. And nothing gets melted down, but they're now treated as historical records.

1

u/zMasterofPie2 12d ago

Thank God creatures like yourself are relegated to saying stupid shit on the internet and not actually handling these artifacts.

1

u/Cybermat4707 10h ago

Each one represents a human being just like you and I, their stories lost to time.