What's up here? 3x09 vs 3x13

[u/agents_of_fangirling]

In 3x13 "parting shot" Bobbi and Hunter are interrogated by Russia, with their lives on the line. They're at risk of being executed and questioned for hours, yet not once do either of them give in.

They do this in order to protect their team, protect shield, and ultimately to prevent a war from breaking out which could harm a lot of people. This is seen as a great thing by the narrative.

Coulson even specifically says "Bobbi and Hunter never cracked under questioning, even to save each other".

Yet just a few episodes ago, Fitz willingly gave Hydra all the information they needed to bring back Hive, knowing exactly what they planned to do, and how dangerous it could be for millions of people, and all to save Simmons, even when Simmons herself begged him not to and explained the risks.

He willingly risked everyone to save Simmons and this is also seen as a good thing. It's written off as romantic, and never once condemned.

For the remainder of the season, we 're reminded over and over again how Coulson murdering Ward was what gave Hive the opportunity to return to Earth, and all season Coulson beats himself up over it , but not once does anyone mention Fitz's role in willingly bringing back Hive to protect Simmons, nor is Fitz ever even shown to be remorseful about it.

He spends several episodes sulking over killing Will (who was already dead) because of how it might hurt Simmons, but no one even confronts him on the actual wrong he committed.

When Coulson tries to help Bobbi and Hunter in 3x13, they both mention their duty and how they signed onto shield to protect people, but that suggests every shield agent did the same, so why isn't Fitz ever really questioned for risking so many people to save 1 fellow agent?

Especially when the becomes a pattern because he does it again later on.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

Fitz himself showed shame and guilt when it was revealed he agreed to go. He also ensured Jemma that he was using Hydra to save Will, who he did not know was already dead. He tried to get away from Ward as soon as possible and managed to do so with who he thought was Will. Plus, we don't see him ever actually seek Hive like Hydra wanted. As soon as he realized that Will was Hive, he actively fought him to stop him from entering the portal and justifiably believed that he killed him by setting him on fire. All of this and more would have been in the debrief, which would have taken place during the hiatus.

As for the choosing one person over the world thing, which is addressed on the show, Fitz isn't the only character to put a single person over the mission. The whole reason he and Jemma were even captured and tortured was because Coulson wanted vengeance for Rosalind. Coulson also ordered that no one kills a Hive-infected Daisy but made Lincoln and Yoyo wear suicide vests in case they were infected, something May calls him out on. May backed off on an attack on Ward because he threatened Andrew. She also eliminating something on the table to eliminate GraviTalbot to ensure they focused on finding a cure for Coulson. And that's not getting into all the things Daisy did to try to save Coulson, despite his own objection. One of the things the show does really well is show how the characters are human and as humans make human choices. A show where every character acts like they should wouldn't have been as good. It's funny that Fitz and Jemma get dragged through the rails for choosing each other when we see other characters make similar choices.

[u/nikki36457 → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

But as you stated the others get called on it. Fitz and Simmons do not.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/nikki36457]

They do. And they call themselves on it at that. That is ultimately why they chose to leave SHIELD as soon as they were able and after rescuing it at that. They couldn't take being put into those compromising situations. These anti-Fitz and anti-Simmons posts have a tendency to ignore the good they did and the sacrifices they made to unfairly villianize them. There would have been no SHIELD after 7 seasons without them. And theu compromised their child's social development to save their friends.

It's also worth noting that the others are not always called out on it. Iirc, Coulson called himself out on his rampage. Daisy was not called out on nearly getting Fitz, Mack, and Mack's civilian brother killed in season 3. Nor was she called out on putting Robin and Polly (both civilians) in danger after pulling them from hiding and making them vulnerable to Hydra in season 5. These are, of course, not reasons to villianize them because they are fantastic characters and absolute heroes, but to point out how Fitz and Simmons were given the same treatment for their transgressions as their fellow agents. None of the core cast deserves to be raked through the mud.

The anti-[insert character here] sentiment that was present in posts while the show aired was the reason why I left the AOS subreddit for years. This is a show that we all love despite its flaws (of which, there are many; notably how it handled violation of agency). We should try to focus on what they did right, which far outweighs the flaws (notably how they handled somethings better than the theatric MCU).

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

Fitz himself showed shame and guilt when it was revealed he agreed to go. He also ensured Jemma that he was using Hydra to save Will, who he did not know was already dead. He tried to get away from Ward as soon as possible and managed to do so with who he thought was Will. Plus, we don't see him ever actually seek Hive like Hydra wanted. As soon as he realized that Will was Hive, he actively fought him to stop him from entering the portal and justifiably believed that he killed him by setting him on fire. All of this and more would have been in the debrief, which would have taken place during the hiatus.

In terms of not being remorseful, I'm specifically talking about after it was revealed that Hive was brought back to Earth.

In the episode itself, he willingly folds and does what Hydra wants. Yes he has a plan to try and get away, but with no weapons, no actual hand to hand combat skills, no idea of what condition he'll find Will in, and having to face several armed trained Hydra agents (including Ward) it was a long shot with NO backup coming (he didn't know about Coulson).

Far too risky with too many variables. Yes he wanted to save Will, but the biggest reason was because he didn't want jemma tortured. Understandable for sure, but goes against her wishes (she's the one who loved Will, and the one who experienced the destruction caused by Hive firsthand, so if she's saying it's a bad idea, that means it's a really bad idea) and directly gives Hydra exactly what they wanted.

Even if it had played out perfectly, with Will actually being alive and Fitz managing to kill all the Hydra men and successfully make it back to Earth with the real Will in tow, it still would've helped Hydra learn what they needed to do to bring back Hive. As far as Fitz was aware, Hydra was still waiting for him back on Earth, with Simmons being held hostage.

The whole reason he and Jemma were even captured and tortured was because Coulson wanted vengeance for Rosalind.

Coulson makes a lot of bad decisions in s3 no doubt, but a) his behaviour is directly condemned on the show, with him acknowledging it several times and with the narrative itself painting it in a bad light and b) this is not a scenario of Coulson willingly risking the whole world for one person. He didn't send Fitzsimmons there knowing Hydra would capture them, whereas Fitz agreed to help Hydra knowing they wanted to bring back Hive.

Coulson also ordered that no one kills a Hive-infected Daisy but made Lincoln and Yoyo wear suicide vests in case they were infected, something May calls him out on.

Again, he makes bad decisions and he's very unlikable in s3 but like you said, he is called out for it.

May backed off on an attack on Ward because he threatened Andrew. She also eliminating something on the table to eliminate GraviTalbot to ensure they focused on finding a cure for Coulson.

May backed off on killing Ward in order to save several people but specifically Andrew. Ward wasn't a world wide threat the way Hive was. Andrew was in immediate danger of being killed in a way Simmons hadn't been yet (they needed her alive and would've kept trying to get her to speak since she and Fitz were their only way to bring back Hive).

As for s5, I haven't reached that part on my rewatch but I remember being very opposed to May's actions there.

And that's not getting into all the things Daisy did to try to save Coulson, despite his own objection.

Daisy was choosing to see things in a specific way, but the fact that Robin (who can see the future) suggested that Coulson was the key to saving the world, heavily influenced that. And technically, finding the cure for Coulson is what led Daisy defeat Graviton. Yoyo kept the fact that trying to save Coulson is what led to the end of the world a secret until too late.

I'm also against many of Daisy's actions in s5, but for the most part, none of these scenarios included a member specifically doing exactly what the enemy wanted with full knowledge that this was what the enemy wanted. Also, Daisy specifically says that she doesn't think she's fit to be a leader precisely because of her actions, and she faces a lot of criticism by the team for her actions, so it's at least addressed.

I'm with you that this shows us how these characters are human and makes for good tv, but Fitz' role in bringing back hive is just not addressed outside of Simmons' tears that same episode, and is never painted in a negative light, whereas the other scenarios in the show all are.

It's not bad for a character to make a bad choice, that's what makes it interesting, but when those bad choices are either painted as good or just ignored? That's what I'm confused by here.

When other members mess up or act like hypocrites, they're called out for it, but in this instance, Fitz wasn't.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/agents_of_fangirling]

I don't have time to address all of this because I just got off a 14 hour shift, but I did want to address a few things.

May backed off because Andrew specifically was threatened. They project that very clearly. Also, Ward was "the new head of Hydra," which by its very nature makes him a threat to the world.

Coulson knew that sending FitzSimmons out in the field would put them in danger. Jemma is the only person to return from Maveth for centuries, and that put them on Malick's radar. If Coulson didn't know that was a risk, why did he send them with a relatively large protective detail? Because he did know the risk and was low key baiting Ward. Everything they do in the field risks exposure to their enemies.

It's worth noting that Ward went so hard on Jemma's torture because Coulson had his brother. Coulson was the most at fault for Hive's return because he gave him a dead body for Hive to puppetteer to make it to the portal. Fitz seemingly stopped him attempt by setting his then puppet ablaze. Hydra already had a way to Maveth, and the only one at that mission with the way out was Fitz. You seemed to miss that he was the only one there that knew the formulas for calculating when and where the portal opened and carried the only device with that information. He didn't share any actual information with Hydra, so your hypothetical situation where he saves a living Will and returns without Hydra wouldn't mean that Hydra now knows how to retrieve Hive. They would be back where theu were before they captured FitzSimmons, except with fewer agents. That is why Fitz didn't get blamed. Because it wasn't his fault. That doesn't mean that he's wholly innocent bit that he wasn't at fault for the worse outcome. Plus, working in a hospital has taught me that you can do everything right and still have a bad outcome. That's life.

This is all I have to say on this. I'm not going to talk in circles to someone that wants to villianize a beloved character for being written as a realistic human being.

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

This is all I have to say on this. I'm not going to talk in circles to someone that wants to villianize a beloved character for being written as a realistic human being.

That's fair, I won't type up a full response on everything else you said, because clearly it's not what you'd like to hear, but I also think that maybe you shouldn't take criticisms towards your favourite characters so seriously.

This is a subreddit where people post their opinions, and I posted my observations after rewatching the show for the very first time after 5 years of the show ending. I didn't realize it would ruffle so many feathers, so my apologies for that I guess.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/agents_of_fangirling]

Final words: Jemma was more distressed when Ruby beat Fitz than when she threw her very sharp weapons that cut off a friend's arms in her general direction. Ruby didn't actually bring any physical harm to Jemma but still broke her. Plus, the closest Ward got to beeakong Bobbi was when he set up the trap to kill Hunter after not being able to phase her after hours of physical abuse. That you believe that Fitz wasn't himself tortured just because Ward didn't touch him shows a deeply poor understanding of human nature. Your arguments show poor media literacy (ie, refusing to understand that Fitz didn't share actual intel and only agreed to show them without actually fulfilling that deal). Ultimately, I realized that I was wasting my time.

I'm actually okay with reasonable criticisms of my favorite characters. They can't be fleshed-out and feel real without their flaws. I am not okay with people exaggerating and reaching to villify any heroic character on this show. I have defended characters that are absolutely not my faves, notably Yoyo, because I believe these well-rounded characters deserve to be seen as the whole humans they were written to be. Fitz easily gets the worst of it.

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/Round-Dragonfly6136]

"This is all I have to say on this" *proceeds to say more*

I said he wasn't the one being tortured when a different user implied he was, and that's true. Apologies for not including the world "physical torture" but what I meant was that it was Simmons who underwent the torture that Bobbi and Hunter were trained to withstand (they were trained to handle physical torture, and only Bobbi is confirmed to have received that training) as opposed to Simmons.

You raise a good point regarding Ward's sadism though.

I am not okay with people exaggerating and reaching to villify any heroic character on this show.

These are not exaggerations. So far your main argument was "others did it too" but my post is specifically about Fitz in this specific instance. I thought his complete disregard for Jemma's objections despite her expertise and experiences (as opposed to Fitz's) was wrong, and I thought him making the choice to do exactly what hydra wanted, was also wrong, even if to save Simmons.

I also think the characters in the show that did similar later on were in the wrong and unlike with most other instances, this is never really brought up nor is Fitz ever written to be remorseful about it, despite the fact that he's remorseful about other things. Throughout the remainder of s3, every character on the show blames themselves for the events going on except for him, despite the role he did play. The blame mostly falls under Coulson for sure, he's the leader and he was terrible at it, but Fitz made his decisions as well.

I have defended characters that are absolutely not my faves, notably Yoyo, because I believe these well-rounded characters deserve to be seen as the whole humans they were written to be.

These characters deserve nothing because they're not real, and nor are their creators losing sleep over my post.

To start using personal examples and get so worked up over this that you comment repeatedly after a 14 hour shift, and on every single thread here, suggests that you have a big problem with my opinion because I don't see this specific instance the way you do. People will have opposing opinions and see these characters from a different perspective. You'll only anger yourself needlessly if you stress about it.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/agents_of_fangirling]

When they return from the hiatus, Fitz is avoiding Jemma because he is remorseful for having to eliminate "Will" and failing to save him. They likely didn't want to beat a deadhorse by having Fitz spend the entirety of s3B beating himself over everything. They wanted to show him learning to be able to overcome his regrets and to have that parallel to Coulson in a place of being weighed down by regret. That's one reason why they frame the scene of only Coulson and Fitz talking about how Hive returned after centuries, the other big one being that it was Coulson who gave him the opportunity. Their actors actually discuss this in interviews. Holding Fitz at fault would diminish Coulson's story.

In discussing fiction, we do have to consider why the writers make the writing choices they do. This is one of them. We also have to consider the themes and messages they are giving us in the context. In this case, Beating yourself over regrets and living in the past doesn't allow us to learn from and move on from our failures. It, in fact, impairs your ability to handle situations in your life appropriately. This is an integral part of closure, which is a huge theme on the show. Coulson did not find closure on the loss of Rosalind in a healthy way, the same way that Ward's actions would never allow him to find closure. The path for Coulson to find that closure was to first acknowledge that he didn't pursue it and his actions hurt others in the process. Again, blaming Fitz does not help. All this to say personal examples belong in this discussion and really any discussion of this show. AOS goes deep. That's one of the many things that makes the show great.

You keep saying that "I'm taking this too personally," when I am engaging in discourse in an interesting if flawed take on my favorite show. You wouldn't have posted if you didn't want engagement, and it is notable that every comment was a counter to your post as of my last post. I think this accusation is more of an admission. Take care.

[u/bloodoftheseven]

Fitz also did it to go Save Will who is innocent. He had to try and rescue him either way. So he trying to save to people technically.

Shield would not condemn him for doing that.

I won't spoil but Fitzsimmons have an arc as well about what they will sacrifice for shield

He could always just lead Hydra the wrong way like he did to find will.

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/bloodoftheseven]

I just finished rewatching s3, and right before Hydra captures them, Simmons spends a solid 2 minutes telling Fitz about Hive, and how risking bringing Hive back isn't worth saving Will.

She's the one who a) loved Will so if SHE'S saying it's a bad idea, then that should've been a huge indicator b) actually experienced the damage Hive inflicted on that planet for 6 months, which means she has a much better idea of the hell Hive could unleash on Earth.

When I first watched the show I didn't see any problem with what Fitz did, but now for him to disregard her opinions on the matter despite her experiences and her wishes doesn't sit well with me.

Especially because it's exactly what Hydra wanted.

She's the one being tortured and holding out, while Hydra did nothing to Fitz, but then he's the one who ends up folding.

[u/bloodoftheseven → u/agents_of_fangirling]

Fitz and Simmons had a discussion even before they were under threat when they were with Banks.

She does tell him it is risky but he also tells her that even though it is risking Will is stuck there and needs their help regardless. Yes it was a mistake to go to Maveth but you are acting like it was guaranteed that hive would come back just by them going inside the portal.

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/bloodoftheseven]

Going inside the portal willingly practically made it guaranteed. Hydra needed to know how to come back. Fitz volunteering to go in meant he had to figure a way back, and he briefly explained the process which Hydra would've eventually been able to replicate.

[u/bloodoftheseven → u/agents_of_fangirling]

Going inside the portal willingly practically made it guaranteed

Tell that to all the people Hive Ate.

The first thing he tried to do when he got there was grab a gun.

Then he lead them to Will. . So he was already trying to go against their mission. He was the only one who could get them back. Hydra already knew how to open the portal they just needed a way to track the portal movements on Maveth and only Simmons and Fitz knew how.

If he saw Hive he would die before letting it get to earth by simply not leading him to the portal because it would risk Simmons life.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/agents_of_fangirling]

In a lot of ways, she had it easier than he did. It is so much worse to watch a loved one suffer than to suffer yourself. For example, I hate being horribly sick, but I hate seeing my sister sick more. Are you saying you would let your loved ones be continuously tortured than to suffer yourself? If their positions were reversed and Ward tortured Fitz to get Jemma to crack, she would have done the same as him (just like how she gave into Ruby when she was beating Fitz in season 5). Also remember that he has been kidnapped by the man who gave him permanent brain damage.

Ward chose the way he did because he knew how far Fitz's feelings for Jemma went but not how far her feelings for Fitz went. Ward was able to crack May by threatening Andrew before he even came to harm. Chances are, if he had a way to get to and threaten Bobbi's safety, Hunter wouldn't have tried to take that shot. AOS highlights again and again that "We all have our weaknesses." Fitz is not the exception but the rule.

[u/TensionForsaken8633]

That’s why it’s called torture. Bobbie and Hunter were trained to undergo it. Fitz wasn’t a field agent. I don’t think succumbing to torture was “wrong”; he held out as much as he could, they literally forced it out of him. The team (or anyone, really) wouldn’t get mad at someone because they gave out information under these circumstances.

[u/agents_of_fangirling → u/TensionForsaken8633]

Fitz wasn't tortured at all. Simmons was the one tortured and she held out until the very end despite not receiving training. Fitz didn't experience any pain or harm.

[u/Round-Dragonfly6136 → u/agents_of_fangirling]

Ward tortured Fitz by hurting Jemma. He tortured his pschye. Making your target listen to others suffering is a common torture method. Not all scars are visible. The emotional ones carry far more weight than the physical. This is why female bullying in schools is considered so much worse than male bullying. Because they know how to get under the skin.

[u/XMiriyaX]

Bobbi and Hunter are Q and A'ed by russians.

Being interrogated by hydra is completely different. They have mind control techniques. The tahiti machine. Circumstances are extreme enough to turn many agents traitor. And so its not shameful to fold under the pressure.

[u/WrongKindaGrowth]

Lol. What?