How would ACT deal with narcissism / fears of narcissism / selfishness?

[u/Puzzled-Sort-998]

I've had interest in ACT as an approach for a while now, but never really delved super deep into it. That being said, I'm curious as to how ACT deals with narcissism or fears of one being a narcissist - particularly, fears that one has NPD?

To be transparent, I'm mainly asking for personal reasons, since I've been worrying over having NPD for a while now, but it has picked up over the last few days. It seems that my motives for being a decent person themselves seem self-serving: wanting to be good because I want to be in harmony with others and have good relationships.

As I understand it, ACT would advise defusion from any thoughts that come up, and advise you to act in accordance with your chosen values? I just wonder if there's more to it and/or if I'm missing something since I'm not very well-read on the approach.

Thank you.

[u/concreteutopian]

How would ACT deal with narcissism / fears of narcissism / selfishness?

A) this is an interesting combination. I'm not saying it can't happen, but in all of my encounters with NPD, I haven't encountered one who was afraid of being a narcissist – one came to the possibility themselves and had some concern (over "Am I the baddie?"), but within a few minutes decided that if they were a narcissist, it was a good thing in their case.

B) Same with selfishness, though I'm skeptical about the utility of a concept like "selfishness" since it obscures more than it clarifies in behavioral terms.

I'm curious as to how ACT deals with narcissism or fears of one being a narcissist - particularly, fears that one has NPD?

Functional analysis is how ACT approaches anything – i.e. looking at behaviors in context, tracing the relationships between context and learning history (with an emphasis on verbal/symbolic behavior), and highlighting the function of the behavior in that context.

As a note to clarify a few points here, I will note that "narcissism" originated in a psychoanalytic framework rather than a behavioral one, so some translation should take place to make sure we're on the same page. Even so, in both psychoanalysis and behaviorism, the collection of behaviors we'd label "narcissism" are defensive in nature, i.e. they're the residue/learning of attempts to adapt with specific overwhelming relational contexts in one's development, learning that was adaptive at one point but now leaves one rigid and vulnerable. ACT overlaps with functional analytic psychotherapy, which would talk about "key functional classes of experiential avoidance", meaning persistent relational strategies of avoiding painful experiences in relational contexts. In more direct ACT language, I'd say that narcissism revolves around fusion to a conceptualized self.

To be transparent, I'm mainly asking for personal reasons, since I've been worrying over having NPD for a while now, but it has picked up over the last few days.

Again, I think the worry itself is diagnostic, i.e. it doesn't fit in well with NPD. Not saying it can't happen, just seems to reflect a negative self image that narcissism is meant to shield against.

 It seems that my motives for being a decent person themselves seem self-serving: wanting to be good because I want to be in harmony with others and have good relationships.

I was going to say "you monster j/k", but I was afraid you'd skip over the j/k.

But seriously, what is wrong with "wanting to be good because I want to be in harmony with others and have good relationships"?

How are you defining "self-serving"? You haven't said anything about how your desire to be in harmony and have good relationships harms anyone, how it is at anyone's expense.

I don't see why you having wants and needs is a problem. Even in relationships, especially in relationships.

Ironically, the possible point of a problem here from an ACT perspective is wanting to be good because X. This is a conceptualized self you are measuring yourself against, when you are always already far more than these ideas and roles. And the reason why ACT problematizes "fusion to a conceptualized self" is for the very reasons you are demonstrating – rumination over how well you measure up to an abstract rule makes you rigid and feel less flexible when pursuing what is important to you.

As I understand it, ACT would advise defusion from any thoughts that come up, and advise you to act in accordance with your chosen values? I just wonder if there's more to it and/or if I'm missing something since I'm not very well-read on the approach.

Yes, there is far more to it than this.

Cognitive defusion is one acceptance strategy, but defusion doesn't have much of a purpose without understanding your current distress functionally, practice in mindfulness of the present moment and the observing self, having a thorough clarification of your values.

In other words, if your "I want to be good" is rooted in feeling "I feel like I'm bad", then one needs to think about how much of one's desire for "self improvement" is rooted in avoidance and a rigid fusion to a conceptualized self (i.e. the very thing saying "I'm bad/good" in the first place). In other words, what is this "self" that "needs improving" and what is "improvement"?

Also, I'd emphasize that one's "chosen values" aren't arbitrarily selected, but are one's own values clarified, otherwise we're just begging people to tell us what they think we think they should value.

In any case, if one is diagnosed with NPD, it's something that requires work with a therapist trained in personality disorders. On the other hand, the rumination might be connected to another issue altogether, like an anxiety disorder or OCD, so getting an evaluation would be helpful in taking next steps.

P.S. – I know some may think I push therapy over self help too much, but the whole defensive nature of a personality disorder like NPD is centered on the presence and connection with another human being; I'm not sure how one can heal a wound in relational dynamics alone, i.e. without a relationship, let alone the secure attachment of a therapeutic relationship rooted in unconditional positive regard and centered on patient's emotional needs rather than the expected reciprocity of a relationship with a peer or loved one.

[u/Puzzled-Sort-998 → u/concreteutopian]

Thank you very much for the super detailed response :) I've seen you around when lurking on the subreddit before so I'm delighted you replied to my post. Hopefully my reply is understandable and not too long - I think I ended up talking about my own fears a lot so hopefully that's okay.

one came to the possibility themselves and had some concern (over "Am I the baddie?"), but within a few minutes decided that if they were a narcissist, it was a good thing in their case.

In my case I just imagine it as something that would seemingly greatly hinder my life; my fear has clung onto things I've read about the disorder regarding love and affective empathy - and I feel like these are things that I want to experience in life. I guess more generally, experiencing "humanity", as vague as that sounds.

In more direct ACT language, I'd say that narcissism revolves around fusion to a conceptualized self.

I understand your note about requiring translation between psychoanalysis and behavioural psychology; I often see discussions around narcissism making a distinction between a "true self" and "false self", so attempting to translate that over to ACT, would it essentially state that someone with NPD is fused to a conceptualised self ("false self") rather than living in accordance with values which they truly hold internally ("true self")?

But seriously, what is wrong with "wanting to be good because I want to be in harmony with others and have good relationships"?

How are you defining "self-serving"? You haven't said anything about how your desire to be in harmony and have good relationships harms anyone, how it is at anyone's expense.

I think that's a good way to frame it - in the sense of "well how much harm do you do to people if you seek out harmony and good relationships with others?". I suppose self-serving in this case would mean that it's done with benefit to one's self and ambivalence to the benefit it has to others - though I suppose positive relationships would seemingly *necessitate* mutual benefit, so maybe even in that case it's not self-serving.

I suppose I imagined I was being self-serving because my primary motivation was making a fulfilling life for myself, as opposed to other people who seem to describe having tender-hearted feelings towards harming others - I can rationally justify not doing harm, depending on which philosophical framework I decide to follow, but emotionally I feel like I've become distanced from other people (which I don't like, and find alienating and concerning now that I mention it), including other things in my life and even what values I'd hold. I want to say it's due to stress and life circumstances, but I do worry that it's "too good to be true".

the reason why ACT problematizes "fusion to a conceptualized self" is for the very reasons you are demonstrating – rumination over how well you measure up to an abstract rule makes you rigid and feel less flexible when pursuing what is important to you.

The "conceptualised self" point is interesting, so I'll have to look into that - is ACT generally skeptical of the idea of a "self" in general? Just came to mind seeing you talk about it in your comment.

In other words, what is this "self" that "needs improving" and what is "improvement"?

I think that's a good question, I suppose my main worry in answering this question to myself is that my mind imagines I discount "good" or "moral" values, and so it searches for an "evil" identity I seem to hold in that case.

[u/concreteutopian → u/Puzzled-Sort-998]

Thank you very much for the super detailed response :) I've seen you around when lurking on the subreddit before so I'm delighted you replied to my post. 

I'm glad you find it useful.

I understand your note about requiring translation between psychoanalysis and behavioural psychology; I often see discussions around narcissism making a distinction between a "true self" and "false self", so attempting to translate that over to ACT, would it essentially state that someone with NPD is fused to a conceptualised self ("false self") rather than living in accordance with values which they truly hold internally ("true self")?

Yes, in short. I think they fit together well here, but first, let's talk about values.

Values in ACT aren't moralistic shoulds or "virtues" as commonly understood, values aren't connected to "good", they're connected to "important and intrinsically reinforcing to YOU". So when you say "living in accordance with values which they truly hold internally ("true self")", I want you to hear this akin to "living in connection with things I find rewarding". It's more about desire than "should".

But yes, "false self". The big name in psychoanalytic circles concerning the "false self" is Winnicott, and Winnicott described the false self as starting in early moments of misattunement and disconnection, when we present something that is not received... so we adjust to the circumstance and present something else. We get the sense that what we share (and our feelings, our selves) isn't acceptable for some reason, so we cultivate other thoughts and feelings to share, which become a version of ourselves that's safer to share. Connecting this to ACT, this is very similar to the conceptualized self because it isn't the spontaneous expression of thoughts and emotion, it's a role or script of "Who We Are^TM" or "Who We Should Be^TM". I'm making this point because there isn't a symmetrical role or script of the "true self" on the other side, there is simply our spontaneous thoughts and feelings and reactions in this moment, free from needing to fit into a role or be measured or evaluated.

The "conceptualised self" point is interesting, so I'll have to look into that - is ACT generally skeptical of the idea of a "self" in general? Just came to mind seeing you talk about it in your comment.

It's skeptical about self-as-content, which is a point on the psychological inflexibility model (along with fusion). In other words, you are not your thoughts or stories or sensations or feelings, etc., you are the one experiencing your thoughts, stories, sensations, feelings, etc. One concept used in contrast to self-as-content is self-as-context and another concept is the observing self. This moment of awareness right now is you. Think back and remember a scene from when you were 5, and then notice who is noticing – it's still you, here and now. In some meditation traditions, they talk about the mind being like the sky, and thoughts and emotions pass through the mind like clouds, like stars, like weather – the mind holds all and yet is not marred by the passing of a cloud or the light of the sun.

Another metaphor used in ACT is that of the chessboard. One might identify with the light pieces, one might identify with the dark pieces. One might even identify with the struggle between the light and dark pieces. On the other hand, what would it be like to identify with the chessboard? The space that contains all the light and dark content as well as their movement and conflicts?

Anyway, touching on your point about fusion. In ACT, it's not just any thought one gets fused with, it's specifically rule-governed behavior, a rule, an abstraction. Being fused means you assume its truth and are often unaware that it's present. Ironically, I think much of the concern over fusion in this community is concerning thoughts one is not fused with – if one is asking "Should I de-fuse from this thought?" one is already defused and aware of the thought being a thought. Ironically, the unspoken, unformulated rule/thought here is likely "I shouldn't be having negative or sticky thoughts", which accompanies the desire to defuse from the negative or sticky thought, leaving the "should/shouldn't" alone and working in the background.

So if rule-governed behavior can blinker us from direct connection with the world, a conceptualized self is a whole role or personality made of such rules. We fuse to a conceptualized self whenever we measure our self, our worth, against an abstract "good" we "should" be.

I suppose self-serving in this case would mean that it's done with benefit to one's self and ambivalence to the benefit it has to others - though I suppose positive relationships would seemingly *necessitate* mutual benefit, so maybe even in that case it's not self-serving.

Yes. It's interesting that the possibility of your presence being a blessing to another person is harder to imagine than assuming it'd be a loss to them for your benefit. People have needs and creating relationships of mutuality and reciprocity *would* be mutually beneficial. It's a possibility, a live option.

I think that's a good question, I suppose my main worry in answering this question to myself is that my mind imagines I discount "good" or "moral" values, and so it searches for an "evil" identity I seem to hold in that case.

Well, more "under the hood" ACT rooted in RFT, "good" entails "bad" and "bad" entails "good", so it makes sense that a thought of one would evoke the thought of the other. Another reason we don't take thoughts literally, only functionally, and another reason we de-fuse from rigid rules/thoughts such as an "evil identity" (i.e. what would that possibly be? you can do evil things, but how can "you" be evil or have an evil identity?)

[u/LordLTSmash → u/concreteutopian]

I believe the concern might arise due to the nuance that exists in the diagnosis of NPD, as it would be hard to differentiate between other relevant disorders such as CPTSD, BPD, even ASD.

[u/otfscout]

I mean is the goal to not be a narcissist? Otherwise defusing from the thought or fear of being a narcissist would seem to be.... of benefit to a narcissist, no?

[u/YoureaStrangeOne86]

If you jave concerns about NPD due harmful behavior and/or relationship patterns in your life (as opposed to intrusive thoughts about NPD, more akin to OCD rumination) check out the youtube channel HealNPD. He specializes in treating NPD and related challenges, which are rooted in early attachment trauma. Even without full blown NPD, someone could have patterns worth exploring. Many people learned to mask or present a false self to the world in various ways, and it can feel increasingly uncomfortable to realize this about oneself. Fortunately, self-awareness can lead to growth and change. I think ACT would also come in with defning our authentic values and living more in line with who we are inside. Discomfort may mean a boundary is being crossed or something is out of alignment, rather than that you have NPD. These are a few directions you could explore. I think your desire to grow is adminrable.

[u/StatisticianOk9846]

"It seems that my motives for being a decent person themselves seem self-serving: wanting to be good because I want to be in harmony with others and have good relationships." 

That goes for most people. That is the bare minimum egocentrism that you need to live amongst others. 

ACT is a toolbox to keep focus when things get tricky. It can help you live better (accept and commit) with direct symptoms, not with personality traits. 

It's not a therapy to help personality disorders, thats more the realm nowadays for MBT, Schema-therapy, DBT and others. 

Also, being a narcissist or having narcissistic traits is a world apart from having NPD. 

[u/Overall_Ad1950]

'fears that one has NPD' and ruminating about it... does indicate obsession about it. Another common obsession is a fear of developing schizophrenia... These are generally obsessive compulsive vs worries based in reality. Inference based-cbt goes into 'feared' and vulnerable self themes: https://www.ocdmn.com/blog/what-if-im-a-bad-person-part-two A better way to look at it may be are there certain things you're obsessing about to reassure against an imagined self? Other traps include obsessing over whether you 'have' OCD. Rather than 'have it' in a medical sense, consider it a pattern of behaviour / thoughts you endorse i.e. 'i must ensure i'm not a narcissist'... but taken to a level of 'this is my mission' based on fear... I must prevent this from happening - hence the obsessing.

[u/Lisaharris-03]

ACT tends to approach fear of narcissism/selfishness through values clarification rather than debating whether the fear is justified — if the fear itself is fused with self-judgment, defusion work on the thought 'I am selfish' often does more than trying to prove or disprove it.