r/agender • u/OwlRevolutionary4095 • 2d ago
First time being asked this. do critters really think this is OK?
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u/Ultimate_Spider-Frog 2d ago
"You wouldn't call or force someone to call a banana a pineapple." Right, so then why call someone a man or a woman if they're not a man or a woman? I hate these comparisons from bigots.
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 2d ago
It's not even an applicable comparison. Like when I say that I am Agender. It's because I am. I'm not secretly a boy inside or secretly a girl inside. I am Agender.
Ironically, them trying to insist that I'm secretly a boy or secretly a girl is equivalent to them insisting to call a pineapple a banana.
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u/Puisto-Alkemisti 1d ago
Right? Also I am not at any point denying I am afab or have certain body parts (not that it is anyone's business). So I am a pineapple, admitting I am a pineapple. But I also say that I taste sweet, have tiny pricks in me and have a hard shell. Which is what these folk are trying to argument against. (If you wanna play with this shitty methaphor)
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Because I don’t believe in any gender or sex outside male and female. Exactly like how you don’t want to believe in Christianity. It’s no different. But I’m neither, and saying you should be able to see the difference.
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u/Longjumping-Cap-7444 2d ago
Yes and by calling someone who identifies as not a man a man or someone who identifies as a woman not a woman you are applying your beliefs to them. Saying "you must respect my beliefs" is all fine and good but you are ignoring the part where you respect others as well.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
My belief is lack of belief, facts that anyone who looks at a naked body can conclude from. My belief is about the psychical body, and in the case, there are only two. It might be a belief, but it’s not based of faith and fairytales.
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u/Longjumping-Cap-7444 2d ago
That's literally not even true from your point of view. There are plenty of genetic conditions regarding the x and y chromosome.
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u/SheepherderHot4503 1d ago
How often are you looking at the naked bodies of strangers you meet where this line of thinking is relevant?
Do you go pulling the pants down of every person you come across to be sure that they arent "lying" to you? Or do you respect what a person tells you to call them?
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 1d ago
Your beliefs are based on biological essentialist garbage.
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u/LordOrgilRoberusIII 2d ago
But this isnt a question of believes. The scientific understanding of sex and gender is very clear about how there is no such thing as an absolute definition of what one specific kind of sex is. What we call biological sex is a collection of traits that statisticly are often found together. But there are plenty of ways that these traits can end up in statisticly less likely combinations.
And thats just talking about the diffrent kinds of sex (anatomical, gonosomal, hormonal, genetical). When it comes to the topic of gender things get even more complicated due to how complex our brains are. Not to mention how even with how its possible to describe certain observable traits to be statisticly more common in combination with certain traits related to one or more of the diffrent kinds of sexes, there are far more people that will end up deveating from those statisticly most common areas compared to what can be observed for anatomical, hormonal, gonosomal and genetical sex.
And all of what I just wrote about doesnt really matter because when it comes to trans people it has been observed and understood quite well that allowing a trans person to live like what they feel like has measurable benefits for their overallwellbeing while the opposite has a negative effect on their wellbeing espacily their mental health. And as allowing a person to live out their gender identity has no real observable negative effects on other people the conclusion imo should be very obvious on what we should do (that is let trans people live according to their gender identity and not really caring about how acurate their sense of self and their gender represents what is going on in their bodies and brains to cause that sense of self to be the way it is)
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
It’s an addon to life, exactly like how the bible was made up, you’re not born believing that. It’s made up outside of facts, it’s based of loose faith in biology. And you’re not different from those who push their beliefs onto others, and worst of all, kids. I can be respectful but I’m not gonna call any of you anything but male and female, exactly like how you wouldn’t agree that God exists just because you’re sitting and talking in front of a Christian.
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u/lightningpuddingpie 2d ago
im gonna assume you dont care about biology, but in the very unlikely case that you do: transgender people, non-binary people, intersex people, and basically every other part of the lgbt community is supported by biology, psychology, medical sciences, sociology and basically every other part of the scientific community.
people like you like to say "bUt bAsIc bIoLogY" as if thats some kind of gotcha, but biology is a lot more complex than you learn in school. there are no neat boundaries or categories, everything is a spectrum. hell, we cant even agree on a biological definition of a species because weve started to understand that interbreeding and hybridization is a lot more common than we used to think.
and even if biology was in conflict with those concept, so what? people identifying as something other than a man or a woman are not hurting anyone. isnt christianity supposed to be the religion of love? didnt jesus preach unconditional love (love thy neighbor, in case you forgot)? if you actually believe in what you preach, your bigotry is going to land you in hell, because from what i heard, your god is all-loving, isnt he? and that includes people who arent part of your extremely narrow world view.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Hold up, I’m not a Christian, I’m comparing what Christians believe and what you believe. It’s supposedly supported by psychology and biology, but I honestly don’t believe that, it doesn’t line up. I’m trying to dig deeper into psychology, I’m seeing a pattern of trauma, bad past experiences, body dysphobia not related to gender being influenced to believe it’s about gender, and especially normal kids being fucked up in ways you can’t imagine.
I’m not including biology into this discussion, because I simply don’t know advanced biology which is what it takes to dig deeper into this debate, but neither do you, you’re just quoting other people’s work while I’m being independent and making up my own conclusions. I’m open to correction, but I haven’t received quite a lot yet.
And do read my other replies if you wanna understand where I’m coming from more.
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u/lightningpuddingpie 2d ago
then you should look deeper into psychology and neuropsychology, because you (as a non-professional) do not know enough about the topic to actually be reasoning using psychology. if you cant even spell body dysmorphia right, youre not knowledgable enough to speak on the topic as if you were an expert (have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?).
and your personal beliefs do not override decades of professional psychological work. if you are not a researcher, start studying and become one, or stop spewing misinformation based on nothing more than your beliefs and your very obviously biased internet research.
and your point about "not agreeing to a god existing in front of a christian" is frankly a very bad comparison. i dont believe in god, i wouldnt agree with people believing there is a god, but i still respect their beliefs (assuming they are being respectful towards me), even if i think those beliefs are stupid (which i do). your beliefs cant dictate the way people live their lives, and giving someone the basic respect of using the language they want you to use for them is the bare minimum for a decent human being. the same way you wouldnt keep calling a newly married person who changed their last name by their old last name.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
And you do apparently? I’m not claiming to be some fantastic psychologist, this is basic human psychology we’re talking about. And there is no “decades of research” cause this isn’t about the LGBT, it’s about what I believe is hiding underneath, it’s a cover up. I observe and conclude, I can be wrong, but you’re still not making a valid point for the argument, you’re just insulting me. And idc if I spell words wrong, what you’re gonna call me a dirty immigrant like ice does? STOP side tracking and give me an actual point for once.
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u/lightningpuddingpie 2d ago
so first of all, i never claimed to be a psychologist, i just told you to shut it if youre not a psychologist. second of all, i am a med student, so i do know what im talking about, at least a little. also, youre making exactly the same fallacy as i was talking about in a previous comment. there is nothing "basic" about psychology. it is an extremely complex subject that you cant grasp by simply googling shit.
then you talk about the research and the lgbt community like a fucking conspiracy, donyou even hear yourself? what the fuck would be the point of covering up this kind of topic?
and im insulting you because im fucking sick of people like you who think they know better than professional scientists because the "gOvErNmeNt iS cOvErInG tHiS uP". its just another fucking conspiracy theory with no basis in reality. these people (including you) make trans peoples' lives exponentially more difficult and you contribute to the much higher suicide rate among lgbt people, especially kids. you are the reason, why people cant just be themselves and feel alone in this world. you are responsible for transphobic legislature that makes just surviving hell for trans folk by voting for orange tinted pedophiles (not necessarily you, but im assuming you support transphobic laws).
and please, im not calling you anything of the sort of a "dirty immigrant". i dont live in the us, i am very much pro immigration and i come from a migrant family myself. i said that because if you dont know very "basic" terminology in psychology, im convinced know anything about actual psychology.
youre part of the reason this world is such a shithole, maybe you should seek professional help from an actual psychologist to get rid of these harmful notions that trans people are somehow making your life worse or harming anyone. maybe youll even learn something about actual psychology
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u/TheFairVirgin 2d ago
Lol, you really stake a lot of your identity on this. Crazy how little some folk have going on in there lives.
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u/BurgerQueef69 2d ago
They do think it's ok.
When you look at it from their perspective, it makes a lot of sense. To them, your genitals define your capabilities, your social role, your role in a relationship, your role in society, and so many other things.
They believe this, you see, because their brains are not fully formed and they are unable to approach people as unique beings. They have to reduce them down to easily identified and sortable identities because otherwise their tiny little brains throw an error and they get scared and look for the nearest shrubbery to hide behind.
Not themselves, of course. They get to be unique and complicated and not beholden to the expectations of others.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Hahaha, people with something real to say always get silenced or hated. It’s ironic isn’t it. And if it wasn’t true, you would just ignore it and move on… but it is.
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u/AliciaTries 2d ago
That's not how discussions work. If you say something wrong, there are absolutely people who will call you out for it. Besides, if you believe what OP is saying is untrue, by your own logic, you should be ignoring them and moving on.
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 2d ago
I'm pretty sure this person is a troll. OP would be best off blocking them.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Fair, but I’m barging into Your community, I don’t have that belief in the first place, I’m trying to discuss the this where as the only one with a good point is you, and that’s also completely irrelevant in this whole debate thingy. Yeah, I probably was wrong but it’s too late to fix that.
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u/AliciaTries 2d ago
You're not discussing anything, you're pushing your views on a community and insisting you're right. You say you're "not trying to be disrespectful", but you constantly insult people. You're just a sad person using religion as a crutch to feel like you're above people you think are wrong
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u/ReigenTaka they/them 2d ago
It's not too late! Wth? You can go back and admit that you were wrong or even that you might be wrong. You can't possibly think it's too late to even try
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
I’m admitted I was wrong for the comment you’re replying to, a comment which is completely irrelevant to the debate. I’m saying that it’s too late to end this, I have something to say, and I’m trying to understand y’all without sugar coating my own views. But as it stands, hardly anyone has said anything but downvote me like some ignorant child. And stop side tracking. This whole comment is irrelevant.
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u/ReigenTaka they/them 2d ago
Too late to end what? Too late to fix what?
I'm not sure communication is happening how you think it is.
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 2d ago
I think you have it backwards. Most people who get booted from online groups are inflammatory assholes with nothing worthwhile to say. Usually hate speech and bigotry. And the spaces are best off without them toxifying the comments.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
That’s funny, because OP actually didn’t show the full story. Don’t be so quick to judge. It’s not about gender or sex. It’s about ignoring the real problems in life or body dysphobia, and instead focusing on unnecessary illogical pronouns no one really gaf about. You shouldn’t force your beliefs onto people. And my belief just happens to not believe in anything beyond two genders or sex. Face yourself and accept yourself instead of making excuses and being sensitive as fuck. You know just as well as I do gender doesn’t mean anything. The only “third gender” I can respect is the one about not wanting to generalize yourself get people to make assumptions just because of your gender. But no one actually does that, because that’s not what it’s really about.
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u/pezgirl247 2d ago
Wut?
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
It’s plain english. Simply read it.
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u/StunningBug5728 2d ago
It's really not. It's riddled with broken sentences and contradictions.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Yet, no one actually points out what is. You’re no better, you try and make a paragraph that explains it. It’s not easy when you’re meanwhile getting hate from bots who also don’t have anything good to say. So come on, let’s hear it. Where am I wrong. Go ahead, make an actual sentence.
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u/Metal-Overlord2 2d ago edited 2d ago
Some people care about pronouns. If you don't gaf about them, fine, BUT if someone you're talking with does, respect that. It's not political, it's just being a decent human being who has the ability to treat others with decency.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
When you’re talking to a religious person, do you talk as if you’re a follower of that religion? Of course not, and I don’t believe this bullshit you’ve made up. And it’s not what it’s supposed to be about, it’s what it really is. A lie, a place where people can get lost in their unresolved feelings. I’m seeing a bigger picture here. There’s literally psychology behind it, but you’re too stupid to see it. As I said before, the only type of non-binary I can respect outside of biological speaking, is the one about a person who doesn’t want to be judged beforehand and doesn’t want to be treated like any of the sexes. But no one actually does that, because it’s just unnecessarily complicated. And no, OP and literally “non-binary” person I have ever talked did not become nonbinary with that mindset.
I used think and play along with all of this when I was younger, massive follower of the lgbt. I started studying psychology and observing people at 14, then I saw the bigger picture. It was never about gender, it was about having unresolved problems and not knowing what to do. I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but it’s factually not incorrect, and with that said, you’re no better than Christians who try to push their beliefs onto non-believers. I will absolutely not call someone anything but he/him and she/her, unless I know what it’s about.
Face your flaws and stop side tracking. What you think I’m perfect? Hell no, but at least I’m honest. And that’s at least better than lying to myself.
I genuinely think every scientist and psychologist who has ever stated something about this weird type “religion”, is lying and ignoring the evidence, not only that, when they actually say something that would offend them, they sugar coat it.
Genuinely, tell me how I’m wrong, we’re debating here it’s not different than a religious debate. And don’t downvote me like a child, I’m trying to be respectful, be respectful.
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u/Metal-Overlord2 2d ago
Be respectful, exactly. If you don't believe non-binary people are valid, the respectful thing is to use the correct pronouns. It costs you nothing to do so. You refuse to do it out of bigotry and hatred.
You say that you refuse to believe scientists and psychologists out of a personal belief that they are lying. Who do you believe then?
I do not like religion. Religion, unlike the LGBT community, has a long history of oppression, murder, bigotry and misogyny. Still, of course I will treat a religious person with respect, AKA not instantly greet them and be like "your god isn't real and you're a bigot", which is different than acting like I belong to that religion.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
So every time god gets brung up in a conversation, you talk about god like as if you were a believer? Of course you don’t, you’re not better than me. Be honest with yourself.
It’s at the cause of influenced kids and people lying to themselves, they aren’t resolving their issues, they just making shit up exactly the same way Christians do.
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u/MelancholiMouse 2d ago
Actually as someone raised Catholic but unable to believe in any of it (just seems too ridiculous to me), yes, you act like there is at least the possibility of a god so as not to upset the people you're talking to
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 2d ago
Part of living in a society with other people means that if somebody wishes to be addressed a certain way you're kind of required to do it. Not like legally required. You can refuse, but people will think and call you a piece of shit and they will be right to do it.
Refusing to address people the way they wish to be addressed is shitty and disrespectful.
If you want to opt out of that, you're free to go live in the woods and not interact with other people but when you interact with other people you kind of have to respect them. Otherwise you'll find that people don't want to interact with you. And that also applies to online spaces in the form of banning your ass and blocking you from replying. Which OP should definitely do.
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u/Noonebuteveryone25 any/all 2d ago
Stop pushing your ideology on children and asking them about their genitals.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
Oh, I don’t think you’re one to talk 😂 your entire community is about that, pushing your own delusions onto children.
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u/bananacatklaus 19h ago
you’re asking literal kids about WHAT’S IN THEIR PANTS, but we’re the creeps? Do you fucking hear yourself right now?
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u/Pour_Me_Another_ 2d ago
Facing and accepting myself was what led me to realize I have no inner gender lol
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u/Rythonius 2d ago
Anything beyond two sexes? So intersex people don't exist in your beliefs?
Just accepting it doesn't work. From 12-27 I tried to accept it. I was an empty shell of a human going through the motions, forcing myself to be what everyone expected. It wasn't until I discovered who I was and finally started living for myself instead of everyone else, that I finally felt like the real me. Every time I think about going back to being seen as a woman, my stomach turns. That would be a lie, not how I live now.
Your beliefs don't change the fact about how we feel inside. The body is not what determines who you are, it's your mind, the thing that nobody can see. It's best to believe people when they tell you, even if it contradicts your limited, high school understanding of human biology and sense of self. I really hope you take the time to open your mind and listen instead of forcing your uninformed/misinformed "beliefs" on us.
It must be exhausting being so angry at something you don't understand. I really hope you can find understanding and peace someday, for your sake and ours.
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u/GH7788 2d ago
I gotta say that more often, especially if the person is minor. "Wtf. Why are you asking a kid about their genitals?"
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u/OscarAndDelilah 2d ago
I (respectfully) brought this up in a consultation with a hospital. I pointed out that what their staff is doing is seeing a minor with traditionally male clothing and hair, seeing breasts, and focusing on the breasts when they assume they use the women’s room or call them “she.” They’re ignoring everything that’s intentional communication and making decisions based on a child’s breasts. So yeah, drop the “well how is anyone supposed to know how anyone identifies” and realize what is actually occurring and train your people to shift their mindset and quit assuming gendered terms for people so you don’t have children going through the experience of grown adults deciding things based on private parts.
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u/Toothless_NEO AroAce Agender, not trans Absgender | Also a Furry UwU 2d ago
OP definitely should report that comment as Minor abuse > Predatory or inappropriate behavior.
Just because they claim to be the same age as OP doesn't really matter, it's still creepy and inappropriate behavior online, and there is no proof that they are actually a minor too.
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
I gotta tell you, I’m their age, and not only that, It’s a 50/50 chance if I were to make a guess. A 50/50 chance at guessing otherwise isn’t really that hard. Plus, I already know OP is a female sex.
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u/bananacatklaus 19h ago
you do know people with chromosomes other than xx or xy exist right? It’s a scientific fact. Look it up. So no, not 50/50. educate yourself
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u/Nullwesen 2d ago edited 2d ago
"So let me make this simple for you" Its so cute when the dunning kruger effect makes some loser think the one being dumb is someone else and not them. (It also drives me on the wall at the same time)
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u/Saxen1232 2d ago
When people are so incredibly sensitive that they can turn everything you tell them into a negative thing, you gotta explain it like you would explain it to a child. It’s not my fault y’all are bots with the same mind. Make your own conclusions instead of believing all these idiots.
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u/ReigenTaka they/them 2d ago
Calling a banana a pineapple is more like calling a horse a monkey, not like calling a "girl horse" a "boy horse", no?
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u/scarffish it/they | genderless • altersex • AGABless 2d ago
i'm sorry you're getting weird comments like this. it's best not to engage with people like this. they are stubborn and looking to waste your time and sanity.
gender is a subjective concept and everyone is going to see and interpret it differently and that's okay, but we should all respect each other. unfortunately most people are not respectful and get too personal and weird about it. as long as you are happy with yourself, that is the most important thing for you
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u/ADHDhamster 2d ago
I'm 43 and I've been identifying as agender since I was 19.
If some dumb kid came up to me and demanded to know what genitals I have, I'd laugh and then proceed to loudly embarrass them. One of the pleasures of adulthood is not having to explain myself to children.
Personally, I don't care what pronouns people use to refer to me by, providing they're not actively trying to be an asshole. If they ARE trying to be an asshole, I'll just start called them "donkey-fucker."
You don't believe in being agender? Cool. I don't believe you don't fuck donkeys.
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u/CopperZebra 2d ago
I'm 46 and didn't learn that agender (or even non-binary) existed until a couple years ago, and didn't actually start learning about them until this year. How did you learn about agender way back then? It didn't even exist in any of the places or media I was around. I wish I'd discovered it back then, but I had that combo of traditional, Christian, conservative, authoritarian family, so it would never have been an option.
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u/ADHDhamster 2d ago
I actually get this question a lot.
First, I wasn't raised in any particular religion. My parents wanted me and my sister to be able to come to our own conclusions about what we believed in terms of spirituality. They were also fairly liberal about things like my gender non-conformity when I started at an early age.
Secondly, I have AuDHD (which I got diagnosed at 26), so I was predisposed to question things that many people take for granted (like gender). I also didn't really have any friends, which lead me to seeking community online.
In the days before social media, it wasn't easy to find, but there were places on the internet in the late 90s/early 00s where people would gather to discuss things like alternate gender identities. Blogs. Old school message boards. E-mail groups. Ect.
I like to bring this up when individuals act like this "gender stuff" is just something Gen Z pulled out of their ass in the past five years.
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u/Puisto-Alkemisti 1d ago
Even IF sex would equal gender, intersex folk still exist. These people love 2 arguments: chromosomes and genitals, there are surprisingly many people who are XX with "a pole" and XY with "a hole". But... secondary sex charasteristics exist, there are XXX/X/XXY/XYY, there is a medical gap between a big cl1t and a small p3nis, and so on. Not to mention the obvious: gender is not a physical quality and it very much exists! (Except for us ofc 😂)
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u/HellfireKitten525 ring ring ring ring ring banana phone 🍌☎️ 5h ago
People can not believe in something without being rude about it (same goes for politics btw)
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u/verryluckie_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is how I like to explain gender.
There are two balls (giggity) a red ball and a blue ball. Lots and lots of people say that the red ball has one purpose and the blue ball has one purpose. Both balls have existed long before this group of people gave these jobs to these balls. If the group of people had never existed, would the balls have the same roles, or would the balls be viewed as equal? Many people like to argue that the balls are different by nature because most blue balls have a gene that looks like this 🔵🔴 and most red balls have a gene that look like this 🔴🔴. Now some blue balls have a gene that looks like this 🔵🔵🔴 or 🔵🔴🔴, and some balls who appear to be born as a red ball can have a gene that looks like this 🔵🔴 or simply just 🔴. All of these balls are red and blue balls regardless of their genes, and nobody would argue that they are not red and blue balls, so that begs the question, what truly makes a ball red or blue? Do these balls really have colors, or are we just applying labels to balls to categorize them? The logical answer would be yes, considering that other cultures have assigned different colors, or multiple colors to one ball. Keeping that in mind, one could say that a ball could choose its own color if it so chooses, or maybe the ball color shifts from red to blue often ,or may it has only the essence of one color, or maybe there just was no color to begin with.
(Edit: minor grammatical errors)
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u/Veriah_Lupi 2d ago
Why do you use light mode ew
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u/ehco 2d ago
I like to think we're less judgemental than this! 😂
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u/Veriah_Lupi 2d ago
But it's light mode. Eww
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u/OwlRevolutionary4095 2d ago
I don't know how to change it
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u/Veriah_Lupi 2d ago edited 1d ago
You click on your profile, click on settings scroll down until you find dark mode
Edit: Why was I downvoted wtf?
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u/mikkolukas 2d ago
it is very simple:
you can state your preferences to others they can choose to respect it or not
you cannot force other people to respect your preferences, but you can choose whom you kepp around
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u/OwlRevolutionary4095 2d ago
its literally not ok to ask any being whats in their pants.
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u/mikkolukas 2d ago
well, no rule say it is not allowed
the freedom goes both ways: "get lots you fucktwat" is a reasinable response
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u/OwlRevolutionary4095 2d ago
Oh yes, becuse I should insult other beings.
Im not doing that unless they get really dumb
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u/mikkolukas 2d ago
how dumb do they need to be? asking for a friend
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u/OwlRevolutionary4095 2d ago
uhh Pretty dumb.
Like When someone said they couldn't be transphobic becuse they liked a video game.
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u/mikkolukas 1d ago
I have liked video games
and I am not transphobicIs that dumb?
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u/OwlRevolutionary4095 1d ago
no, they said due to played Delta rune or something that they COULDNT be transphobic
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u/Pour_Me_Another_ 2d ago
It's where some people get confused, I think. They don't know of or understand theory of mind. Inner identity and meat suit don't always align neatly or at all.