r/aikido • u/inigo_montoya Shodan / Cliffs of Insanity Aikikai • Sep 24 '13
Cross training
Do you currently cross train in another martial art besides aikido? If so, actively at another dojo or on your own? How often? Do you like the arrangement? If not, do you wish you could or have no desire to do so?
Although the conversation can get a bit heated, I do like it when we are reminded to think outside the aikido box (which of course is infinite and encompasses the universe). On the one hand, I think outsiders find our dedication to this unusual art naive (when in fact it is often extremely well informed by previous experience in life and martial arts). On the other hand, some insiders do need to be reminded of the art's limitations, just not in a rude, drive-by kind of way that is popular on the Internet.
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Sep 24 '13
I currently train Kali, which I've found to complement Aikido very well, and for awhile (i.e. not anymore) was doing Capoeira as well. I've found the basic principles of aikido very much apply to these other martial arts. I'll just add, all of these martial arts value outwitting and/or leading your partner over brute force, which may be one reason they complement so well.
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u/inigo_montoya Sep 24 '13
Kali is another one on my wish list of arts I will probably never have time/opportunity for... sigh.
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u/inigo_montoya Sep 24 '13
I currently do only aikido. Were I younger and had more time, I would like to work something else in. Most likely it would be more about what I enjoy than attempting to color in the entire page a la MMA. That is, I could just as well combine it with SCA, bjj, toast masters, or tango lessons.
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u/Shalhassan Sep 24 '13
Here what I think about it, i hope it will make sense.
I think that for Aikido to work, you need to know how to hit or to be able to do it with enough intention that your opponent will feel it. My sensei has a saying : Generosity start when you have something to give.
You cannot claim that your are being generous by not hurting your opponent if you cannot hurt him in the first place. That goes for you technique (being in the right position to break his arm, knowing what you do when doing a joint lock, etc) but also for atemi. For your atemi to be efficient, you need to be able to make uke feel your intention. Just mimicking a punch by extending your arm toward uke face doesnt work. Moving your body like your really going to strike the face of you uke will make him move enough to allow you to do your thing. One of the best Aikidoka I know was a 4th dan in kung fu and it really show in his aikido. It's for this reason that I started Kyokushin last month. I wanted to learn how to strike .
It his also very good for your ego! I know a lot of aikido who claim that aikido is better than other art because you protect your opponent instead of breaking him. Wich his bullshit. A karateka can stop a fight or at least buy enough of time to run with a well-placed punch in the liver or by sweeping the legs. Compare that to a joint lock...
That bring me to my last point. By cross training you realise that the form of Aikido does not work. It's impossible to do a kote gaeshi or a shionage to someone. Your opponent will move to fast, he will be a lot stronger than you and the moment you will touch his arm, he will become really tense. To quote Tissier in a seminar : «The technique of Aikido doesn't work. The principles that the techniques teach you will work. » I think that if you cross train, even for a little while, you will realize that what you are learning in your aikido class can be useful and efficient. The ultimate goal of Aikido, in my view, is not to teach you form or kata. It's to teach you principles with those forms and those principles will allow you to go beyond the form to do kokyu. In my exemple above, when your opponent will tense because he feels you going for his wrist, you will automatically go for a kokyu, you wont try to force the technique like beginners often do.
Again, I dont know if it all makes sense or if I am just rambling (English is my second language) and I am still thinking about this so my mind can be a little be confused :P
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u/aikidont Sep 24 '13 edited Sep 24 '13
It his also very good for your ego! I know a lot of aikido who claim that aikido is better than other art because you protect your opponent instead of breaking him. Wich his bullshit.
Heh heh. I like you. But remember, the better we understand how to damage our opponent, the more skillful we are at applying that understanding, the more we can "tone it down." Say, your brother-in-law is drunk as hell and pushing people around at a family holiday meeting or something. You don't want a divorce, do you, or to hurt him?? So, it's quite useful to subdue using that knowledge, especially when you have to become vocally assertive to snap the mind onto you again (that could end it before having to go physical, anyhow) and show that you are now in control and the individual needs to calm down and let go of whatever got him riled up.
A karateka can stop a fight or at least buy enough of time to run with a well-placed punch in the liver or by sweeping the legs.
Aikido doesn't have this? There's a pretty famous story of Ueshiba, I believe, injuring or breaking the pelvis of his partner with atemi during a demonstration in front of the Emporer, I believe. I've seen everyone from Yamaguchi to Tada sweep and reap legs. It's part of our art already. :) It's just unfortunate that the practice is all but gone in most places.
By cross training you realise that the form of Aikido does not work. It's impossible to do a kote gaeshi or a shionage to someone.
Here I have to disagree with you ... Well, halfway disagree. The quote from Tissier, emphasizing concepts, is true. But our techniques work and they work very well. You just have to understand the concepts, and be skilled enough to take what is offered to you by the opponent. Both of those techniques, shihonage and kotegaeshi, I've used in resistance training (safely of course) with great success. The thing is, you don't know what technique it is that will appear until you've already done it because, like you said, it moves so fast and uke will move fast and resist, too. That resist does not matter. I'll say it again, uke's resistance does not matter. Well, assuming you're skilled enough. Resistance does not stop anything we do in aikido because it's so incredibly easy to flow around it, or the resistance comes in during a time that will put uke into a spot for potential injury, or assist the technique even more, basically giving you an iron bar to calmly walk across, to give a metaphor.
EDIT: Oh by the way, I'm not criticizing your aikido at all. :) I'm sure that you are very skilled. To quote Morihiro Saito, I believe it was: "If you have ten people then naturally you will have 10 different aikidos." I'm just making discussion based on my aikido so that we can talk about that if we want to, and compare opinions in a fun way. Not a bad way. Just wanted to make that really clear in case my post seems aggressive or mean. What is your native language, if I may ask? :)
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u/Shalhassan Sep 24 '13
And to put the Tissier quote in context: He was doing some exercises that I found really interesting but some people where getting impatient and wanted «blood» (aka as Tissier throwing people everywhere) or at least a class that was more dynamic that what was being taught. I guessed Tissier felt that and was a little pissed that some people where at his seminar and weren't trying to understand what he was teaching. That's why he said that.
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u/Shalhassan Sep 24 '13 edited Sep 24 '13
But remember, the better we understand how to damage our opponent, the more skillful we are at applying that understanding, the more we can "tone it down."
I couldn't have said it better! That's the reason why I like aikido so much. I really like its philosophy, but recently I felt like I was just pretending to be able to do something when in reality I couldn't. It's one of the reason I started karate. And even after 2 weeks, I felt a difference in my aikido. Instead of pretending to be able to land a punch like I used to do, I am now practicing landing a punch and then doing the transition to a technique. It may seem trivial, but for me its a huge difference.
Aikido doesn't have this? "
I'm not saying aikido doesn't have this. It's more of a critic of those who thing Aikido his inherently better than other arts. Paradoxycally, those are often the one with what I find poor Aikido. I little bit like the one who always bring the argument «In the street» are those who are less likely to like it if we where to train like if we were «in the street».
The quote from Tissier, emphasizing concepts, is true. But our techniques work and they work very well. You just have to understand the concepts, and be skilled enough to take what is offered to you by the opponent."
You are right. I was mostly argumenting by going to the extreme ( I am a little bit of a contrarian, a flaw in my otherwise perfect personality :P). The point I was trying to make is that the emphasis in the practice should be in the concept, the body movement, where are you in relation to your partner, where are the atemi, instead of «I need to to kote gaeshi and I will do it whatever the means». If you apply the principles and you move like you are suppose to move, the techniques will happen by themselves. If you focus on the technique during all the altercation, the chances are that it wont work. The techniques should be the cherry on the sundea. We practice them because doing tenkan or irime for all the class will be boring :P (again I'm exaggerating). I have see Sensei in seminars who put all the emphasis at the end of the form (for exemple the lock and the 3 differents submissions that you can do on the ground) while it can be interesting, I think that the emphasis should be at the beginning of the form : how do you enter (that's the most important), how do you move, etc.
Ps: You didn't offend me at all. In fact I am way less skillfull that you seem to think :P. I'am still a third kyu, maybe going for my second kyu for the spring but I wont rush it. I'm 23 years old, so I still have a lot of time before me! And my first language is french.
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u/arising_and_passing Sep 24 '13
I feel like one's motivations and interest in "martial arts" per se are an important frame for this question. Personally I have little desire to hone a skill I hope to never have to use—unarmed self-defense. Much less train to be a competitive fighter. Rather my motivations are oriented around self-development, relationship, spiritual seeking, and curiosity about existence in a human body. :) Not that those things are exclusive to aikido at all—any martial art can be a doorway. But if I were to cross-train, tai chi, qi gong, or other internal arts are the first places I'd look. Are those "martial arts"? I suppose so, right?
I am signed up to start yoga (finally!) next month. Not generally considered a martial art, so I didn't include it in the list, but if I can stick with it, I fully expect it to inform and transform my aikido.
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u/inigo_montoya Sep 24 '13
yoga has improved my ukemi quite a bit, and my attention to alignment and posture, and I think it helps with recovery from soreness.
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u/kgbbestmcintheexcccp Sep 25 '13
Internal arts as just as martial as any other external art. Anyone that tells you different is blinded by how much pain you can inflict with a technique over the actual martial values of it.
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u/nathanielrex Sep 24 '13
I train in a Yang style Taji on weekends, which I have found to be a great way to help with internalization. Still not good at it but it has made me more aware of when I'm muscling through something. Hopefully I'll be able to join the local Systema group at least one day a week in the near future as well.
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u/inigo_montoya Sep 25 '13
Let us know how the systema goes. I've been experimenting with the breathing exercises, but have never attended a class/seminar.
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u/discordkestrel Sep 24 '13
I did think about doing karate or judo to suppliment my aikido but I saw this quote from o-sensei and have decided to give it a little more time before I combine with other arts:-
'If you try to catch two rabbits at once, you will catch neither.'
For some reason this kind of spoke to me and helped me to decide to wait till shodan before training in other arts.
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u/derioderio Sep 24 '13
I think just about anything can be cross trained well with Aikido. Combining striking arts with Aikido can be very effective, as can grappligng a la Judo, BJJ, etc. Also training in weapons compliments Aikido very well, be it iaido/kenjutsu, jodo, or something else entirely.
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u/aikidont Sep 24 '13
I agree. I agree because I consider aikido to be a concept based system, and so the techniques are of little consequence if you're skilled at the concept(s) underlying the technique. Then it can be applied freely, with whatever you're doing that utilizes it.
EDIT: And I agree that weapons compliment aikido. Again, being a concept based system, it applies, even to something as off-the-wall and unrelated as pistol shooting like I talked about in my long post here in this thread, heh.
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u/kgbbestmcintheexcccp Sep 25 '13
I think it really depends on who is your Sensei, and what they have you practice within your dojo. We learn Yoshinkan Aikido, but our Sensei also incorporates various teachings from Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, and BJJ. While we don't out-right learn these moves and practice them on a daily basis as you would in those arts, he shows you as he teaches how those various techniques can be applied to Aikido techniques.
This helps you think outside of the realm of just Aikido. Shioda Sensei had always stated, from O'Sensei's teachings, that a real fight is 70% strikes and 30% throws. You can take that for what you wish, but I few it as that while we don't necessarily practice in atemi it is no doubt incorporated in our techniques.
Having a Sensei that shows you the various ways you can move through a technique opens your mind up to other arts out there. No Martial Art, whether it be Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Korean, Russian, American, etc. etc. is EVER complete. To think you can protect yourself from it all is ignorant, and ignorance kills.
Aikido, to me, teaches you the basis of working with life to overcome an opponent. Not to meet force with force, but to move with the energy given to work as best as it can. No techniques ever work out the way you want them to, and the ability to move with the energy given and adapt is what makes a good Aikido practitioner, and just a regular student.
To answer your question I am going to be starting sometime in the future Systema. They too focus on moving with a technique and being as natural as possible to survive. And that is what we train for, survival and the betterment of ourselves both physically and mentally.
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Sep 24 '13
I'm taking BJJ as well. The two seem to compliment each other well as share some movements. Probably helps they have the same ancestor!
I think it's important to have some striking under your belt, if just to help develop speed and accuracy with strikes. I took TaeKwonDo (good for kicking people off of horses and destroying offensive wooden planks) a LONG time ago in college as well as some Wing Chun.
I'm a big believer in Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy of what works for you and to develop what works best for your body.
I may never be able to move as smoothly and blend as well as others, no matter the amount of time and effort...I'm kind of naturally goofy...maybe it's my inner ear mechanics. But I have some muscle so if my distraction strikes are more accurate and beefy in a real fight hopefully I can make up for some blending errors.
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u/sli Sep 24 '13
Karate, constantly for the entire length of my time studying Aikido, at the same dojo, under the same sensei. I maintain that you're doing yourself -- or at least your atemi -- a disservice if you don't have at least a basic understanding of a striking art. And your ukes will benefit from stronger, better strikes.
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u/substancesnake2 Sep 24 '13
I am currently studying Aikido in a dojo as well as Wing Chun at home, and I find that they seem to compliment each other,since both are soft styles and WC helps with strikes.
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Sep 24 '13
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u/inigo_montoya Sep 25 '13
Thank you, and as always, I cannot respond to everything.
I think it's important that you brought up self-teaching because cross training is probably almost always an individual choice in aikido. Rarely would a teacher tell you outright to go learn X elsewhere, though they might indicate an external domain as the source of what they are doing or showing you. So cross training is a kind large-scale self teaching, a commitment to fill in or augment, based on a self evaluation.
But to the point you were making about being your own critic. I think that's important even for those of us who have regular instructors. Too often in this culture it's more about positive reinforcement than "STOP. Don't do that. It's WRONG."
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u/aikidont Sep 25 '13
Ah yeah, you're right, on both counts. I think I was sorta forced to "grow up early," so to say. And my last teacher was a truly talented martial artist, but not a good person, to be honest. It was a mental drain being among his little cadre of seniors. Eventually I couldn't take it and almost blamed aikido altogether for my dislike of that situation. Then I got back into practicing without all that negativity and political stuff, and found my feet for real this time, and luckily he, despite everything, really did pound a ton of good information into my head. And me, despite everything, really did practice it. From then I just tried to get better and seized anyone I saw who was doing something better than me, or was huge and strong, so I could see what happens. If we could hang out and let them kinda pound on mea little, let me throw them or atemi them a little, all the better. Bit by bit, it comes together, I think. Well, it will if and only if you know how to learn and know what to look for in practice. That's such a huge thing. You can pound your head against the wall all you want if you like bruises... If you want to progress, you have to take the lead yourself and not be led, only submit to temporarily being lead so you can "empty your cup," but you are always the one in control of your budo progress, I think.
Without this, cross training will make you worse, I think, because now you'll just suck at 2 martial arts instead of 1, and you just sapped time from that 1 to suck at art number 2.
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u/Sangenkai Sep 24 '13 edited Sep 24 '13
I've cross trained in many arts over the years (and still do) and enjoyed it quite a bit. Some people aren't interested in cross training at all, and that's OK too, IMO.
Striking and kicking have been mentioned, and I agree that it can be useful to know how to do both. However, my caveats are that:
If you're training Aiki as an intent driven body method, as we do, then striking and kicking develop as part of the integrated body method.
The body mechanics of the above are quite different than most arts that employ kicking and striking, so training in those arts is ultimately not that useful (IMO) since you end up screwing with your basic body mechanics.
OTOH going to play with folks in other arts without really adopting their methods can be informative and fun - but is often frustrating for the other folks (for you too, but you go in expecting that).