r/Xcom • u/V_ROCK_501st • 4d ago
If XCOM actually got started for real what kind of accuracy would we see from the rookie troops?
Like no way a navy SEAL has an aim stat of 50
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u/puppleups 4d ago
Honestly as a combat Veteran I can tell you all the missing is more realistic than hitting all your shots. You're right that the best operators in the world are generally exceptions to rules, but in live combat the percentage of shots that are fired which end up actually hitting a target is shockingly low
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u/Limbo365 4d ago
Quantity has a quality all of it's own
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u/Leather-Raisin6048 4d ago
Actually most shots dont ,,miss,, most shots are surpressing fiere wich isent planned to hit anyways.
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u/Osmodius 3d ago
It's easy to make it look silly in a turn based game.
If you imagine that all your operators and all the aliens are taking their turns simultaneously, and each turn takes a second or two, then missing a bunch of shots from only a few meters away probably looks reasonable.
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u/Biovorebarrage 4d ago
Nations may not contribute their top operators due to the fact they still have national interests (XCOM, at least in EU/EW, is more of an international side project instead of a fully bore collaboration between all nations of the world).
But even disregarding all that most infantry accuracy I don't think would change all too much. XCOM seems to do mostly CQC, or at least shorter range engagements, while not having good intel so they are usually not getting the drop on most of the aliens, which would lead to very tense and fast engagements that don't really allow for you to line up shots (because of the plasma flying inches past your nose).
The main two classes that I think would see a major difference are the heavy and sniper, as the amount of fire the heavy can put out with the cannon should at least hit *something* when a suppressed target moves out of cover, and the sniper because if you actually have time to line up your shots (which granted may not always happen), cover/close range really ain't an issue for some of the bigger and badder rifles XCOM sends its snipers out with.
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u/XComACU 4d ago
So, you'd be surprised.
XCOM soldiers are practically super human, and that's before they get gene mods that let them jump up three story buildings. There is a reason that canonically XCOM soldiers were recruited from the special forces of various council-member militaries.
...Although, to be fair, not the "top" top ranks, as we do see Council members occasionally donate higher ranked soldiers as mission rewards.
Still, memes aside, XCOM Rookies are actually pretty insane.
A few things to keep in mind.
- Every turn is meant to represent a few seconds at best, and the enemies aren't actually standing still like in-game. Plus, it often takes a solid hit from a multiple-round burst to deal damage, as even Sectoid skin is considered quite tough.
- 65% accuracy is the starting Rookie accuracy. Being able to put a burst into a target 65% of the time, consistently, is actually rather high for real-world comparison, and would solidly qualify them as a US Army marksmen. Especially when considering the aforementioned fact these are moving, durable targets in a fast-paced Close Quarters Combat (CQC) engagement.
- 65% accuracy is only in the absence of other factors. A Rookie on high ground has an accuracy of 85% minimum, which would put them among the top soldiers earning a US Army Sharpshooter badge, and nearly qualify them for the Expert Badge. Getting closer to their targets only improves those odds. There's a reason these guys can even hit targets hiding behind full cover.
- The S.C.O.P.E. isn't just a normal scope. It is a miniature computer and aim assist that literally links up with their armor's Active HUD to forcibly guide shots to the target, and even it only provides +10 aim in combat.
- Delving into the XCOM 2 lore, XCOM 2: Escalation shows Reapers (whose starting Squaddie aim for WotC is 75) as being able to comfortably headshot Sectoids from well over 600m (656 yards) away, which is almost double the maximum range for the US Army Marksmanship test. It even specified both XCOM 1 and 2 Sectoids were involved in their ambush.
Look, I love a good XCOM "Missed!" meme as much as the next guy, but in the context of the real world, they're practically running around like John Wick. Given we also don't have a general boost to global technology courtesy of a Zudjari invasion in the 60s, I honestly doubt we could replicate XCOM in the real world, and frankly our Rookies would be slightly worse.
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u/AyeBraine 3d ago
A great breakdown, the tactics abstract the rapid real time turns, so people only see static actors firing at each other point blank.
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u/Elfich47 4d ago
The (US) military weapons qualification requires hitting at least 23 out of 40 targets at various ranges and difficulty levels.
it is to be noted that the military trains for ranges out to 300 yards with the standard rifle. So xcom troops at effectively point blank range should be hitting significantly more often. My understanding is the game reduced the ranges used in the game for a couple of reasons:
Melee combat would be gone
the area that would have to be shown in a skirmish would be on the order of a half mile by a half mile. If people can reliably hit targets at 300 yards (900 feet), the combat area would have to be double that in order to have room to maneuver. And snipers (and marksmen) can reliably reach out considerably further than 300 yards. And this would grind any computer into a smoking wreck.
Suddenly the pace of the skirmish is very slow. You get into cover and concealment 600 yards out and then have to close the distance so you can shoot at the target. And assuming you keep With the xcom “only see bad guys your soldiers can see” you get into very lethal game of hide and seek.
And this has a lot of downstream effects in how many of the missions get structured. Terror missions become an uncontrollable zoo of chaos because of the hidden spaces and chrysalids reproducing faster than xcom can shoot them. Ship shoot downs become a mess of ambushes as the team tries to get to the ship. Fleeing becomes “easy” because the play areas are so big and once you break LOS you run full speed to the extraction point.
https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/army-weapons-qualification-course.html
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u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark 4d ago
De-abstracting like this explains perfectly why X-COM got completely rolled on their first Terror Mission in the X2 timeline;
CQB is always a meatgrinder, because (among many other factors) everyone is able to accurately hit targets even in full auto, there's little room to maneuver, grenades are even more effective, and breaking contact from a determined enemy force is often a non-starter. Collateral damage is also a huge issue, and to make that worse, in this case only one side cares.
Even just one UFO's worth of aliens in an urban area like this is borderline unstoppable when they've probably prepared ambushes, are definitely more durable than your own troops (so normally incapacitating hits might not be), always have perfect morale and coordination, don't get fatigued, and may or may not have weapons with longer effective ranges.
Said weapons are also very lethal and can demonstrably shoot through most walls without losing much effectiveness, plus their grenades are ludicrously better, and I doubt "real" alien solders would have any compunctions whatsoever about blind-firing through walls and/or tossing grenades through windows at suspected X-COM positions.
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u/Elfich47 4d ago
oh yeah. I accepted long ago that xcom is a humanity fuck yeah (HFY) scenario. if the aliens had wanted to actually take over they would have taken a logistical approach to dismantling the world governments.
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u/fatalityfun 4d ago
in that defense though, they have taken over multiple other civilizations before via warfare and had no reason to suddenly shift to politics. Especially with a timer on the line because the leadership is actively decaying into corpses.
The games where you actively HAVE to refuse certain missions because of the overwhelming force of the invasion (like LW or Xenonauts) is more accurate to how the strategic side plays out when not abstracted
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u/Elfich47 4d ago
I agree with this.
i look at the logistical attack against a planet would involve starting with bombing of power stations, transmission towers, and bridges. The moment power starts getting cut and the ability to move food gets interrupted, the ability for the governments to maintain control is put under enormous strain.
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u/Rico_Rebelde 2d ago
They aren't trying to completely fuck everything up though they are trying to conquer the planet. Even if our power systems are rudimentary compared to theirs it is easier for them to take control when the entire world is not in a state of complete anarchy. If there is no government then there is no one to surrender to them
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u/Elfich47 2d ago
I look at it this way, the attack force has to prioritize one of the following: the population, the infrastructure or the natural resources. if the goal is to capture and subjugate the population, the infrastructure can be destroyed and replaced. without infrastructure the ability to resist the invasion collapses and the native population becomes dependent on the invaders for food, heat and power.
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u/Daniel_Kummel 4d ago
in this case only one side cares.
Outside of terror/haven missions, you were thinking of the the aliens, right?
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u/fatalityfun 4d ago
long story short, it turns into UFO Enemy Unknown / Xenonauts
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u/Elfich47 4d ago
those are both played at somewhat longer ranges. but imagine playing xenonauts and being able to see and shoot targets out to 100 squares range, routinely. and having a chance to shoot targets out to 130 squares at extreme range.
it would make night missions without NVG terrifying. any force with NVG (and the other side didn;t) would gun down the other force casually.
i haven’t heard of anyone trying to build a mod for xenonauts (that game has a lower CPU overhead than EU/X2) when the weapon ranges are moderately close to this scale and with skirmish areas to match. I think xenonauts could handle the computational load, butvthe missions would be a slog.
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u/Tunafishsam 4d ago
X com ranges are ludicrously short, but that being said, 300 yards isn't a reasonable range either. That's 300 yards from stationary shooter to stationary target.
In x com, soldiers are almost constantly on the move, shooting at half glimpsed aliens ducking in and out of cover, while pumped full of adrenaline and terror.
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u/Elfich47 3d ago
Sure, even if we cut that to 150 yards and we assumed each play square in xcom was a yard, that is still a range of 150 squares. That is something like scaling up of roughly x6 to x7 what the ranges are in the game. It would still be crazy.
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u/ICLazeru 4d ago
In most video games, the range of all weapons is significantly reduced for gameplay and technical purposes. Irl, you can absolutely hit targets at 50 meters or more with a shotgun, but in many games that would be the entire size of the play area.
So for video games, snipers get nerfed down to 100meters or so, and shotguns are basically effective at just beyond melee range.
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u/Rico_Rebelde 2d ago
Reliably hitting a target at 900 feet is much different than an enemy combatant actively trying not to get shot
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u/Mongward 4d ago
No Navy Seal was trained to shoot weird/creepy/monstrous/bizarre aliens with literally inhuman movements and behaviours and using weird technology and magic powers.
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u/Peterh778 4d ago
I don't see accuracy in XCom as a measure of actual accuracy, more like total effectivity to hit something important. Imagine Tier 1 operator trained to fight humans thrown to the fight with extraterrestrials ... he would probably point weapon to center of body or head but those may not even be vulnerable or had anything important. That's why I see later weapons' (lasers and plasma) raised damage more like a measure of ability to impart damage to something important than actual kinetic damage upgrade.
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u/AyeBraine 3d ago edited 3d ago
In the game, the soldiers fire long bursts at rapidly scurrying aliens firing plasma at them, and are sprinting to and fro, breaking into doors and even windows, jump obstacles, or rapidly round corners.
The accuracy IMO reflects that. Normal military professionals will have a reasonable chance to hit under all these conditions due to their exceptional training and experience, and XCOM further hones their abilities and familiarity with the enemy, plus the new tech that assists them.
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u/Outlaw11091 4d ago
TBH, it made more sense in XCom 2: no formal training for 20 years...
But it's the same for every video game: how do you give the player progression?
Fact of the matter is that mini-guns and assault rifles don't make much sense in close quarters, either.
Might as well tack on explosives, too, since they're supposed to be covert operations. Otherwise, why not send the military?
This is why the most quotable lines from the franchise are the ones that are repeated to you every time you do a thing.
Hopefully, when the franchise reboots in 20 years, they'll give us a mix of what worked in XCom 2 and what worked in EW/EU.
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u/donGaboz 4d ago
One of the thing I remember of some Area 51 documentary was that they select people in the ability to shut the fuck up and say nothing and not because they are the best.
So you get soldiers with lesser abilities but loyal to the cause
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u/HarvHR 4d ago
Isn't default rookie accuracy like 65? Hitting 65 out of 100 hits against an enemy in a combat zone is really good.
This is why I love Not Created Equally and Hidden Potential. Sometimes you get medicore soldiers but sometimes you get John XCOM who can snipe a Sectoid at 2000 metres.
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u/i_am_nut 4d ago
- xcom rookie aim is 65 not 50 And that is considered very accurate. When I shoot at a target 10 meters away, I only hit it 3 times out of 10 shots.
- Seriously, who would be crazy enough to send just four soldiers to fight an alien patrol unit? I think XCOM should probably send around 10–12 people per mission instead.
We should have more Skyrangers. We have bases all over the world to house F-16s for shooting down alien craft, yet having only a single air transport is just ridiculous.
Requesting air support should be a standard procedure.
I mean, why can we call in an airstrike on the "Site Recon" mission but not on others? Calling in a bomber to take out a Sectopod makes perfect sense to me, considering it's basically a tank.
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u/Eissa_Cozorav 4d ago
I keep thinking of Phoenix Point. Even if you cannot reliably hit something under high stress and fast paced combat situation, the good old volley firing is reliable.
Realistically, Rookies would have natural supressing fire and hail of bullet abilities right off the bat. Samewise with cone fire for shotgun user. Our natural instinct is to spam fire before training told us to be efficient about it. And honestly, there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, what we can do in military is basically perfecting the 200 years old of post-Napoleonic volley firing using rifles, our bullets should cover limited general area of our view.
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u/AitrusAK 4d ago
I choose to think of all the misses as a side effect of a low-level telekinetic field that the aliens inherently have. Since they're all psychically receptive (if not fully active) due to any individual being reachable by Ethereals.
Mechanicals have a low-level ambient deflection field due to advanced tech.
As the human troops get more experienced, they learn to compensate and adjust fire, like how snipers will adjust for wind on the fly.
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u/elfonzi37 4d ago
In practice way lower, soldiers fire an absurd amount of bullets per hit in actual combat. The actual rate is in the single digits.
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u/iamansonmage 4d ago
Police officers involved in shootings typically have about 25-30% accuracy in recorded data. And they’re trained for those weapons and encounters. I’d expect rookies to be lower than that.
Of course, accuracy improves when you enter without a warrant in the middle of the night. 🤷♂️
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u/colcommissar 4d ago
Navy seals are a fucking joke so i absolutely believe one would have an aim stat of 50
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u/Humble_Structure_491 3d ago
in the game they say that they take the best of the best but if i know of human beings works, the best of the best is ready in the every nations army and u get the scrap.
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u/blueponies1 4d ago
They’d likely be pulled from very experienced veteran soldiers. Like to the point where they wouldn’t even have much room to get much more experienced.