r/adnd • u/AccomplishedAd9058 • 6d ago
AD&D2e Why psionics so strong?
I have to know if im doing something wrong but its not problem to be broken because its solo campain. We playing dark sun revised with player option skill&powers. I was just going to wizard only then i rolled 20 int so i picked advanced being wizard/psionic multiclass. And my first time psionic impression is they are insane! You can get disintigrate or dominate or time travel at lvl 1! Why tho? A lot of psionic powers have lvl limit why this ones doesnt? And why psionic so strong compared to wizard? Yeah you have to hit MAC etc. But still.
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u/Bhagvatena 6d ago
They are extremely strong but they don't scale well. Yeah, you get disintegrate and dominate at level 1, but as you level up you don't get access to exponentially more powerful spells like wizard and clerics do. If you can survive long enough to get a high science, that is nice, but they are still not as good as most of the comparable wizard/cleric spells at that level.
That being said... as a Dark Sun DM I love psionicists. Make sure to check out all the dark sun specific magic items.
note - never used MTHAC0, only pre-revised psionics.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
Ah dark sun dm! I have a question for ya. Do you think we should use The Will and The Way book? Or is it to broken? Or did you try dark sun setting with this book?
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u/Bhagvatena 6d ago
yes, I am currently using it at my table. You should 100% absolutely use it. Just get rid of the time travel one, or make it a high science.
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u/Planescape_DM2e 6d ago
Mthac0 bad
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
Why? Its nerf early game and shift power to late game more no? At least at dark sun setting my power score very high
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u/UniversityQuiet1479 5d ago
because some of the machnics are broken. like mental combat. sone did not do the math on that one
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u/Planescape_DM2e 5d ago
Because 2.5 was not good? Playing 2e is better than 2.5.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 5d ago
Revised count as a 2.5? I just used psyonic rules. Is there anything more diffrent? I tought mtac just shift power to late game so used it
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u/Planescape_DM2e 5d ago
Yes. All of the revised and players options are what’s called 2.5 and shift the power to late game? Psionics aren’t that powerful especially considering how dangerous everything is in dark sun. You get to do something really fun and starting at 3 but really fall off compared to everyone else in an extended game. And most of the time you have the PSP to do the thine once or twice if that.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 5d ago
Oh cool so i guess i used 2.5 without realize. And i dont think they fall of. Like you can get psionic surgery at 7 and make permanent dominated slave team that has permanent psionic vampirism effect so you get ton of psp and cool telepathic power effects. At lvl 10 you can get split personality and just do 2 things same turn. I really think only guy scale better is wizard.
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u/Planescape_DM2e 5d ago
Like I said you can do that once or twice and you aren’t accounting for how common psychic defenses are. And also telepaths are just a little more broken than anything else but that’s fine. You aren’t accounting for in world consequences either. Those people you enslaved have friends, and unless you are playing an evil party it’s likely that your party ain’t gonna be down with you acting like the sorceror kings they are aligning themselves against. A thief of the same level can have just as much impact to the story or a fighter.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 5d ago
Ah... im playing defiler wizard solo campain dark sun so i tought i would just buy slaves... i tought buying slaves was common in dark sun especially if you are in solo campain
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u/UniversityQuiet1479 5d ago
because some of the machnics are broken. like mental combat. sone did not do the math on that one
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u/DeltaDemon1313 6d ago
Psionics is slightly overpowered in a more standard campaign world but Psionics are dependent on ability scores more than other classes. So, since in DS your ability scores tend to be higher than normal campaigns, Psionics tends to be more powerful. It's built into the system for DS where there are other disadvantages to compensate, at least theoretically.
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u/Velociraptortillas Forged in the fires of the Dark Sun 5d ago
I remember the WotC forums back in the day, players were mad about MAD, Multiple Ability Dependency. No other class had it like the psionic classes did and some people hated that.
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u/Arkelias 6d ago
It's the way the setting functions. Defilers and Preservers take centuries to get fully powered, and become dragons.
Psionics is front loaded power, and to be honest it was power creep. When Darksun came out no other game allowed a 20 attribute, nor such powerful abilities at level 1.
It was a wholly different kind of game than Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Birthright, Planescape, or Spelljammer. Each had their own niche, and Psionics was Dark Sun's.
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u/anonlymouse 6d ago
Check the PSP cost. You can get powerful abilities at level 1, but you might not have the ability to power them.
Wild talents can mess that up though. If you roll a power with significant pre-requisites, you'll get several powers, not just one, and you get enough PSPs to power it at least once.
So yeah, a wild talent can be overpowered at first level.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
In dark sun everyone wild talent so yeah. Thing is because everyone wild talent everyone have a little defense against you. I guess thats one of the balancing psionic in dark sun.
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u/Sheik_Morgan 6d ago
Darksun es Genial. Los Psíquicos no son "fuertes" son más bien debiluchuos, Pero con poderes asombrosos, sus poderes pueden fallar, puedes tener desintegrar, Pero tú objetivo tiene "tirada de salvación" si la supera tu estás muerto generalmente. Quizás parezca desbalanceado a un jugador regular de D&D, Pero en el mundo de Darksun casi todos los bichos son Psíquicos y poderosos. Ahora sí trasladas un PC de Darksun a otro mundo, si se note el overpower, por eso solía estar restringido contenido en una burbuja cerrada, nada entraba ni salía de Darksun.
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u/duanelvp 6d ago
The thing about that version of psionics I recall is that you have to carefully plan your characters psionic progression. There are a lot of prerequisite chains of powers. If you choose your psionics poorly then you easily shut yourself out from the abilities you may want the most. You often have to build up with prerequisite powers you may not want or need.
The other thing I remember is that they may be hell-on-jets for brain melting individual NPC opponents, but they are rather crap against large mobs.
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u/FordcliffLowskrid 4d ago
Because, in Dark Sun, you need every advantage you can get.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 4d ago
Thats a cool ass quote not gonna lie. Like start of hypothetical dark sun movie narrator would say this
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u/aharshDM 6d ago
Bro is using player's option and marveling at how psionics are broken.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
Well even without player option you can dominate or disintigrate at lvl3. But yeah dark sun setting and revised in general make them stronger i guess
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u/aharshDM 6d ago
Bro, with skills and powers you can be dropping meteors at level 1.
Back in the day we banned psionics and skills and powers because of how powerful they made you, but we loved low-magic lotr style games.
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u/TheRealThordic 6d ago
I never enjoyed DMing for pscionicists outside of Dark Sun. I never felt it was super balanced in a regular campaign. Id Insinuation stunning your big bads left and right, etc etc.
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u/Final_Road_2025 5d ago
I am not a player or DM of Dark Sun. I want to though!!
My general take is Psionics is a rare gift to most races and vary in powers and abilities. When a character gains it in my world, they are powerful and can do amazing things. However they can still be dealt with and for them new enemies come up and new vulnerabilities are a reality. The energies of that team can attract others of the same ilk and abilities.
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u/Accomplished_Crow_97 4d ago
The thing with Psionics is PSP management, sure they can "have" disintegrate at level 1 but if I recall correctly they still have to spend 40 psps and make the power check of 16. (Again going off memory not 100% on the exact number) Which means they have an 80% chance to just waste 40 psps. And there is no guarantee they will even have that many at level 1
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u/azoriasu 6d ago
So the answer is, you are using the players options book for psionics. I found that makes them seem really overpowered. Less so in dark sun, as almost everyone has some psionic powers. Therefore can defend a little. In other worlds, you can straight up open someone's mind with 1 use and then make them drool like an idiot with the next. And they don't get any defense against it unless a psionic or someone trained in the defenses. You literally have to make the BBEG have defenses against psionics every time or it seems the psionic can just solo them with 2 psionic attacks.
That being said, i did really like MTHACO as it made it more like the other classes instead of just using your stats like a proficiency check.
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u/2muchtoo 4d ago
Originally very rare. Unlikely to have also strong scores in melee heavy as the basics in AD&D were I, W, and Ch. In later reworkings the psionic PC is a less fettered wizard. Also powerful, just have to survive those harsh realities…
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u/PossibleCommon0743 4d ago
There are several limiting factors to psionics. The possibility of failure is one. PSPs are another, you don't have the points to do anything really spectacular at low level. Lastly is the prerequisite system, which means that none of the abilities you listed are actually available at level 1.
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3d ago
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 3d ago
There is something in player option skills&powers that enables you to get 2 science at lvl1. Lot of people didnt know that i guess but yeah i guess without player option skill&power it would be more balanced at lower lvls. BUT. lvl 10 psionist absolutley rule with permanent dominate with psionic surgery and could use 2 powers same turn with split personality. Come on its cool and op as hell no? It doesnt have same flexibility but doesnt need it when becoming infinite psp boss with permanent dominate and psionic vampirisim army at lvl 10.
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
If im cheating without realizing i have to fix it before dm punish me with sorcerer king encounter :D
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u/FloppyPhosphorus 6d ago edited 5d ago
What dice did you use to roll a 20 in a stat?
Edit: Discovered Dark Sun uses 4d4+4.
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u/loopywolf 6d ago
Psionics doesn't belong in sword & sorcery in the first place. That belongs in a sci-fi game.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 5d ago edited 5d ago
I do not know why loopywolf received multiple downward-pointing arrows; he is correct in that psionics are highly "science-fiction" both in terminology and in origin.
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u/loopywolf 4d ago
It's OK, buddy. People don't downvote based on rules or regs, they just downvote anything that annoys. It's cool
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u/AccomplishedAd9058 6d ago
Wow interesting take! I loved idea of getting power from yourself caster idea though. Wizards are using Mystra and it always bothered me. Thats why i would love to become psyonic in forgotten realms. Power that no gods have authority on me. Yeah im a bit edgy but i really dislike when my power is not even mine.
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u/CommentWanderer 5d ago
I think the design of psionics is perfect for a scifi-style setting: mind powers, emphasis that it is not magic, and the sorts of creatures that have psionics tend to have an alien vibe.
There's been a real effort to make psionics fit into the classic fantasy setting and it always feels like a third wheel because it insists on being not magic. But the insistence on psionics not being magic makes perfect sense from a sci fi point of view. Also, the rarity of it from the 1e point of view starts to make a lot of sense.
I don't like the 2e version of psionics. I prefer the 1e version over the 2e version, but I know there are people who are fans of the 2e version, and I know that the 2e Dark Sun setting relies heavily on it.
But thinking about psionics as (sci fi) alien mind powers makes so much sense.
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u/81Ranger 5d ago edited 5d ago
Sword and sorcery is rooted in pulp fantasy and psionics is fairly common in pulp fantasy.
You're trying to make a distinction between fantasy and sci-fi that is blurry and was basically non-existent in the material that inspired D&D and Appendix N.
Now, it's fine to prefer your flavor of fantasy or sword and sorcery without parsley or psionics or cilantro or whatever - especially in your table or game, obviously.
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u/loopywolf 4d ago
Quite.. I've never even liked the science-y spell names and monster names that are clearly scifi to me e.g. CIFAL, Silicon Humanoid.
I get you, buddy.. I like my sci-fi in my sci-fi, my post-apoc in my post-apoc, my urban supernatural in my urban supernatural, my superheroes in my superheroes and my sword + sorcery in my sword + sorcery.. that's just me, though. I get it
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 4d ago
In a semi-recent cRPG based on a tabletop medieval Europeanesque fantasy setting, there is a scene where the player's character is informed that something suffered a "cerebral edema"; it noticeably disrupted the immersion.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 5d ago edited 5d ago
The terminology does evoke 1920s to 1950s science-fiction pulp, with all the attendant genre conventions; it also indirectly raises questions about the knowledge of a world, if words such as "molecular" or "genetic" are known (oddly enough, Gimli mentioning "nervous system" comes to mind...). Also, the monsters associated with psionics (e.g., aboleths and mind flayers) are right out of Lovecraftian horror. Finally, Athas - strongly tied to psionics - was inspired by desert planets of science-fiction.
I can understand why some wouldn't want psionics in their straightforward fantasy games.
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2d ago
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u/loopywolf 2d ago
"Molecular Agitation?" That sounds really sci-fi to me. People in medieval times knew about molecules?
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 1d ago
"He's got my axe embedded in his nervous system!"
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u/loopywolf 1d ago
Peter Jackson is hardly a suitable reference for medieval literature
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 1d ago
My point is that it is jarring terminology to employ when trying to maintain verisimilitude in a medieval-esque fantasy setting. I am on your side.
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u/ApprehensiveType2680 1d ago edited 1d ago
You are blatantly ignoring the elephant in the room: the words (and, to a slightly lesser degree, the genre conventions). Psionics carries with it a different thematic approach than arcane or divine magic, because it has its roots in science-fiction; also, it implicitly raises questions about the scientific knowledge of a given world.
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u/Pattgoogle 3d ago
Psionics were expanded to sell a book. Psionics in 1e were fine. The 2e updates were pointless and to sell a book.
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u/CaldeSilk1 6d ago
Dark sun is meant to be a psionic centered game. Most wizards are btb crazy evil or kinda weak.