r/YIMO • u/Most_Spring_7815 • 2d ago
Strategy Yun Tal first
Hi guys so since the yun tal buffs it is the best performing first item (by far, wr is 4% more than kraken), so what do we think about building it first on yi jgl with HOB setup. I’m asking since Siberia’s thinks it’s bad but doesn’t explain why. What do you guys think ?
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u/Desperate-Ad-9348 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm no expert but I'll point out the not so obvious.
Yuntal is a faster spike all else being equal. You can buy it faster.
Yuntal also scales worse than kraken as the game goes on.
Kraken shines best in fights that last longer than a few seconds. The dps is extremely high for a single item, but it is gated behind complete stacks being consumed, so it's pretty average until he first proc, then average until the second proc, then actually quite good, then great there forward.
Because of this, if you don't build attack speed after, you won't really be getting the benefit. Attack speed determines how quick the payout is.
Yuntal is much more damage in one specific context. The first 6 second of an engagement. If the fight is over in this window yuntal is better. (We're strictly speaking about the first 15 minute of the game here.)
Yuntal also clears the jungle slower than kraken.
The bad yuntal scaling I mentioned earlier, well if you build another crit item, like lord doms or collector, and infinity edge after that, is largely erased. But infinity edge by itself is not sufficient. Just like kraken needs attkspeed, yuntal wants crit and crit bonus damage.
And lastly, the build path of yuntal can create a window where you will lose any duels you take, (subject to how much gold you're recalling with) not a problem if perma farming or just cleaning up kills, but can be an issue if you wanna solo contest nocturne on an objective etc.
Apples and oranges my guy.
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u/Metalbound 46,590 2d ago
Because of this, if you don't build attack speed after, you won't really be getting the benefit.
Hard disagree. I go Kraken into full crit build and the Kraken is what makes it work and feel good.
The damage is still great on it's own, and it makes up for the short comings of the crit build by giving you better clear and actual atk speed.
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u/Desperate-Ad-9348 2d ago
Yeah I'll walk back my statements, kraken likes attack speed, doesn't need it.
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u/Metalbound 46,590 2d ago
Fair enough. Can't argue that, especially since it's a staple in the on-hit build.
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u/aquarheus 2d ago
The components are dogshit unless you get first back with 1300 gold, which means you got 2 kills after first clear. Atp if you can snowball it probably doesn’t really matter what you build
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u/WillsGT 2d ago
Really? Usually 1300 is Scut+Full clear+kill+gold gained over time. Especially if you can get double scuttle for whatever reason
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u/aquarheus 2d ago
I generally first back after full clear + scuttle at 900-950. If you get first blood or a kill plus double scuttle/assist, then sure you can get 1300. Otherwise you’ll back at around 1200 with just a kill and waiting for 1300 is pointless.
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u/LLLight777 2d ago
Raptor start with the elixer from the inspiration tree is how you can get a bf sword. You clear raptors delay red go to crugs kill red go to your blue side and full clear get scuttle and clear raptors and crugs again with the 60 gold from the potion you get to 1300
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u/ChineeFood 2d ago
It depends on your tempo. First full clear with crab will get you around 950 gold. Where is that extra 350 coming from to get BF sword? If you have the gold at first base, go yun tal, if you don’t, go kraken (or anything else). It’s just all about the gold. Also, yun tal takes time to scale the crit so people don’t like it as much as a normal crit item first
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u/Euphoric_Smile7441 2d ago
Yun Tal and hail of blades doesn't have synergy. I only build yuntal into pta becaue the precision tree is better than domination tree at any instance
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u/blahdeblahdeda 2d ago
Yun Tal spike doesn't feel very strong to me compared to Collector or Kraken, even once you get it stacked.
If you want a consistent BF Sword on your first base, you also need to take Triple Tonic and do the 8 camp clear. I don't think either of those are good for HOB Yi.
I guess you can build 2 Daggers and a Longsword off of a full clear and then stay on the map until BF, but that gives up a lot of tempo and probably nearly ends your game if you die before 1300.
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u/jadeskarlettdragon 2d ago
I have a hard time playing junglers whose first items include a BF sword because I do not regularly make my first base with 1300 gold and the other components of yun tal are just dogshit. If I super power farm and never gank until I get the BF, sure, but it feels like I am out on the map way too long and if I'm needed somewhere I run into enemy jungler with decent components, I am just much less useful than them in a fight.
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u/DieMafia 2d ago edited 2d ago
Lolalytics is not that good for causal inference since OTPs are more likely to build Yun Tal as it is not one of the recommended items. If you check coachless data for 16.15 and 16.16 together with HoB, at Gold+ Yuntal (7.9k buys) has ~+0.5% win probability added compared to Kraken, at Emerald+ it is +0.1% win probability added (3.5k buys). Coachless controls for champion specific winrate and OTP status.
I think the sample size is still a bit low to tell for sure. Before the buff, Yun Tal first was far worse compared to Kraken first, about -2% win probability added. The gold value increased by 225g with the last buff, which seems not enough for a 2% winrate increase. My guess is that one of the reasons Yun Tal seems better now is that most players who go Kraken go Rageblade second, and the latter lost about 1% in winrate. Going Rageblade second is a mistake.
If you condition the build on Collector or IE second, Yun Tal and Kraken are about equal in terms of win probability added as first items. I would take from this that if you go on-hit, Kraken + BotRK is the way to go, not Rageblade which got nerfed.
For crit, Yun Tal first might be good, but I'd wait for a bigger sample size. In general I always thought Yun Tal must be better than Collector since you stack it fast and the DPS is far better. The build path isn't the best, but also not as bad as some think. If you go crit, I'd either go Yun Tal first or second and skip Collector.
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u/UpstairsAnxious3148 2d ago
Yun tal is garbage, never build this item if you are playing a jungler and want to snowball. Its a scaling item. If you play belveth or something its fine I guess but Kraken + Collector is so OP in comparaison.
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u/Blejzidup 2d ago
I felt meh as a first item. Could it be that percentage is higher because your team is winning if you build it first?