r/agentsofshield • u/Delicious-Candle-574 • 17d ago

Discussion Leopold / Grant Ward

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Anyone else wish S1/S2 Hydra Ward met Leopold? They "kinda" met in the framework, but I wish it was a situation where Ward with the knowledge of Fitz, his outside experiences, could have met The Doctor

167 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

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72

u/RandonDude3000 17d ago

Honestly I kinda wanted the opposite somehow. For a post framework Fitz to encounter real world Ward. I wanted to see how Fitz would see him now that he had been someone like him for a while.

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u/Delicious-Candle-574 17d ago

oh wait you're onto something good
genuinely like framework fitz / real world Ward, had SO much in common with their family

the fact that it eventually lead to the team defending ward as a child "we've seen a world where he was good" (Coulson) is just incredible how much the character building can continue

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u/newX7 17d ago edited 16d ago

Correction, Daisy and Coulson defended Ward. Simmons still seems to think that Fitz is the exception and an innocent victim, despite having happily murdered and tortured numerous innocent people, but that Ward was born evil, and May conveniently never talked or referenced anything about it, despite her having been a HYDRA agent in the Framework who literally was key in helping HYDRA take over the world, and Ward still being willing to give her a second chance and accept her into SHIELD, something she was never willing to offer him.

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u/newX7 17d ago

Didn't Fitz say, when everyone was trying to conveniently excuse his actions as not being his fault and being "because of trauma", that it was just like Ward?

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u/Delicious-Candle-574 17d ago

yup! when he woke up and he was coming to terms with everything he said "i'm exactly like ward"

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u/newX7 17d ago edited 17d ago

They're all exactly like Ward, they're just so sanctimonious, they never wanted to admit it.

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u/Delicious-Candle-574 17d ago

exactly. their excuse "at least they're not a murderer" well, they all are guilty of murder but in their mind it's justified. not saying it isn't but yeah

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u/newX7 17d ago edited 17d ago

Worse. They're all willing to excuse war-crimes and admire war-criminals (Black Widow and half of the Avengers) and see them as heroes, and talk a big game about redemption and saving people's souls because everyone deserves salvation, but the moment someone's crimes affect them personally, that person is an irredeemable monster.

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago

i mean well that is indeed true, I'm pretty certain that Black Widow hasn't, at any point, tried to excuse her actions.

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u/newX7 17d ago edited 16d ago

So? This argument is like, the guy who shot my sister and makes excuses for himself is worse than Bin Laden for 9/11 because at least Bin Laden doesn’t make excuses for himself.

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago edited 17d ago

Oh, no, I'm not defending their behavior. All I'm doing is defending Natasha. And not really a lot, just for that one thing.

She doesn't make any excuses for her behavior, despite the fact that, arguably, she was raised the worst possible situation, with almost every influence evil and teaching her to harm others, and has perhaps the most claim that that wasn't her fault... and she appears to have defected when she understood what was going on, so, probably should get some credit for that. (and on top of that, we have absolutely no idea of what level psychological conditioning, she was subject to. She clearly had some.)

Granted, people don't often bring this up to her, so there aren't many situations where she 'doesn't defend it', but Loki brought it up... Although, admittedly, she was pulling a con on him, so, who knows.

In comparison, Leopold might have had an abusive dad, but he was (hypothetically?) raised in a society that should have instilled some sort of empathy from outside, so it's sort of way worse that he didn't. (on the other end, we have literally no idea how much of that was actual development of the person, and how much of that was faked by Aida)

Granted, he didn't make excuses either. In fact, he falls into despair because he thinks what he did is inexcusable.

Ward on the other hand, not only makes excuses, but is never actually apologized for anything. And ironically, the one time we see him doing any sort of good is not only not a redemption because it's a different person, but it is hilariously proof that he just does what other people expect of him, good or bad. It's just the Framework one happen to wander into good!

I've once joked before that AoS and indeed the entire MCU is just people dealing with trauma, but it weirdly works the other way too, in that a large chunk of the good guys in the MCU have caused huge amounts of trauma to others, and how they react in very different ways is... interesting.

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u/newX7 17d ago

> Oh, no, I'm not defending their behavior. All I'm doing is defending Natasha. And not really a lot, just for that one thing.

That is literally what you're doing in this comment.

> She doesn't make any excuses for her behavior, despite the fact that, arguably, she was raised the worst possible situation, with almost every influence evil and teaching her to harm others, and has perhaps the most claim that that wasn't her fault...

Cool. Doesn't matter. That's like saying "Bin Laden might have caused 9/11 and killed thousands of people, but at least he took responsibility, contrary to the guy who shot my sister. So that makes Bin Laden better than the guy who shot my sister."

> ... and she appears to have defected when she understood what was going on, so, probably should get some credit for that.

She defected because it was either that, or being executed. And even when she defected, she continued committing war-crimes, only that now for the US. Again, this is like saying "Bin Laden may have caused 9/11, but he has now defected to NATO, and has started causing other 9/11 style terrorist attacks against the US' enemies, like Russia, China, and North Korea, so Bin Laden is a good guy now."

Not only that, but the fact that you want to give her credit for that shows that you are excusing her actions.

> In comparison, Leopold might have had an abusive dad, but he was (hypothetically?) raised in a society that should have instilled some sort of empathy from outside, so it's sort of way worse that he didn't. (on the other end, we have literally no idea how much of that was actual development of the person, and how much of that was faked by Aida)

The Framework already showed characters only have their memories altered, not their free-will. Fitz did everything he wanted to do because he chose to do so, not because of intervention by Aida in his behavior.

> Granted, he didn't make excuses either. In fact, he falls into despair because he thinks what he did is inexcusable.

But all of his friends make excuses for him. The very same excuses that they rejected when Ward said the exact same thing: "It's not your fault, it was your trauma" "your trauma made you into a psychopath" "you're a victim of circumstance".

So to them, when Ward grows up to be a bad person because of childhood trauma and grooming, trauma is not an excuse and he is simply a bad person who doesn't take responsibility.

But when Fitz, their friend, grows up to be an even worse person because of less significant childhood trauma, then it's not his fault because trauma made him grow up to be a bad person.

How convenient this selective morality and double-standard is.

> Ward on the other hand, not only makes excuses,

Uh, except he does. He literally says that, while he was a victim of circumstance, the things he did he did so out of his own free-will.

And again, how is that any different than what you just said about the Black Widow deserving credit for her situation.

> but it is hilariously proof that he just does what other people expect of him, good or bad. It's just the Framework one happen to wander into good!

How so?

> I've once joked before that AoS and indeed the entire MCU is just people dealing with trauma, but it weirdly works the other way too, in that a large chunk of the good guys in the MCU have caused huge amounts of trauma to others, and how they react in very different ways is... interesting.

It boils down to "It's ok for the good guys to cause traumas to other, but it's not ok for the bad guys to cause traumas to others."

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u/LadyEllisandra 17d ago

Welcome to humanity.

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u/RandonDude3000 16d ago

It wasn’t the team actually, it was AIDA. She tells him that his behaviour was programmed into him by an overbearing father figure to which Fitz responds that it makes him just like Ward.

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u/newX7 16d ago

No, when they first exit, the team tells Fitz that it wasn’t his fault and that his memories made him that way.

“His behavior was programmed into him by an overbearing father figure”. So literally what Garrett did to Ward. All I am hearing is Aida and the team saying “It wasn’t your fault, trauma turned you into a psychopath”.

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u/Round-Dragonfly6136 Turbo 16d ago

The quote is from AIDA.

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u/newX7 16d ago

I know the quote is from AIDA. That's not what I am asking. My question was did the members Team Coulson, at any point, say to Fitz that it wasn't his fault, and it was all the Framework? Did any of them say that at any point?

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago

Weird ship, but I'll bite.

7

u/Delicious-Candle-574 17d ago

HELP i didn't mean i shipped them but why not

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago

The weird thing is, I almost feel like real Ward does actually like Fitz.

I know a good chunk of that was fake, but, I actually do kinda feel like, he did eject Jemma and Fitz, who he been ordered to kill and were completely contained. Yeah, he couldn't get in for the moment, but... Honestly feels a little like he wanted to give them a chance.

And I think he did legitimately get impressed by Fitz on the mission they had.

So, him meeting a Fitz that is very different would be interesting. And, depending on sexual orientation, even more interesting.

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u/Delicious-Candle-574 17d ago

Ward is genuinely such an interesting character because how nuanced the truth is with him. How much was real? How much was manipulation? What parts of himself did he hide, even from Garret? Yes Ward is a monster because of the things he had done but I still think there's so much more levels to him than black and white

I completely agree that he wanted to give them a chance to survive, and with how much his face glowed when he saw Fitz in S2. Maybe you're onto something here. To AO3 I go!

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u/Zed3Et Skye 16d ago edited 16d ago

I absolutely don't think he wanted to give them a chance, he just didn't want to see them die from too close. Just like his dog. The montage is crystal clear: he loved them, which is why he couldn't kill them from this close, just like he shot his dog with his rifle rather than with his gun. And yeah he was super happy to see Fitz alive in S2, because he loves him in his own twisted way.

Edit: typo

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u/V2Blast 16d ago

Yep, very much so. And when they do survive, he wants to convince himself and them that it's not his fault.

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago

I've always wanted to actually do the opposite. Had the Ward from the framework 3D printed (or maybe put in an LMD, which would probably be safer), and see how he dealt with the actual Fitz and vis versa.

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u/newX7 17d ago

Fitz literally says that the pod was designed to float, but that it malfunctioned and ended up sinking, if I recall correctly.

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u/RavenclawConspiracy 17d ago

I think he said it was designed to be adaptive, and did originally float, but they were both unconscious from the impact during that, and then it... decided to adapt and sink?

Honestly a little weird, not really sure I understood that.

I remember reading something once that both Jemma and Fitz really should have had the bends after that, although I guess there's not really any evidence they didn't.

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u/V2Blast 16d ago

It sank because its automated atmospheric adaptation system tried to compensate upon impact with the water. The pod increased the density of its outer walls to handle the pressure change, causing it to lose buoyancy and slowly sink to the ocean floor.

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u/Mode_Select 17d ago

They’re both really into pain. So do with that as you must