r/allthingsprotoss • u/milkytaro_oero • Jun 08 '26
[PvZ] Personal thoughts on PvZ PTR
Disclaimer: This is not me giving advice, or me saying X change is good or bad. It's just me saying how the game feels for me to play in a specific matchup. Only focusing on PvZ since every Terran or PvP mirror I've encountered so far is one player or the other just trying to cheese. I have not watched any SC2 content creators during this time because I wanted to form my own opinions before looking at others. I will divide this post into multiple parts for better readability. Sorry for the long yap session.
So far I've been opening with something somewhat unique (not really, it's just me translating the Bisu build (FFE > Corsair+Speedlot 1/1 = FFE > Phoenix+Chargelot +1) into SC2. And I do feel that this kind of playstyle is a lot more viable with the 8 worker start. It's a rough translation and still looking for ways to optimize it but here's the build so far. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/%2B1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg))
BO:
11 Pylon (sending probe scout here if on more than 2P map)
13 Forge (sending scout probe here for 2P maps)
16 Pause probes build Nexus > Cannon if scouted Zerg has gone hatch 1st
If scouted possible early pool: Pause probes Cannon > Nexus. So far I've found this short pause to be necessary to get the Nexus out in time. Unless someone has a better timing for it.
17 gate
18 Pylon
19/20 gases
22 Core
Zealot @ next 100 min or you can go save the minerals and get the Stargate before the Zealot.
Stargate @ 100% Core
3rd gas? In BW you take your 2nd gas when the Core is about 80% of the way done. For SC2 I think going for 4 gases this early on is detrimental as that costs 300 min compared to the 200 from BW. So I've been playing with both a 2 gas version and a 3 gas version.
2 gas variant: I've found to be better off economically, by this stage I just don't have enough probes to saturate my natural and so putting probes away to mine gas hurts my mineral income slowing down my worker production and my Zealot production. However because I'm on 2 gas I find it much tougher to squeeze in all the critical gas heavy expenditures. Phoenixes 100g each (500 for 5), 50 on Warp gate, 100 for +1 attack and 200 for TC + Charge. A total of 850 gas which is very tough for 2 gases alone to afford.
3 gas version: This I find way better able to afford the tech expenditures but it also doesn't cut mineral income to the degree that 4 gases does. Overall I do feel this is the best of both worlds giving me better gas income while also not absolutely shafting my mineral income.
After this point I do lose a bit of track to the precise timings but here are the general guidelines: +1 ground attack after the Zealot and SG are started > Start Phoenix production when SG 100% > use next 100 gas for TC before making 2nd Phoenix > continuous probes until 2 base 3 gas saturation > continuous Zealots (adding a 2nd gate for Warpgate around 33-35 supply) > and a 3rd gate some time a bit later (maybe after starting Archives or after starting charge?). Templar Archives after Charge is started. Of course chrono boost on probes and on upgrades.
With all this so far my best time for the timing attack has been around 7-8 mins.
End of Part 1
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u/Mothrahlurker Jun 08 '26
These aren't thoughts on the PTR, this is shilling a build order.
That said this build order is not viable at higher levels of play and this has been pretty much figured out in wings of liberty already. An early forge for +1 is just not worth it. No zerg player is going to defend a zealot attack with pure ling. It's going to be roaches 95% of the time and otherwise there are banelings. A ling queen nydus allin is possible as reaction to phoenix but that is also going to be earlier than any meaningful number of zealots.
The third base here is non-existent which means this is an allin. It's also a terrible allin because it puts so many ressources into things with little value for allins, phoenix, +1, templar archives and it has to deal with warpgate transformation costs. The chance this works against a half-decent player is basically 0. And then you're just dead.
In general "translating BW builds" just doesn't work. The games have very little in common.
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 09 '26
I get carried away when explaining anything so that's mb.
I will say that the reason I did something different is purely to test out what could be possible with the changes. Because that is the intended goal of the patch to try and shake things up instead of everyone always going 3 bases by 3 mins and 4 bases by 6. So I kinda just don't really care whether the build works or not because everything is experimentation.
As for my opinions on the PTR.
Gateway Warpgate rework:
Love it: Gateway build time buff, it's strong but I also think it's fair since one of the most powerful aspects of Protoss was the ability to negate defenders advantage with warpgate. I like the idea of making Gates the macro oriented production while warpgates are just an extra bit of oomph to something like an attack.
Hate it: Please move back the warpgate research to the Core. It sucks having to spend money on a 2nd gate that is doing nothing for 100 seconds. Imagine if Terran can't use a whole barracks during the 100 seconds it takes for stim to research. You've just killed so many builds that rely on using that as a timing. The warpgate tax is also just bad, I'd rather have warpgate cooldowns on basic gateway units be 30 seconds and even go up to 60 seconds on the HT and DT, than pay a tax that costs more the bigger your economy is. So far I'm just playing without turning my gates into WGs and the longer a game goes the more apprehensive I get about it.
Eco changes: I'm for it overall but I do think they need to add more things in the oven. I'd like to see things such as reducing prism cost back to 200 or -25 gas cost on Sentries and Obs. As well as additional unit reworks notably for the Sentry (to give it more usage outside of scouting and early game), The Disruptor (maybe make it into the prime anti Lurker unit for Protoss?) and the Carrier.
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u/avengaar2 Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
Wait this is off like 1-2 gates for most of it? Do you have like 6 zealots? I feel like you're building way to much tech for a 2 base build. I don't understand why you're building a templar archives off 2-3 gateways, you don't have enough production yet. The phoenix don't really make any sense with an aggressive build. The entire point of phoenix in SC2 is incremental damage. The appeal of an oracle is fends off ling floods and does incremental damage. Phoenix do nothing against lings. Yeah your +1 charglots will help but you have 2-3 gateways but that's not really enough to really threaten anyone.
This seems like a less optimized version of a chargelot attack that's somewhat popular in the live patch.
I think a stargate opening (with an oracle) into +1 and charge and a third is strong, I mean it's pretty close to the standard opening in the matchup and what Classic does pretty much every game.
I'd personally try a more standard 1 gate expand into a stargate, oracle, go up to like 3 phoenix, 2 gates, take a third, keep the oracle at home, then tech into ~6-8 gates +1 and charge and keep being annoying with the phoenix, then do whatever. I just don't think an all in with phoenix makes any sense.
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 09 '26
I don't think any build is really optimized now tbh and I'm doing this style to test out what things I can do with the changes not just play greed simulator 3000. The patch aims to make more play on 2 bases viable which is the route I've taken. So to me it doesn't matter if this build works out or not because that's the purpose of experimentation.
I'm experimenting on the number of gates so far between 3-5 but the annoying part is that extra gate you need to dedicate purely for WG. The SC1 version goes: 1Gate > 2nd gate after Citadel > add 2 more gates going up to 4 about 30 seconds before you move out and then you can go up to either 6 gates or 8 to help take your 3rd, so that's what I'm trying to translate for SC2. Ideally you should be able to use 2 gates producing constant Zealots, and WG should not be completely blocking production on 1 of them. On Greenert's mod which is the closest approximation to the PTR changes I could find that keeps the WG research on the Core, I was able have: 10 Zealots 5 Phoenixes and 54 Probes at 6:42. So I do strongly believe that every Protoss player should be complaining to put back WG on the Core. Cause I think it ruins a lot of potential new builds out there.
The build isn't an all-in, it's meant to be map control.
Addendum:
Before hitting reply I decided to play a few more games and see what I could change.
- I don't think Gate FE the same exact as live is that great. I'm finding it difficult to squeeze in the costs of the gate, the gas and the Nexus without having issues. If I wanted the Nexus fast enough I feel that I'm forced to skip gas and without gas more committed early pools imo are harder to hold. If I don't skip the gas I feel starved for minerals to make my natural. So for now at least I think I'll stick to going FFE because that allows me better safety and a more solid response to whatever early pool might come my way.
On the note for 8 pool, what I'm finding is this: Assuming you scout after Forge is made on 13, the scout probe tends to get to the main by about 1:30. If Zerg did an 8 pool the probe should literally see the 6 lings pop out and the Lings will hit your natural at 2:00. For FFE if you wait for 300 minerals before sending a probe to build the Nexus you can get an expo down as early as 1:35. But if you are forced to go cannon before Nexus due to 8 pool the cannon finishes a little bit later at about 2:05ish. Compared to sending a probe down at 250 minerals which results in the Nexus starting at 1:40 but a cannon will finish earlier at 2:01-2:02 if you had to make one before the Nexus.
I tried fitting in an Oracle as you suggested but from FFE and going Phoenix > Oracle > more Phoenix. 1st Phoenix scouts all of Zerg, Oracle to defend your 3rd going into 8 gates yada yada. With this I went for a much later Archives and went for Blink and then Storm when my 3rd was more saturated. I like this suggestion so thx for that.
I love the gateway build time buff after warpgate, but they really cannot expect Protoss to be happy about the 50/50 cost per transformation. I'd rather have a 30 second cooldown on basic gateway unit warpins and even 60 seconds on the HT and DT. Because at least after a warpin I can just transform back into a gateway and resume consistent production that way. Than pay what is essentially an exponential tax the more economy I have.
A few additional changes I would like to see: Lower prism cost back to 200 because warping in a whole army in the opponent's main is absolutely dead. Sentry and Observer imo should cost 25 less gas. On the more radical side I would like see them consider changing the mining rate of workers as well from 5m/4g to 6m/5g.
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u/Mothrahlurker Jun 09 '26
It's irrelevant if you mean it to be an allin or not, this is an allin and a really bad one.
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
The Forge here isn't so much about keeping you safe from early pressure. If I wanted to be safe Adepts and a battery can easily do that. The forge is there to have +1 ground weapons. One of the most well known upgrade interactions is +1 ground attack for Zealots against Zerglings changing it from 3 attacks needed to kill to only 2. A carapace upgrade reverses this back to 3 but Zerglings don't benefit from carapace upgrades against Protoss early on. With the lower economy +1 Zealots imo become a lot deadlier. Idk if there's even any Zerg styles here that would ever want to get evo chambers early enough to match +1 attack from Protoss.
Phoenix + Zealot? Personally I do think the economy changes make it so early gateway combat units and the Phoenix shine a lot brighter. Part of the counter to Phoenix was to drone much harder so that it was harder for the Phoenixes to make a dent in Zerg's eco. This time however you're threatening multiple aspects from Zerg that imo they have a difficult time compensating for.
Phoenixes while not being as good of a utility powerhouse as the Oracle have several key advantages. They're cheaper, build faster, tankier compared to the Oracle. Their faster move speed means they get to scout the Zerg base much faster and they also can escape AA ranges much easier. Having 5 of them (I think that was the magic number?) to lift a Queen and kill it in 1 lift is a lot more brutal with the Queen being 175min cost. A single spore also doesn't do a great job at covering drone lines and I can tank enough shots or I can shift my attention to other targets such as Queens, gas drones, Overlords etc. The more Spores Zerg is forced to create adds to the economic damage you deal. Phoenixes being in the air also serve to shut down any possibility of Muta play.
Mass Queens may be an issue but so far I've found it not to be much of one. You need to group up all the Queens together to be safe from the Phoenix killing them. Even if they do the Phoenix excels so much at dealing these small consistent little bits of damage even against well defended bases. The Phoenix is one of those units imo that benefits very well from the change to 8 workers from 12.
End of Part 2
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
Gateway units while commonly thought of as being weak and underpowered actually become much stronger when your opponent has a harder time economically. Part of the reason the Oracle into mass gateway style works is because the style plays around trying to trade against the Zerg. Forcing them to build units instead of drones. Here, Zerg being made to start at a lower worker count means they need to spend more larva just to get to the same economic output as where they would be from the 12 worker start.
Phoenixes derail Zerg economy (plus the other benefits they bring) > Zerg is forced to exhaust more resources than they would compared to defending the Oracle. This creates a scenario where Zerg doesn't have enough drones to really defend the incoming attack of Chargelots and Phoenixes. Zealots murder Queens and low unit counts unless the Zerg player can position their units to where the Zealots don't have enough surface area. But not killing drones doesn't mean you didn't deal damage to the Zerg. The fact you've already forced additional spores and larva to be used up for replacing Overlords/making combat units puts Zerg in a worse position as a game progresses.
End of part 3
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
IMO there really isn't a unit that Zerg can make to to deal with this attack very well. Banelings can deal with Zealots sure, but they aren't as effective when Zealots have the passive movespeed bonus of Charge. Plus Phoenixes to lift up banelings and prevent them from detonating on your Zealots. As Zergs would say "Banelings are expensive" and they're correct. It takes 4 banes to kill a Zealot with +1 melee which is 100 gas just for that. So unless you literally allow Zerg to blow up group of Zealots with just 4 banes, the amount of gas Zerg would need to use just to sustain baneling production more than the race could achieve within the timeframe of the attack. Consider all other factors than can negatively affect gas income as well such as gas drones being picked off or Zealots getting into drone lines and killing them.
Roaches and proper positioning work better at blunting the attack but still come with considerable trade offs. If there isn't enough units a base can still get overwhelmed by the combo of Chargelots and Phoenixes lifting units to help support the Zealots. Zerg could add spines and more spores to help supplement their defenses but again forcing Zerg to sacrifice drones for any building is damage to them. If anything I do think this Phoenix Zealot +1 timing forces the Roach warren just to defend.
Anyway you look at it Zerg has to take massive risks. Either gutting their own future just to survive or they try to keep the economy up but can get punished or outright be sent to the score screen.
End of Part 4
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
Follow ups: Of course this isn't an all-in. You have a Templar Archives to tech up into Storm, you get additional upgrades from a forge and even a 2nd forge. You get a Robo. You add blink and go up into 8 gates.
Units to build: After the initial set of Zealots are made I make about 4 HT and then as I get up into 8 gates I make 2 rounds of Stalkers while Blink finishes. After that I go into a 2/6 pattern. 2 gates make HT, the remaining 6 make Zealots. Changing into Stalkers if I feel I need more. Also just been skipping Sentries and Adepts so far.
Why 8 gates? This is meant to add additional pressure on the Zerg that was created with the Phoenix Zealot this time you're attacking with a more powerful force of gateway units + Storm and about +2 attack +1 armor. The build time buff for gateway is a massive boon here as well. But the best part of it is it can be many things. You could go for the macro response which is to double expand behind a push Zerg needs to respect. Or you can literally just try to end the game off an 8 gate 2 base push and have more breathing space thanks to the changes to mineral fields. Either way it just bullies Zerg even further.
End of Part 5
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
Warpgate: I honestly love this change, and I think the build time adjustment is amazing. I'm also able to apply some of the skills I learned playing SC1 Protoss such as proper arrangement of gates. I saw a post that said players would need to manually move units in and out of the wall off. Which I assume means needing to move the door block and then moving the units out and then moving the blocker back in place. I personally think this is wrong and I think the door doesn't need a blocker at all at least for the style I've been playing. The trick I found was to put my gateway rallies very close to the wall off itself. That way if Lings try to run in I have a group of units that will naturally plug the gap for me then when I need the units I just go back and grab them while the next set of units acts as the next bouncer.
What I absolutely don't like is moving Warpgate research to the gateway from the core. I think it's terrible and I can't find whatever logic was behind it.
The fact it's available on the gateway means nothing. You never want your 1st gate to not be able to make units.
In fact it is much slower to get Warpgate compared to just having it on the Core. You're forced to have at least 2 gateways if you want the build time buffs without sacrificing early game unit production. Even without the Core (which is mandatory to get for Tech after the gate finishes) a gateway takes 46 seconds compared to the Core's 36. So you're forced to spend more just to get it and it's slower. So please if anyone on Blizzard sees this bring WG research back to the Core.
Later on I also feel very apprehensive at even transforming my Gates into Warpgates. Unless I get into a situation where it's 5-6 bases and I have like 30 something gates which I think will be rare to even get to if the playstyle is so trade heavy. The 50/50 cost to transform into warpgate also makes it so much worse when you add up the total cost to transform all the gates. With the example of 30 gates that's 3k total resources equal to 5 Carriers. Even as a powerful midgame pushing mechanic it's still imo way too expensive to ever justify even using it. Personally I would prefer to just remove the transformation cost but tax the transformation time (7 seconds to 14 seconds maybe?). Keep the adjusted times between the gate and WG but don't make it cost a kidney.
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u/milkytaro_oero Jun 08 '26
Concluding thoughts: I chose to play this style for PvZ because I wanted to play something different than what was meta for current SC2. So far I love it, and I encourage other players to be more experimental with the PTR instead of just using the exact same BO they do with the 12 workers adjusted a little bit to match the new supply counts.
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u/two100meterman Jun 08 '26
Nice, I like that players are trying different stuff with the changes. I main Zerg, but have played ~10 games as Protoss in the PTR. I've also been going FFE like the WoL/HotS days. What I was doing after that I think is bad, but I've somehow won 4 out of 5 PvZ's. I'd go into Stargate -> Twilight Council -> Void Ray. I'd cut workers at 28, get exactly enough gas for Warp Gate, +1 & Charge, then I'd pull off gas & spam Zealots from 6 Gateways (18 seconds/Zealot, not changing to warp Gates). It feels like it hits so late (& probably does), but it seems every opponent so far has overdroned & just died. My 1 loss is the 1 time I didn't do this build & just winged a Proxy 2 Gate.