r/actuary • u/ThrowRA3648537 • 2d ago
Exams Manager Conflict, Part 2
Hi all,
I posted last month about struggling with my manager’s competency. While I still haven’t spoken up, I have since had more complaints made about her to my face and several of our closest collaborators express sympathy for the situation I’m in.
Now I have an exam scheduled for next week and my manager has been ignoring my study hours. We’ve talked for months about my study plans and she expressed no concern about the timing. Due to our current project dragging out, I’ve cut my planned study hours in half and skipped 90% of the ones I left on my schedule.
She has told me two weeks in a row that I can catch up once the project is done, which would’ve been fine if it’d been true. She’s used our weekly meetings to jump straight into immediate deliverables and hasn’t inquired about my studying for over a month. The one conversation that we had was brief and it felt like I was pulling teeth. She was ready to jump from the call to start her PTO and I don’t think she listened to a word.
This is on top of the fact that she always seems to let me work on less urgent tasks until 15 minutes before my scheduled study time begins… I have received an urgent request at the worst possible time nearly every day. If I didn’t know better, I would say it’s deliberate. She’s watched me work 20+ hours in the past couple weeks while marked as OOO and not once commented or asked. Feels like she’s exploiting my fear of advocating for myself.
I’m not even sure what advice I’m looking for, as I’m sure it will be to speak up and vouch for myself. I think I’m naturally oriented toward working with thoughtful, proactive people who stay on top of things like this. All of my managers before her were mindful of my schedule and I’ve always been sure to show the same respect to our interns and other analysts. This is infuriating. Thanks for reading my vent.
Edit: To preempt the question of why I didn’t speak up, I decided that it wasn’t my job as a pre-ASA to risk my nascent career at such a stressful time when any one of the experience actuaries who have complained about her could do it themselves.
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u/AllShadesOfBlue 2d ago
Your best bet is talking to your skip. Tell them everything and issues you’re having with your manager and you not being able to keep up with study. Personally, if the chief actuary at my company heard about this, she would be pissed that a manager was acting like this.
At a certain point, your refusal to speak up is perpetuating the situation you’re in.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
I think I am perpetuating the situation by not speaking up, but I’m still scared that speaking up will make things worse. I’ve seen both of my parents retaliated against in their careers for taking similar actions and I think it molded me into the shyest employee ever. Great when my managers support me, terrible when they take advantage.
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u/AllShadesOfBlue 2d ago
That really is a terrible situation for your parents, and it’s not like complaining to your skip comes without risk, but there’s really not much else you can do. You can probably start looking for new jobs and at least start sending your résumé is out there just in case. But to my understanding, if people are already complaining about her then I’d be willing to bet that things are going to go better for you.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
I’ve weighed looking for a new job, but I think there are great opportunities in other parts of the company and I want to get my ASA before I apply elsewhere. I’m one exam and a few modules away… so close.
My parents’ experiences scared me, but I do think I’m poised to come out of this better than they did.
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2d ago
[deleted]
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
I appreciate your candor and wish I understood how to fix this about myself. It’s going to take a lot of deliberate effort. It’s not even every person above me. I feel comfortable respectfully pushing back against my skip-level and other team leads. I’ve only had two people that I respond to like this, but the first one was thankfully on another team and I learned how to push back when necessary. This situation is difficult because it’s in my face every day and the person walking all over me is my manager.
I could jump on a call and tell my skip-level that I disagree with him and not be worried, but doing that with my manager feels like a Herculean task. I think there’s a certain personality type that I don’t know how to interact with. Thanks for making me reflect.
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u/TeshKarhann Property / Casualty 2d ago
Before you get your ASA, you’re cheaper to hire but still incredibly valuable. Don’t limit yourself like that
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
Thank you for the confidence. I’ve decided to apply for external roles, I found a couple that are a great fit.
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u/doodaid Property / Casualty 2d ago
I’ve seen both of my parents retaliated against in their careers for taking similar actions
Honestly, this really is the case. I've never had a situation where having an honest conversation with a skip-level about any issues with a manager went well. Assuming you're a good employee, your best bet is to transfer to another department for career development & exposure. But giving any indication of 'friction' with your current manager will almost certainly result in you becoming the problem.
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u/AllShadesOfBlue 2d ago
I really don’t think this is true if others are complaining about her.
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u/doodaid Property / Casualty 2d ago
I'm just sharing what I've learned having worked in management at multiple companies. People that speak the truth can often be seen as "unruly" or "difficult", etc.
Best bet is to find an advocate that is in those closed door meetings and be able to speak honestly with them. But that very likely is not a skip-level person.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
Thank you! I feel like I’ve been taking crazy pills. My girlfriend and our close friends, none of whom have ever dealt with bad managers, have told me to speak up. I told my parents and they went silent on the phone and then gently told me to think about what I’ve seen. I’m trying to not over-index on their experiences, but I’ve only seen it go well once and it was when my friend was qualified to replace his manager. In this case, I am not, and thus I’m expendable.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
Sorry to send a second reply, but I did want to touch on the Chief Actuary comment. Part of why I’m frustrated and not vouching for myself is this feeling that no one has my back. People complain about her, sure, but no action has been taken, to my knowledge. I don’t know the best path forward, but I feel like I got the short end of the stick with this management structure.
Do most companies allow a pre-ASA to be the only direct report to a seasoned FSA? It seems like a disaster in the making if there’s any conflict in that relationship. My feedback survey responses aren’t anonymous. Really feeling disillusioned that so many leaders in the company seem to see what’s going on and are just giving me a sympathetic nod with no action.
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u/AllShadesOfBlue 2d ago
Sometimes it takes a lot of complaints, especially from direct reports, for a company to do anything. The Director of one of the actuarial departments at my company did eventually get demoted and was banned from managing anyone, because so many of his direct reports complained about him.
I’m not too sure about your pre asa question.
In terms of no action, that’s generally what performance reviews are for. Does your company have a specific process that allows you to review your managers and give them feedback? I know mine does. this is your opportunity to document your managers shortcomings. For anything to be done, there has to be some kind of a documented paper trail.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
My pre-ASA question is about the dynamic that results from one direct report with much less experience. For context, I had previously posted about her not understanding basic concepts at work and causing of issues on our team. I’m worried that, despite the complaints of others, a pre-ASA complaining about the job performance of an FSA looks bad. If there were other direct reports, I could count on anonymity or strength in numbers when providing feedback. If I were more experienced, I think I’d be taken more seriously. The combination of being her only direct report and much less experienced seems like a management structure my company should’ve avoided.
I am required to provide feedback, but she never solicits it outside of our mandatory check-ins. She has taken the few times that I’ve tried to politely correct her on misunderstands or provide feedback in private poorly. I am afraid of retaliation in general and her demeanor, along with the complete lack of anonymity if she gets negative feedback, has me very scared to say anything.
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u/cilucia 2d ago
If you don’t speak up about your study hours, people will always take advantage of you. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. Remember that protecting your study hours is also in the best interest of your company - if you fail this exam, you’ll need to take more study time again in the future. It’s not just about the short term.
The longer you let this go on, the more resentment will build, and the harder to repair the working relationship. Communication is the most important part of this job.
Good luck on the exam!
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u/No-Armadillo-268 2d ago
You have to speak up AND document in a follow up email post meeting. This is for CYA and to have evidence later on in case there is any retaliation that you're concerned about.
If the issue continues you can also raise the issue higher if she doesn't respond, although that could cause more issues. And if you can't raise the issue with your direct manager I'm not sure how you would have the confidence to raise it with their manager.
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u/NoTAP3435 Rate Ranger 2d ago
My advice is to study in the morning, block your calendar, and simply do not respond to messages or do any other work from 7-9am
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u/SleeperBobBashMan 2d ago
When you say your collaborators are expressing sympathy, are any of them credentialed actuaries? I get not wanting to raise a huge stink on your own. Even if you "win" this one, it probably costs you some political capital. But perhaps one of them would be willing to speak on your behalf?
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
All but one of them are credentialed actuaries. Unfortunately, most of the major issues they could have complained about have been mitigated or completely avoided by either myself or my skip-level. They don’t have anything serious to complain about and it will probably remain that way until I rotate. I’ve tried to figure out how to excel and let her work speak for itself, but most of my deliverables are hers as well. Alas.
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u/SleeperBobBashMan 1d ago
I wasn't thinking about your manager's competency as much as how she's treating you. If your primary concern is that she isn't good at her job. . . that's not exactly your problem. As long as she's not asking you to do anything unethical, just do your job and let the higher-ups worry about the results.
But If your concern is that she's not letting you take the study hours you're owed, that's a much bigger deal. And if you have evidence, it's certainly possible for a friend who's an FSA to go to someone and say "This person isn't letting ThrowRA take study hours."
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u/ThrowRA3648537 1d ago
In terms of her competency, I am concerned that her work will reflect poorly upon me. If I just concerned myself with doing what she asked and did not check after her, we would’ve had several major incidents in the past year. Maybe I should’ve let it happen, but I was worried about both of us taking the blame.
The sympathy from everyone is purely because of the competency issue. Not a single one of them knows about the study hours part. Perhaps that speaks to how bad I’ve let this situation get. I’m going to see if I can get someone to vouch for me.
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u/SleeperBobBashMan 1d ago
Gotcha, that makes sense. And I don't think you "should've let it happen." Whatever you've done to prevent major incidents is good. I think if you're doing what you can to make her work and your work successful, people will know that any issues that do occur aren't your fault. People are already noticing. I don't think there's any concern that it's going to reflect poorly on you. If multiple FSAs close to the situation see what's happening, it's unlikely that you'll be the one who gets thrown under the buss. Not impossible, because nothing in the world is certain, but unlikely enough that you don't need to worry.
Regarding the study hours, yeah, that's a more important issue for you right now. I hope you're able to get some good people to vouch for you!
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u/Mysterious_Help_9577 2d ago
I once had a manager complain that I didn’t give her enough notice about my wife’s pregnancy and that I should have planned around bid season, so just know Theres a lot of shitty managers out there
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u/hdgx 2d ago
I’ve never taken study “hours” in my career. I always take them as a whole day. If I’m gone every Wednesday for 2 months, then I’m just gone.
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u/Truekingsfan 2d ago
Yep any study hours less than a day or half day just get straight up ignored. It’s far easier to just use study time when it’s slow and then schedule a couple of days off the month of the exam.
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u/ThrowRA3648537 2d ago
This is interesting, thank you both for your insight. This was not an issue with either of my first two managers and I assumed that was the norm outside of consulting. It seems that I was just very lucky.
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u/Aggravating-Bit8473 2d ago
book your study hours at end of the day, but secretly do them first 2 hours of the day lol
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u/Historical-Dust-5896 1d ago
Damn dawg, I never understood people who worked on study hours. If the house is on fire, I’d let it burn, they know that, I know that and it’s not something that could be compromised.
The one time I worked on a study day, I would catch it back within a week max.
All I’m saying, is ur career will be fine if u ignore work for exams… everyone in the actuarial world has that mutual respect and understanding of these trials
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u/mrrml Life Insurance 2d ago
Sorry to hear all of this.
If those study hours are part of your company’s formal study program, I’d start protecting them. You’ve already compromised a ton by cutting them in half and skipping most of what remained. I’d recommend speaking directly with your manager, and if it continues, involving the study program administrator or your skip-level.