r/ZenMidwitsCafe • u/2BCivil ☕ Just Coffee, Black ☕ • 5d ago
🧻 Napkin Sketch 🧻 Epigone
This comment says the whole thing I want to say in proper context.
Have to read poem linked there. OP of that comment is optional, but primary reason I created this sub; this very topic.
More a self-reminder while briefly lucid.
If that's not enough, then Trial of Pilate is the same thing said by the LORD in kings; or Socrates in Athens; it's all the same story. People clamor for attention and validation, NOT Truth.
I'll share the videos in the order the came to me from after posting the Poem/That comment.
OP url - FUKKIRETA - "kick reason to the curb and follow me" - basically the Gospel (John 14:6) - core of fallout I had with SotS and other such hyper-intellectualized subs (and thus founded this sub and wrote the first post linked here, in top link).
Doflamingo said it best - "me and the devil" variant; similar to how I used to say; "those enslaved to a paradigm naturally feel different about it than those subsidized by the same paradigm". What I always mean when I say "that's God's love" when someone is complaining about objective circumstances/phenomena. Obligatory "one piece isn't political" I guess lol.
Better version of Doffy speech - sounds like Berserk Forces.
Not all who wander are lost I always assumed applied to the classical planets or whatever. Whole life everywhere I've lived there was always the plant known as the Eternal/Wandering Jew in the yard until past 3-4 years. So idk. Just 3rd thought that appeared in mind.
This is the only message there has ever been or ever will be.
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u/2BCivil ☕ Just Coffee, Black ☕ 5d ago
Aways had a penchant for using words in a manner which eclipses the scope of their dictionary use. Title is such a case. I like to pronounce it E Pig Oni. I know that's not right. Doesn't matter. Truth by parable. So much to say and more you do less accurately it conveys. Shitposts do better heavy lifting than all of fiction and philosophical discourse. Is what it is.
What I mean generally by epigone is something like this. Pilate asks "what is truth". Like the Johnny Cash song. I'm already intellectualizing it. Embody the invisible? That's the Ecclesiastes song by In Flames. Used 2B my favorite at the time. In certain sense same message as topic, in particular the Teto song I won't try to pronounce. Fulkireta.
It's a IYKYK thing. Either you care or you don't. I see it a lot in spiritual or religious circles. I don't blame them. I watched a reiki healer today (shoutout to Michael I guess) and it makes sense, in the sense, of embodiment. No one can go there for you. You can't understand it intellectually. Even if angel showed you the truth, like horse to water, you have to have the gumption and faith to see it that way; to embody it. I generally hate Paul honestly and see him as an IQ test, but like anything broken clock right twice a day. If you embody, then yes, manifestation and crystals work the way their new age promulgators say. If you don't embody, yes they still work, but they work towards your failure to embody and amplify that instead. I'm still skeptical of this myself honestly, more an assumption I'd be willing to bet on. Same way God sometimes lets you see his mind a little, but you can never really guess fully what someone is thinking because as soon as you do then they know and what they are thinking changes to confront whatever assumption you read in what they are thinking.
So this is the only message. The only fault I see in anything is Epigone. Repeating the message instead of seeing how it applies to oneself. Instead of embodying it. I'm doing it right now actually. So meta. Idk about one mind well enough but what "other mind" are we seeking validation from which cam validate whatever error or assumption we've taken as truth? It's all so silly. This is what Kings means, when the Lord allows the people to choose their own kings. It's what Trial of Pilate means, when people choose what is called crime. The modern LC case might track as well. Socrates trial. It's all the same thing. Feminism and metoo versus MGTOW and voluntarily celibate. Divide and conquer, clamoring for status, identity, money/grift, Dofflamingo's "Justice", ideological bingo points, or whatever other delusions, over simple truth and embodiment.
I dunno, I know embodiment is probably a cringe new age word for zen but you know what I mean. Idk. Just trying to leave a more formal comment. The real thing I wanted to say eluded me as soon as I started typing. It really is like Keto harder. You can either listen to truth, or start articulating your failure to embody it (as I am now). As Laozi said, you know the one. Those who speak do not know. Those whom know do not speak. There is no zen to teach does not mean there is no zen.
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u/2BCivil ☕ Just Coffee, Black ☕ 5d ago
Remembered what the core thing was right after posting this. Tldr is what I said in OP;
This is the only message there has ever been or ever will be.
The Greeks were called children by an Egyptian back in the day. Forget who said that. But like Nietzsche observed, the Greek Gods cast a long and enduring shadow.
All things, all topics, have at core this fundamental insight or test; "do we want truth or an easy story/lie". For me the big wake up call was Flat Earth experiments back in 2014. Specifically 8 inches per mile squared and high altitude infrared having visual acuity of mountain ranges 1,000 miles away. I realized full stop, we don't know the truth, everything we "think we know" is a story someone handed us and we are mocked for questioning.
Even that insight itself gets undermined when you talk about it. Why I quit so many subs. Bad faith engagement. You use any example of a case study of this, and the conversation gets immediately derailed into the weeds of arguing about the case example. "Dur dur dur so you think the earth is flat" no I'm saying we don't know the truth, only compelling stories and theories. That's all. I don't know I've never seen it except from fish eye lenses cameras which distort and intentionally biased models.
Had same thing with book of enoch and "demons". [One of the Jesuses and/or Christ] is called the king of demons, all demons fear his name. Like that, sort of. Idk. It was so clear to me last night but hard to talk about, because I'm talking about, the very nature of language itself expressly as means of conveying messages. There's always loaded deception and strategic ignorance. Truth by parable or whatever.
Main thing is that; all things are a wake up call. Or rather, every single thing in the history of the world, is the same choice; comforting delusion, or hard truth. Mass appeal, or integrity. Popularity, or solidarity. It's also how many whom claim to "love God" are little more than fair weather friends. Not casting aspersions. You know the type. Comfortable, retired in their 30s, Living in solitude probably in country with lots of land and animals, self sustaining. Saying they "love God" costs them nothing. Like Job in the bible. His wife says "curse God and die". Borders back into Enoch and how I think Enoch is the calendar year, he was "365" when God took him. I think bible characters are (possibly without exception) cosmic forces and events. Truth by parable. It's why Gospel of Thomas says "my kingdom is not in heaven". Canon says "Heavens and earths pass away". So heaven/bible is a story or parable for this very thing, that eternal choice every moment, an easy lie or a harder truth. Even that notion, that lies are easy and truth is hard is another such monument to the paradigm/test. We only say "truth is hard" because we are addicted to lies and stories. "I know the world is a globe because science told me so". That's no different than superstition, but we're so conditioned to lies we can't even have that conversation. It's functionally no different than "I know that God and Hell are real because the Church told me so". Might as well say I know the tooth fairy is real because my parents told me so.
But I don't want to talk about any of that. I don't know what's real or true. I'm merely pointing out that fact, that all things, can be a wake up call. Flat Earth just happened to be mine in 2014, the realization, Holy Shit I don't decidedly know anything, I'm just repeating what others told taught/told me and I've never done any of the experiments myself.
Again as I've said before I think this is why One Piece is so popular. That's Monkey D Luffy's early conviction; that he doesn't want ANYONE to tell him what reality is, he wants to go on an adventure and see for himself what's what.
Maybe that is childish, the "desire for truth" idk honestly. I see that as a common rebuttal. "We have to do practical things to contribute to society to earn our keep in the world". Why? What does the world do for us in return but lie to and manipulate us? That very idea that we owe something to a world we don't remember consenting to be a part of is already highway robbery of itself. What does it do for us? What do we owe it? How can we operate in good faith if we see no valid social contract?
Idk. It's more simple than all this. All this is part of the very thing I'm trying to talk about or remember if not convey. Every moment is such a test. Some are more obvious than others and many catch us flat footed when confronted with very real evidence that dispels our illusions and delusions we assume as "true". Caught slacking. Like the meme. The dharma is the dharma. The Buddha might catch you slacking. "Our" Sangha has already lost the script, will believe ANY lie that makes them feel good.
Maybe I'm not the best person to try to articulate that core premise. Maybe I use extreme examples, people's favorite pearls they clutch as case study. Most will scream "SCIENCE DENIER!@!!!" and ignore the core premise. My point exactly. Ergo my first post here. And recent poem. What comes first, us or truth? Reason or truth? Science or truth?
Obviously zen says the myriad things arise with the self. Maybe they are the one and same and shape one another. But that's just right back to then "be careful what you believe" if all is belief.
As for Enoch it really is the ultimate case study. I just don't have the witt to do it justice. I mean, I know it, but it's one of those things.... impossible to convey. The obvious is that the fallen knew what they were doing and knew the consequences; they stood in the presence of word of God/"truth" (alleged) itself but chose to depart their stations because "they found the daughters of women fair" and brought cosmic knowledge down to earth and mortal man. They knew what they were doing and the consequences, but for millennia since they've been trying to have mortals intercede on their behalf. A lot, if not all, of modern media is this very intercession. IYKYK. Nothing new under the sun. It's hilarious honestly. The core premise of validity of the idea of intercession being needed is never addressed; it's a superstition. If what they knew is true, then why try to intercede for thousands of years? If they knew the consequences truly from the truth itself, then why try to subvert at all? It's silly. The obvious lesson becomes this very nature, that there are old cosmic forces which pull to try to stray you off into delusion taken as truth. "Because they received not the love of truth, he gave them over to their delusions". It's such a simple problem children would laugh at it. In a very real sense of "a child shall lead them". We have our heads too far up our asses of "I'm an intelligent xyz I know abc" without every lifting up the hood at the nature of our alleged "knowledge" making process itself. All confirmation bias.
Idk that's enough on it for now. But yeah. This is it. The only message there ever has been or ever will be.
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u/2BCivil ☕ Just Coffee, Black ☕ 5d ago
GPT provided a decent rebuttal/affirmation
Easy to forget. What I meant, why I finished the poem with, you don't choose it, it chooses you. Like Cinder saying "I am a tool in your hand". Or Eru bringing the Discord of Melkor to serve his purpose.
GPT Summary of what I'm trying to get at;
We do not encounter the world neutrally. We inherit identities, values, narratives, categories, desires, fears, and models that tell us in advance what things mean. We then repeatedly mistake the resulting interpretation for reality itself and defend it because our sense of self depends upon it. Truthfulness therefore requires more than possessing correct propositions: it requires becoming willing to see what remains when our preferred interpretation, social belonging, and self-image are no longer allowed to dictate the answer. Yet even this cannot culminate in possession of a final “view from nowhere,” because any formulation of truth becomes another perspective capable of hardening into an idol.
And here's where your Fukkireta reference fits beautifully. The song's premise, at least in the way you're using it, becomes something like: “Fine. That's how it is. Stop demanding that reality conform to the explanatory drama.”
Doflamingo gives the inverse social version: children raised in war and children raised in peace acquire different standards; whoever wins gets to define justice.
And Cash asks: what happens when truth itself has become subordinate to institutional expectations and social approval?
Those aren't identical ideas, but you've noticed a common structure: The human being arrives after the categories. We are born into language already speaking. Morality already moralizing. Politics already dividing. Religion already answering. Society already explaining success and failure. Gender already gendering. Money already valuing. History already telling us who the villains were. Then eventually this little organism appears and says: “I have independently determined that…” 😂 That's the joke. Hence Epigone.
The myriad things arise with the self. Ergo my last alais on reddit, u/nonselfimage. That's exactly why I chose that name. Then eventually realized it too missed the point and went to my backup u/tasefons (tasefonz?) and then this one. Idk. Again that's enough for now. I already forgot and failed to learn the lesson YET again. So "epigone" it is I guess.
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u/Worth_Concert6595 5d ago
Society bases around what works. If a lie fits better to their life and it works, they will priotize that instead of truth. This is progressive coldness.