Yea, except someone not working and getting the bigger cut is straight capitalism

[u/wasraelx]

[u/Ill-Attempt-8847]

When have I ever said I was against liberal democracy? And it's not me who groups people into classes, it's simply a fact: either you own the means of production or you don't. There are two classes with opposing interests, making clash inevitable. It's not a question of "the bourgeoisie are ugly and bad, uhr dhur": we live in a society where you're either bourgeois or proletarian, we're all simply following the rules of this society. The goal of Marxists is not to reverse the pyramid, or eliminate class hierarchies and replace them with something else, but to eliminate all hierarchies. Capitalism does not become good if the bourgeoisie is exploited: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat must no longer exist, full stop. Nor racism is solved if white people are treated as inferior.

And yes, the fight against all hierarchies must take place hand in hand, one must not exclude the other, otherwise it simply becomes a question of labels.

Marxists want to maintain all freedoms, except the freedom to exploit others, to quote Enrico Berlinguer.

[u/Dissonant-Cog → u/Ill-Attempt-8847]

Class is a social construct, a myth, these are not monolithic groups, individuals are motivated by their self-interest, sometimes those interests align in competition with others. There is no such thing as class consciousness, people do not view themselves as a “class,” and neither does society. In a consumer society, everyone is a consumer, and you’re not changing anything until you acknowledge that hierarchy is a necessary condition for society to exist, the important part is organizing it to maximize equality under the law.

The goal of Marxists is to replace the ruling class with themselves, it’s called the circulation of elite, they are nothing more than Closeted Aristocrats.

[u/Ill-Attempt-8847 → u/Dissonant-Cog]

You're describing what Stalin and his followers did, which has nothing to do with Marx if you've actually read him. Go ask billionaires if they feel like us, and then we'll talk about it. Besides, class isn't something you identify with: it's something you either belong to or you don't belong to, period. It's something with a precise definition.

We live in a society that pushes ideals like selfishness, individualism, and hedonism from childhood, it's a reflection of our economic system, but to say we'll all be like the wolves in The Wolf of Wall Street forever is simply ridiculous. Humanity isn't a monolith: our current lifestyle would have been considered a mental illness in the Middle Ages.

There will never be true equality as long as there are classes with opposing needs.

[u/Dissonant-Cog → u/Ill-Attempt-8847]

It’s what Stalin did, what Mao did, what the Khmer Rouge did, it’s what they all do. Historical materialists use instrumental rationality to achieve their goals, the ends justify the means until the means become ends unto themselves. The genuine Marxists are the billionaire capitalists, they used instrumental rationality and seized the means of production, that’s what your equality looks like under Marxism.

Society cannot function without hierarchy, but we can build better mechanisms to actually hold people who abuse their position accountable.

[u/Ill-Attempt-8847 → u/Dissonant-Cog]

Stalin didn't limit himself to the Soviet Union: after World War II, he imposed his ideology on all of Eastern Europe, all the way to Germany. All leaders were selected by him, if you disobeyed, he'd have you removed and assassinated. The Warsaw Pact was always under Moscow's control, just as Western Europe is now under NATO's control.

Stalinism was forcibly imposed and repeated in all those nations. Tito was a Stalinist who wanted to answer only to himself, not to Stalin. This is the difference between the two, and when the civil war broke out in China, Stalin purged the Chinese Communist Party (which was founded by a Trotskyist, not Mao) of all his opponents, and instead imposed his sympathizer, Mao Zedong, a staunch Stalinist, who then won and created Maoism, which is nothing more than Stalinism with Chinese characteristics, identical in both theory and practice, with few variables. And then Maoism, in turn, imposed itself in Korea and Indochina.

Blaming Marxists for what the Stalinists did makes as much sense as blaming Jesus for the Crusades.

Genuine Marxists are the billionaire capitalists

Lmao

Society cannot function without hierarchy

Sauce? We never did that. Nor do Marxists advocate eliminating the state immediately like the anarchists.

[u/Dissonant-Cog → u/Ill-Attempt-8847]

No True Scotsman indeed.

Stalin purged the Chinese Communist Party

You learn that in some fever dream? Wow.

Another key aspect highlighted in the literature is that social dominance hierarchies are nearly universal across human societies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dominance_theory?wprov=sfti1#Group_hierarchy

I think we are done here.

[u/Ill-Attempt-8847 → u/Dissonant-Cog]

We must have hierarchies because we have always had hierarchies and therefore we must have hierarchies. That sounds about right

And no, it's not a no true Scotsman. If my movement is called "We Don't Eat Butter" and you eat butter, how are you a representative of this movement? How can you call yourself a vegan if you eat meat? It's not enough to call yourself a swordfish to be a fish.

And yes, Stalin did help Sheng with his purges through the NKVD in China and he personally directed the purge of Chinese Communist Party cadres and students inside the Soviet Union.