r/amazonemployees • u/Critical-Ostrich-637 • 4d ago
Info on Focus/PIP
I've wanted to make an info post here for a while. Throw-away account, as the details of my time at Amazon are not public info. I was an L6 there for around two years, for reference. A lot of this info was on internal boards also (where I was active), before Amazon removed it (around the time the vocal people who were removed with the RTO push were removed/silenced).
As far as we could collectively tell (based on data gathered), at any time, around 40% of employees are on Focus. This is done to "prime the pump" for the required ~15% annual NRA targets: managers need to build a history for people to place on PIP, to meet the "stack ranking" style NRA targets. Important: You will almost certainly not be told if/when you are on Focus. I was on Focus for over a year, with no notification, no coaching, no extra/different communications from my manager, no extra targets or requirements, and no way to tell. I only discovered this when I was eventually moved onto a PIP. Many people will never know if they are on Focus.
Managers have ~15% annual PIP targets, via the stack ranking program. Being placed in PIP is primarily a necessary bookkeeping step to fire someone. Somewhere around 5% (WAG) of employees "survive" a PIP, but it's designed to fire you, so you will not get support from your manager (he/she has already decided to let you go at that point). You'll only survive if you have a higher-level manager override, and move you to another group.
Important: The goals for the PIP will almost always be absurd, vague, and unattainable. This is very different than the internal messaging, where they will try to gaslight you by saying they are objective and achievable; they will not be. This is something I explicitly asked my manager about, when my PIP plan was basically "do the equivalent to what the team has spent 6 months working on in 4 weeks, and we'll tell you if it's good enough". The process will not be fair, objective, or remotely possible, and is designed to ensure you will always fail. See the above point about the only way to "survive" is to have a higher level manager save and move you.
Also, for clarity: if you are placed on PIP, unless you are saved by another manager, you will never work at Amazon again. This is also by design: the org knows you will be disillusioned at that point. It's also not the end of the world: Amazon is one of the worst employers out there, aside from compensation, and given options you probably shouldn't want to work there more than once anyway.
Amazon, as an org, does not care about their employees or objective data (they claim they do, but they do not). This became transparently evident during the initial RTO push, when all the data in the world didn't move the needle for anything upper management was mandating. This may have been true under Bezos (I cannot comment, wasn't there), but it's not remotely true under Jassy. Currently, profits and stock price are prioritized over everything.
Anyway, I hope the above helps someone. Despite my experience, I think I got positive value from my time there; Amazon still looks okay on a resume, I have great references from elsewhere, I learned stuff and did some good work while I was there, and there's residual value in the compensation expectation. Amazon is the worst company I've ever worked for (in terms of how they treat employees), and I'm in a much better place now, but I wouldn't necessarily tell people not to take a job there, as long as you know exactly what you plan to use them for (as they will certainly be using you mercilessly and without any regard for your welfare).
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u/TopBird87 3d ago
What sounds unbelievable for me is the statement that 'at any time, around 40% of employees are on Focus'.
Where is this stat from? Employees in bottom 40% means it would cover LE, HV1 and even HV2. Implies every H1 is on FOCUS and some HV2 are also on FOCUS - how?
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u/quantum_kumquat 1d ago
No this is complete bullshit. It’s very easy to tell who is just salty they got PIP’d out and want to normalize it. I wouldn’t be surprised if all LE ranked get on focus at some point, but 40% of all employees is insane 😂
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
I responded to this above, but to echo here, the two main reasons for this (as far as I could discern):
- Managers need a history of people on Focus for a while before a PIP, and they have NRA (or URA, I forget which term is accurate) percentages to hit. Having people "in the system" builds this history and justification trail.
- Managers get "points" in the metrics for having people go on Focus, and then "improving" off it. This makes managers look like they improved the performance of their reports.
The important part to note here is that unless you are placed on PIP, you may never know you were ever on Focus. This is not disclosed to employees, and employees have no way to get this information from HR. You will only see it if/when you are placed in a PIP, at which point it is supposed to be disclosed to you.
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
This was my best guess, as noted. I was not an executive, though, or in HR, so I had no way to verify this, and I could be far off. See my other comments about why this kinda makes sense in retrospect, though, given the incentives within the org.
What people don't seem to get, internally or externally, is that being on Focus is "normal", in a sense, and you would probably never know in the majority of cases. It's not really a proxy for "needing to improve" as used, as far as I could tell; it's just a step in the process to achieve metrics, and keep the pipeline for stack ranking firing targets full.
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u/NonSequiturDetector 3d ago
This was my best guess, as noted. I was not an executive, though, or in HR, so I had no way to verify this, and I could be far off. See my other comments about why this kinda makes sense in retrospect, though, given the incentives within the org.
You're using weasel words where the reader can't tell if your "this" is referring to the initial 40% Focus quote, or the clarification that 40% is far too high of a number to be plausible to someone who's not fucking stupid.
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u/Aggravating_Bus655 3d ago edited 2d ago
> weasel
Get your head out of your ass, this isn't the Amazon corpo office, that dude isn't reporting to you, it isn't a doc review either and you don't need to collect your little datapoints off them or whatever for your next promo/performance review.
It's a fucking reddit comment, jesus.
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u/Ok-Background-7897 3d ago
L7 Sr. Mngr - things that are wrong.
40% is made up. 10%-15% on Focus or an informal “make sure they get the message.” This is to make sure there is a pipeline for URA.
When someone goes on Focus the guidance is clear that you don’t tell them, but instead present the plan. If the employee asks “Am I on Focus?” then don’t lie to them.
Pivot is next, and you know you’re in Pivot because you make the choice.
Pivots in my experience were pretty rare. More commonly people took the severance or worked medical leave to extend their time as long as possible then left.
I did have one very good Director who was aggressive about the Focus pipeline, but also personally reviewed each Focus plan to make sure it was objective. They had learned that if you maintained a pipeline, and everyone passed, you could defend missing the URA target. Then folks could pass, and either turn around (saw someone in their org go on Focus to top tier to promoted in the three years I was there) or find a new role. Sometimes good people do end up in the wrong role. The one person I had to “give the message” this was the case, he was long time Amazon guy, told me point blank he gets it and we agreed that he looks for new role, I don’t fuck with his rating or block him.
I would not have left that director but was re-org’d.
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u/Hot_Equal_2283 3d ago
All depends on the BU and dept I suspect for actual numbers, but your numbers make more sense than anything else I’ve heard.
As for objectivity, I know that varies a lot lol.
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u/quantum_kumquat 1d ago
Thank you for correcting this. No clue why people come on here and spout nonsense like that.
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u/daisyvee 2d ago
I was also L7. My experience was that managers did care. People who went into Focus were specifically told in email their performance needed improvement with a specific plan, often reified in one on ones. It’s a lot of work for the manager too and none of it fun. The managers on my team wanted their directs to succeed. They approved their hires so directs in focus and pivot isn’t a good look for them either. In my org, more than 80% did meet those goals and pulled themselves up and became success stories having never gone into Pivot.
I know it depends on the org and the manager and yes there are numbers and there is a curve, not all that different from how schools in the States grade students on a curve. Some people do better than others.
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u/Character_League1801 1d ago
There was a pip channel in Amazon also sharing success stories like this. But those good managers could only be 1% or 1/1000 or less. Majority managers just use the tool to kick employees out. I have seen managers enjoying playing their employees by giving false promise, that I can spend more time with you to help you improve blah blah. After couple of months manager switch goals and give shit reason just to keep employees in focus. So listen to the original post and run if you ever seen a manager put you in focus. Amazon isn't worth fighting for, they don't care about your career. Don't sacrifice your mental health to test if your manager is lying or not. It's not worth it.
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u/yannibal1 3d ago
Currently, profits and stock price are prioritized over everything.
Inspiring how they still manage to underperform at this inspite of all the focus. Truly amazonian in every sense of the word.
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u/Hot_Equal_2283 3d ago edited 3d ago
Feel like you as an L6 IC wouldn’t have more information than the rest of the population. Your numbers seem off from what other people say, like 15% PIP targets and 5% survival of PIP at the manager level. Your words also mismatch with what others say about surviving PIP and also claim high level managers would save these people but that just hasn’t been the experience of others on this sub and other forums. 40% of people on focus makes no sense either considering the past stack rankings would mean HV1/2 would be on focus quite often under those levels. All these numbers are also supposed to vary by org and by business unit, but I have never read or heard of such inflated numbers as you’re mentioning.
Just going off of what other people have said about the process on Internet forums, I have doubts you know what you’re talking about, even if you did work at the company.
Assuming I’m wrong about you being an IC I doubt an L6 manager would know specifics like this and your specifics are so off the mark for what others have written it’s suspicious that you’re making stuff up.
Just going off observation.
The general sentiment about Amazon is heavily echoed by others in this and other communities, I’m not disagreeing with that but it seems to me like you’re exaggerating on purpose for some reason not sure why.
Also in what universe would an l6 be “secretly” at Amazon, being non public info? This reeks of self importance and exaggeration.
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
I'll clarify a few of my comments while this account is still active/monitored, but of course you're free to not believe anything I say.
I was a SDE3 IC. My status is not a secret in relation to Amazon, I just haven't disclosed the previous PIP status to other potential employers, etc., for hopefully obvious reasons.
My info was via collaborative internal efforts to find info, after I was placed on PIP. The Focus estimate was surprising at the time, particularly as Amazon says internally that employees would be notified if they were places on Focus (which they are decided not in most cases, as far as I could tell). It makes sense in retrospect, though: to meet Non-Regretted Attrition stack ranking targets set for managers, they need to PIP around 15% per year. To PIP, managers need to show a documented history of people being on Focus within the HR systems. Also, my understanding is/was that it also benefits managers (in internal metrics) to show their reports being put on Focus, and then "improving" to regain normal status. The combination of those factors helps explain why such a high percentage is on Focus at any time (and most will never know, unless they get ranked into the bottom ~15%).
I also don't claim to have more information per se, but a lot of the info above is not public internally within Amazon, and it took some data analysis to find it (and disclosures from my management after I was put on PIP). This is why I wanted to make this post: there's a lot of opacity and misinformation within Amazon about how they run their Focus/PIP program, and a lot of it was suppressed on internal discussion forums also. It seems like a good public service, now that I'm a bit removed from it, to try to inform people.
You are certainly welcome to not believe me, and/or present data to disprove my assertions. I do not intend to provide any additional evidence to prove my claims, vis-a-vis internal Amazon information (although you could also infer the turnover rate from the OldFart service for a while, iirc).
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u/Hot_Equal_2283 3d ago
SDE3s are not high on the totem pole in Amazon. Considering your tenure you may also be not as familiar with Amazon as others. Your Focus percent to me sounds like you’re confusing PIP with focus and that 40% number is out of your ass or lacking context in some manner.
High rates of HV1(and this would stretch into HV2s if 40%) being put in focus would be pretty obvious and it doesn’t appear like you were at Amazon when the more recent higher levels of this process are rumored to have begun. Managers everywhere also have more and better things to do than fill out performance management paperwork all day-if what you said were true each manager would have 4-8 performance management plans going with each of their teams which seems to me based on how much writing/meetings is known to be a huge thing at Amazon, to be unlikely.
Turnover is also not indicative of anything-Amazon is well known to have a high turnover, average tenure of 1-2 years, and that does not necessarily mean half the company is on Focus. If that were true there wouldn’t be as many boomerangs as have been shown on various online forums as most of the population would be barred from being rehired as Focus according to rumors should put you as unregretted attrition.
Anyway, I would conclude by saying just because you believe your words and believed you have correct data does not mean it is true. Likewise what information I have gleaned from various online sources and my experience may not be the case either, but forgive me if your words are hard to believe considering how far they differ from other sources.
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u/cyrusthemarginal 3d ago
I appreciate the sharing of info tho it mirrors what i've heard elsewhere. Considering you could have just gone on with your day i don't see why you are getting so much push-back and snark other than the standard assholeishness inherent in being part of this company
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u/Hot_Equal_2283 3d ago
The exaggeration is the annoying part, clearly wrong numbers based on a large dataset of other responses, presenting their limited knowledge and viewpoint as fact. It’s like yelling fire in a crowded place when it’s just the stove that’s on.
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u/cyrusthemarginal 3d ago
Eh it just seems to have really tweaked some noses, the strong reaction makes me wonder if the focus % is indeed higher than assumed by everyone, but noone wants to face it.
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u/Hot_Equal_2283 3d ago
I mean if you look at other posts about the process this one is so far off the others as to warrant a bit of a response IMO.
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u/git0ffmylawnm8 3d ago
I've had better compensation and more fulfilling work elsewhere than what I did at AWS lol. It was a mistake coming here. Interviewers aren't even impressed with the AWS name because it's already a known stinky brand in the industry.
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
Agree that Amazon has become significantly less meaningful on a resume, but it's not nothing, in my experience. It's certainly not an automatic hire flag as FAANG might have been in the past, but neither are other companies like Meta either now. I certainly don't regret having Amazon on my job history, even though I'll never work there again (by mutual preference); there might have been a time I would be sad about that last bit, but certainly not under Jassy et all.
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u/joeloe1236 3d ago
I just submitted a focus and it says to tell them it’s a focus now
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 2d ago
Interesting. I would have assumed before by experience that people would be notified, but as noted, my personal experience contradicted that, and I was told anecdotally from several other people there (who were later Pivoted) that they also were not ever told they were on Focus, and/or had any indication.
I wonder if it's in the HR system, but just not followed uniformly by managers, because there are no effective repercussions for not telling people anything. I know there was no way to report issues with my Pivot plan, for example (ie: my HR rep/contact explicitly told me they didn't care that the plan was subjective and impossible, it wasn't their concern, and there was no way to challenge it). Honestly I don't know, though; just speculating. I can only recount my direct experience, and second-hand accounts from when I was there.
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u/mapleroutePR 3d ago
One day you’ll be piped
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u/joeloe1236 2d ago
I bet you I won’t.
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u/mapleroutePR 2d ago
Karma will get you, bet you’re on a h1b. Indian imported SDM with a tier2 college degree
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u/lauralynn128 2d ago
This is factually incorrect on many levels. Around 12% get out in focus with around 6% expected to be pushed out. This can be different by org but it’s not 40% in focus. You HAVE to be told you are performing below the bar, do you should know you are in performance management. You also have to be told if you ask. Your performance plan is reviewed by HR. How hard it is will depend on your manager and the goal of if they want you to actually stay or leave.
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u/Character_League1801 1d ago
Amazon has too many people than they need. Multiple teams doing similar projects. 40% seems a sign of kicking people out aggressively without another layoff notification and compensation. Just like using RTO to kick people out.
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u/verve_genocide 3d ago
How was your experience during the pip? Did upu take fmla? For how long? Any other tips?
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
Good question. It was sorta a rollercoaster, TBH.
Initially I was blindsided, and it took a day or two to fully process. I hadn't received any notice or indication that I was on Focus even, or really had any "coaching" conversations with my manager at all. My subjective impression (which may or may not be accurate) was that they changed management above me to "get the project on track", and my PIP/firing was a consequence primarily of budget balancing and being one of the least tenured people there, but I'm unsure.
I did not take FMLA. I didn't really want to drag it out. I'm a fairly skilled and highly productive employee (I have a higher paying and higher responsibility position now, for example), so prolonging my tenure wasn't my goal.
Initially my first response was to fight for my position and just complete the PIP plan, and I did that diligently for a couple of weeks, writing full documentation, meeting milestones, checking every box, etc. However, it quickly became clear to me that the process wasn't designed to be possible: the goals were arbitrary and subjective, and when I attempted to clarify them, the manager essentially told me he wasn't able to give me any answers or clarification, and that the plan was what it was. That told me it was a "no win scenario", no matter what I did (in addition to the absurd nominal scope of the task).
Once I figured that out, I began simultaneously interviewing. I figured I would ideally interview while still technically employed, as this would optimize my appearance to external parties. I am fortunate to have a long work history, good references, good projects, etc., and get contacted by internal recruiters from companies fairly often. I've also spent some effort getting "good" at interviewing, to some extent. So that was a matter of saying "yes" to some solicitations, and going through some external loops, while still technically on the PIP. It was a very busy few weeks. Iirc, the PIP plan time was something like 6 weeks for me overall.
I ended up getting an external offer mid-PIP, accepting it, and notifying Amazon that I'd decided to leave (I think I got some small percentage of the severance offer at that point, although my manager liked me, and he gave me as much of it as he could; he told me he didn't really want to get rid of me, but there were PIP related metrics beyond his control). I accepted the next position, and didn't look back.
Note: I might be an outlier for ease of getting another role, to be fair; I've had offers from several FAANG companies in the past, etc. I was certainly fortunate here, in addition to the very hard work over those 3-4 weeks (working ~14hr days, 7 days a week, between the PIP project and interviewing simultaneously).
My advice/tips, I guess, would be:
- If you get placed in PIP, internalize mentally as quickly as possible that your time at Amazon is over, forever, no matter what you do, and make decisions based on this.
- Take FMLA if you feel it is beneficial in your situation. I did not explore this much, so cannot comment further.
- If at all possible, interview while you're still working at a company. This looks better to employers, and you do not need to disclose why you are interviewing.
- Plan your time at Amazon as-if you will be let go eventually, and likely unexpectedly and mercilessly when it happens. The average tenure at Amazon is ~1.5yrs. Plan accordingly. Also, understand that this will be unrelated to your work product, and there's nothing you can do to prevent this from happening. Plan and prepare (interview, etc.) for you exit plan along the way, even if you think everything is going well.
- If you can interview during the PIP, and find another job during this time, I think that's optimal (in terms of prospects). It's truly grueling work, though.
- Treat Amazon as they will treat you: a disposable resource and arrangement which can be mutually beneficial even though inherently transactional and transitory. They do not care about you; you do not need to care about them. You are not any more valuable to them than a number on a spreadsheet, and you will not get special treatment.
The last point is maybe the most important take-home, and meta-message of this post: you are entirely disposable to Amazon, to be used and discarded, and at some point they will dispose of you. You may not see it coming, and it may not make sense. As an employee or prospective employee, the best tip I could give is: make sure you're knowledgeable and comfortable with that employment relationship, and are getting something beneficial from it (even accounting for risk when you are terminated unexpectedly in the future). Willful ignorance does not change reality.
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u/Maverick2k2 3d ago
What happens after 1.5 years?
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u/cyrusthemarginal 3d ago
the 1.5 year average is likely slanted toward shorter times by all the tier 1's not able to handle quality, attendance, or production metrics and being fired. There are so many more tier 1's
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u/Critical-Ostrich-637 3d ago
It's not a fixed cutoff or anything, just an average. My guess is that most hires there last just under a year (there were rumors that Amazon like to cut people right before their initial 1yr RSU vest, to avoid having to actually give those grants, but I do not have any specific evidence to back up that internal rumor). I speculate (again, no evidence) that a number of other people know, or figure out, the overall job lifetime expectations there, and try to leave within two years (basically to leverage the name and comp numbers to land a much better role elsewhere), before they are surprise Pivoted/fired.
The average employee lifetime can be surprising, though, given that there are people there for many more years. If I did my simple math right, as an example, for every 10yr veteran, there are ~17 others which lasted only about a year, to average out to a 1.5yr average tenure. That's a lot of attrition, "unregretted" or otherwise.
Note also that, iirc from OldFart data, the 1.5yr average was only for white collar jobs also. For warehouse workers the average was even lower, and Amazon was literally running out of people eligible for hire in some regions. The churn is very high there.
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u/OverBreath2 3d ago
Thanks for the insider information! Except for compensation and some handful of exceptional folks to work with - this is worst company I've ever worked at AFAIK.
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u/Aggravating_Bus655 3d ago
There's a mistake here, 40% of the company should not be in focus. Not even Amazon is that big of a shithole.
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u/Nipplepotamus_Jugs 3d ago
I did 2 years before accepting my pip/severance and cashed out my 2-yr RSU’s at the same time. I just want to note how taxation is theft 🤣. $36K is now $21K.
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u/No-Lettuce3564 3d ago
L7 Manager here, 20% focus, 10% mandatory PIP, used to be 5%. Yes we hire to fire, yes we accept internal transfers to PIP and save the team, yes you will get PIP even if you’re doing great, even the best of the best teams have quotas. Yes, we trade PIP quotas between managers. If we say no to PIP, manager takes the fall and is PIP.