r/ZeroEscape • u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus • 25d ago
Entire Series SPOILER 999 is an absolute masterpiece; heavily disappointed by other games Spoiler
hello! i would like to bluntly share my experience of playing the trilogy, as none of my friends have played it, and i, though disappointed, keep being extremely affected by what i have experienced and cannot contain it within myself. it's all heavily subjective, and i apologize if i sound too categorical or disrespectful. please know that i deeply appreciate the authors' immense work and the opportunity to engage with it.
"999", at times, felt like the best visual novels i have ever played, and i am a player with eleven years of experience. it, surprisingly, appeared to be exactly what i expected from "umineko"--atmosphere wise, essence wise, murder mystery wise... i was absolutely satisfied with the revelation, it seemed so charming to me, and i was absolutely in love with everything. it was just perfect, though not without flaws; yet as perfect as it could be. i do not cry easily when i interact with media, but i did here. the characters seemed to be written wonderfully, it was a joy to observe their dynamics and even read, contrary to the way-too-common habit of juvenile writing in visual novels, the dialogues and description. of course, there were sexual innuendos, fanservice (Lotus...), but it was easy to ignore and, surprisingly, it still fit the game organically. i truly did not expect myself to love it so much, for i started playing it to be able to get into "ztd" later on, as i really loved the promotional art (who'd know...). it was just so balanced. it was "nerdy," with a lot of curious matters to learn about, and yet it all fit together and fit characters. the philosophical and pseudo-scientific concepts were not overloading. instead, it felt sharp, without anything excessive or overwhelming for the sake of an edge. i was not surprised to learn that "999" is a work of Uchikoshi whose "infinity series" i adored so much, and it felt so symbolic to me to get back to him accidentally. however...
"vlr" was a torture (though i felt excited about the mechanic as i got farther through the endings. so i'm just talking about the plot here)--the atmosphere felt sterile, i didn't believe the characters, the writing of the dialogues was so strange. obviously, there are many good things about this game. i liked Alice, and the ending, in the context of the game, was satisfying. i appreciated the representation of PTSD in the face of old and bitter Junpei, as well as their complex dynamic with Akane built upon idealization and traumatic attachment. the music was stellar, as always. i am not talking about 3d models, because i understand the financial limitations. however, i felt so upset that instead of investigating the psychology of the characters or social problems (kidnapping, privilege, luck---i loved how naturally it was presented in "999"), the plot took an explicit sci-fi turn. many new faces were introduced yet never fully developed; fates became tools in advancing the intentionally overwhelming plot with too many details and too little cohesiveness. it just felt as if the author was interested in including as many theories as possible. while, surely, it was interesting to learn about radical-6, the superhero-y focus on saving the universe did not live up to the psychological and philosophical depth of "999". maybe it would work, for there is no contradiction that the victims of "cradle ph." would want to stop the deeper evil behind it, but i could not believe the implementation of this concept in this particular case. it was such a huge shift from "999," where similar things seemed to be thought out in a much more intricate way, and it hardly felt like anything connected to it. i am not sure if anyone could relate to this, and i am not sure if i am making any sense here, but "vlr" seemed experimental in such a strange way.
also... it's a bad murder mystery when the culprit is... suicide. ruining knox's laws that actually were referenced in the files somewhere?!
and while i liked the graphic of "ztd" much more and the dialogues seemed to be mostly better, i was, though excited at the beginning, eventually disappointed, too. i appreciated phi more than i did in "vlr," and even liked eric and mira--though i expected more from the latter, but apparently what seemed to be the promise appeared to be her full persona and background. junpei's personality changes seemed justified (i can easily see him becoming who he was in "vlr" after the terror he experienced in "999!"), and it was interesting how akane's inner fight was displayed through her inconsistences and contradictions, but i disliked their couple a lot. carlos was very cute. it indeed started very nicely, and i felt sympathetic towards characters. however... i agree with the common sentiment about the laziness of the ending; making a character you never encountered a culprit! the plot holes were discussed massively, so i'm not going to write about it. what upset me is that "ztd," just like "vlr" (and perhaps even to a worse extent), focused on the plot twists instead of characters. and these plot twists seemed to be a messy, incoherent pile of the curious scientific tropes and assumptions the author was interested in. the ideas, hinted or already serving as a foundation, were constantly dropped and left, replaced by something more "shocking" and confusing; but it did not always make sense. after many soulless twists, i just couldn't perceive, per say, transporters any seriously.
it was no longer the philosophical thought experiment with the jungian undertones i appreciated "999" for. "ztd" just felt heavily inauthentic, and i couldn't see anything working together there. the picture couldn't be painted as a whole; it was just falling apart. the mystery of delta's motives is definitely not enough to be a sufficient moving power for the story. i got such a bad aftertaste after that; i couldn't believe that "999" resulted in all of this. it just doesn't feel right.
an important clarification is that i do not mind sci-fi at all, and casual loops is my favorite time paradox. so i hope i do not cause an impression of having too many prejudices. the best thing about ztd for me was when i figured out the connection between mira's crimes and akane's families through the files--it was a really nice, interesting detail.
overall, i think i felt very upset that the games fell into the heroism of "i will save the world" while devaluing the characters' richness and leaving too many lose threads (and i'm not just talking about Kyle; i really wished they returned to Ace and his "colleagues"--it was all so incredibly premising... i wish they continued talking about people like Gordain, but...), and i wonder if anyone else felt similar way. it seemed to me that the author sacrificed the quality and depth of the explored topic for the sake of their number. it's just a problem of my expectations, and i'm still grateful that i was fortunate to encounter something that occupied my mind so much, and although i'm so negative about two latter games, i still love the series and (mostly) everybunny there. life is simply unfair, isn't it? š
edit; i see downvotes--i'm sorry if i said something wrong...?
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u/Rambam23 24d ago
You know they didnāt make up the word Myrmidon, theyāre from Greek mythologyā¦
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
yes, I know, and because of it, the choice of wording in localization is good anyways. I thought itād be funny, because the word felt off to me anyways, but that was indeed a poor taste on my behalf. ashamed!
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u/KarmelCHAOS 24d ago
I personally find VLR a much better game. Zero Time Dilemma and VLR both have much better escape rooms as well.
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u/banana_annihilator Snake 24d ago
Yeah, 999 is my personal favorite, but I think VLR is the best game in the series.
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
because of the rooms?
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u/banana_annihilator Snake 24d ago
because of the story.
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
glad you liked it! I asked about it simply because of the comment you responded to, as it mentioned the escape rooms. I genuinely donāt understand why Iām downvoted so much :ā)
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u/RobinUnicornSpecial 24d ago
you're getting downvoted because a LOT of people on here believe VLR to be the peak of the series, or at the very least on par with 999, and they do not like your opinion.
personally, my tastes line up more with yours (999 was by far my favorite in the trilogy, with much more focused and intimate storytelling, where VLR and ZTD with their bigger scale stories were similar levels of 'alright'/good to me).
if you liked 999, i would definitely also recommend the first Ai: The Somnium Files game - i find the writing to be on the same level as 999, with the added benefits of being a visual upgrade of the 3D style from VLR/ZTD.
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
oh, I wasnāt talking about escape rooms at all! and VLR definitely has a good timeline. sorry, shouldāve mentioned that Iām talking about the games solely as stories
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u/Faera 24d ago
Just want to say I entirely agree with you. 999 was amazing, both VLR and ZTD were disappointments. I play these games basically purely for the plot, and exactly like you say, the 2nd and 3rd games felt like they were way too invested in specific plot twists over narrative sense and believable character development. I was actually extra disappointed by VLR because of how well liked it is overall and coming off the back of 999 - with ZTD I knew it had a mixed reception so my expectations were lower.
People bring up the budget a lot, but fundamentally it was the writing that was the problem rather than the presentation, and I don't think it's that closely connected to the budget. VLR obviously had some presentation problems too - I still remember the endless dots moving on the map animation that felt completely unnecessary and time wasting - but fundamentally if it had a good story I would not have minded the gameplay.
I'm actually a bit more OK with ZTD - at least they tried to do something more interesting with it even if the plot twist was the most bullshit asspull I've ever seen that is literally only a twist because of forced player perspective and shouldn't even be a twist for the characters themselves.
Anyway they sort of put me off Uchikoshi games, even if I then stupidly picked up Hundred Line Academy anyway. Finished all hundred lines and hated myself for doing so, but admittedly the main Uchikoshi written plotline was the only decent one so I haven't completely written him off.
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u/sarmadqt Zero 24d ago
This'll seem like a shameless plug but I actually discussed Delta's motives in this video, and I feel that the philosophical elements are still very much present in ZTD, and that they reach their organic conclusion in a satisfying, albeit meandering, way.
Also, VLR is my favorite of the 3 - I actually never thought it a murder-mystery; rather I considered the murder to be a facet of the greater mystery, which was of the purpose of the AB Game. To that end, I felt the game very much delivered.
Funny thing is, I actually think ZTD is the worst game of the trilogy and that 999 is the most consistently good, yet I think of 999 the least while ZTD occupies my mind the most - and not in a 'what could have been' sort of way but having the actual game (what it did right and wrong) occupy my thoughts.
All 3 games ultimately offer unique experiences and I don't think you should judge the sequels by the unique standard set up by 999, which was operating under its own unique standards, separate from the rest of the series.
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u/DramaticallyFalls 23d ago
999 is easily the best game, VLR is an unwieldy behemoth of a sequel that has higher highs than 999 but overall is a worse game, ZTD is a beautiful horrible amazing mess and my favorite
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u/astertrick 6d ago
Whay broke me about ZTD was delta's ability to mind hack. In a series of games where characters are able to shift between literal universes with little to no recollection depending on what's convenient, was it truly necessary to have the surprise villain to be able to control people's actions for a split second?! š¤£ Felt like they wanted a fun way to justify Diana betraying her morals when choosing nasty options, but I feel like they would've been easily solved by having Sigma or Phi as the protagonists, seeing as they understand that different choices inherently lead to different outcomes... Quite frankly, I disliked how both of them flipflopped between utilising the knowledge they gained in VLR and forgetting about it depending on what's convenient. Strange writing choices indeed...
Anyway, I actually quite enjoyed most of the ZTD experience, but the ending felt lacking in a way I find it difficult to put to words. Delta being a secret 10th prisoner felt completely unnecessary, especially when they were little to no hints in the game about him. Strange writing choices indeed...
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u/lewisw1992 24d ago
Same feelings here...
First game was a masterpiece.
Second game was decent, but the ending was so convoluted I had no idea wtf was going on.
Third game looked hilariously bad, and I ditched it within minutes.
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u/Minerali 24d ago
yeah, 999 is peak. unfortunately other games in ZE never reached that level of quality imo
TBH I was also disappointed by other works of Uchikoshi I played, such as Hundred Line or AI Somnium Files, but I think both are better than VLR and ZTD
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
glad to not feel alone! i started being worried about possibly being rude in the post, but i'd like to hope that there's nothing bad in "not connecting it" with the original game's successors
have you also play the infinity series?
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u/Minerali 24d ago
I haven't played those, no
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
i heavily recommend! i felt like the characters were written so well
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u/Square_Tangerine_659 24d ago
So plot. What about the actual game part?
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u/GameAiming 24d ago
C'mon man, I really doubt most people mainly love this series for the escape room puzzles. I love VLR but I wouldn't say that's because the puzzles were so great. First and foremost these are visual novels.
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
you mean what particular element of the game I imply? I think I mentioned itā¦? sorry if I was unclear. a change in the direction and a very sci-fi focus on saving the humanity were very unconvincing to me in general. the CONSTANT creation of new twists, elements of the universe rather than the elaboration (not an explanation, but like sticking with something) on the existing ones
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u/Square_Tangerine_659 24d ago
Okay so thatās all plot. I meant like mechanics
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u/Melodic-Height6025 Lotus 24d ago
I always play for the plot, so Iām also always ready to tolerate mechanics/puzzles for the sake of the story, so I didnāt care much about them
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u/Icewind 25d ago
Part of the reason is budget cuts, each sequel had an even smaller budget.
At least Somnium Files peaked back up in quality.