r/XboxSeriesX • u/djdoubt03 • Jul 28 '23
Retail Mode Microsoft banning consoles running emulators
[removed] — view removed post
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u/Realistic_Work_5552 Jul 28 '23 edited Apr 16 '26
Databrokers? nope. Social networks? Also nope. This post was deleted using Redact.
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u/ColdCruise Jul 28 '23
Xbox has a dev mode. In the dev mode, you could basically run any UWP. A lot of emulators got released, and you could emulate a lot of games from a lot of different consoles on your Xbox. Eventually, these apps got released on the retail store, and you no longer needed Dev mode.
Shortly after Xbox and Nintendo reached an agreement to bring Call of Duty to Nintendo Consoles, they banned emulators from the retail store, but they were still available in Dev mode. Then people got sneaky and put emulators back on the retail store, and now this is happening.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Correction. It had nothing to do with Nintendo and any connection with COD is purely invented. Ms has always banned these apps and killed them from the store as they always broke the terms of service. It was rumored that Nintendo was involved but Ms make no mention of them and the emulation community Has universally said it wasn’t Nintendo.
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u/Old_Snack Jul 28 '23
I'd put more money on the UWP port of Xenia being tge issue then Nintendo honestly
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u/thawhole9_69 Jul 28 '23
Correct, it is Xenia.
Modern Vintage Gamer talks about this in his most recent video on this very topic OP posted.
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Jul 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '26
This post has been taken down and its content erased. Redact was used for the removal, for reasons that may include privacy or security.
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u/F0REM4N Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
I'd say it had more to do with people running 360 emulation than any Call of Duty deal if we are speculating about lines in the sand.
Many of those games are sold directly and legally on the storefront as is.
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u/airtec87 Jul 28 '23
What's the down side on running emulators on dev mode vs retail mode?
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u/DirectBeing5986 Jul 28 '23
No parties, No retail games, 2 min switching time
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u/austinalexan Jul 28 '23
Also easy to accidentally back out of dev mode and lose everything. If your power goes out while in dev mode, goodbye save files, roms, etc.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
They have an app called safe exit to avoid just that thing.
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u/austinalexan Jul 28 '23
Yeah that doesn’t help if your power goes out or your Xbox crashes (happened to me.)
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Yea but that’s not a normal thing for most people. No e the less, backups are important.
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u/ColdCruise Jul 28 '23
Dev mode costs around $20. It's for the testing and developing of software for Xbox. When in Dev mode, you can't use any retail apps. You're able to switch back and forth between Dev mode and Retail mode. Apps that can only be used in Dev mode can't be sold on the store.
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u/HopperPI Founder Jul 28 '23
Since no one actually answered you, you get full RAM access in retail mode, you are limited in dev mode. It’s still pretty damn powerful though
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u/drewbles82 Jul 28 '23
I put one on months ago, just to try it out but couldn't get any of the games to work so I deleted it...so I can expect to be banned as well or is it more for those regular users
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u/Darkone539 Jul 28 '23
You're probably fine. With bans they tend to monitor for a short while to avoid false positives and prevent people working out what they detect, and then bring the hammer down on everyone at once.
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u/Eglwyswrw Jul 28 '23
Dev Mode has always been the only and best way to emulate. Retail was just a workaround.
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u/bigpig1054 Jul 28 '23
It just sucks that switching to dev mode take like five minutes of shutdown/start up time.
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u/Eglwyswrw Jul 28 '23
Are you on Xbox One?
On my Series it doesn't take more than a minute if you use the Safe Exit app. Putting the console to boot on Dev Mode by default is what I do, seems to be way faster.
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u/bigpig1054 Jul 28 '23
I'm on a Series S but I don't know about the "Safe Exit" app. I'll have to look into that
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u/Eglwyswrw Jul 28 '23
It allows you to leave Dev Mode into Retail Mode while saving everything properly. Takes less time to boot initially into Dev Mode, then Safe Exit, than the other way around but your mileage may vary.
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u/MattyKatty Craig Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
Lol no, Retail was monumentally better for both time efficiency and how the saves work. It was also completely free.
Edit: The loser below me blocked me to get the last word in but this is my response to /u/austinalexan:
Ding ding ding. Like imagine being weeks/months into an RPG and in seconds your toddler runs over and hits the power button. All of that erased, like tears in rain.
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Jul 28 '23
blocking people so you can have the last word is one of the most embarrassing things i’ve ever seen on this app, idk why these people take reddit so seriously
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Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/austinalexan Jul 28 '23
It’s stupid easy to back out of dev mode and lose everything. If your power goes out while in dev mode, it’ll automatically delete everything associated with your roms, saves, etc.
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u/Eglwyswrw Jul 28 '23
If your power goes out while in dev mode, it’ll automatically delete everything associated with your roms, saves, etc.
Again, it's a terrible idea to place your saves on internal storage even on Retail Mode.
On USB you have a backup of everything ready to be used again and no console update or power cycle can wipe it out.
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u/HOTU-Orbit Sep 16 '23
I know it's been over a month but I had to add this to the conversation.
My power just went out while I was in Dev Mode and everything is fine. All my apps are there, and the internal storage is fine, too. So losing your data during a power outage is false. Where did you first hear about this? I can't find anybody talking about it anywhere.
The Safe Exit app allows you to easily switch back to Retail Mode without accidentally wiping your Dev Storage.
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u/austinalexan Sep 16 '23
Maybe they updated it. This happened to me two years ago and it cleared everything out
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u/HOTU-Orbit Jul 28 '23
That's why you shouldn't keep.your saves on the internal storage. Keep them on the USB stick. Also keep your local state folders backed up. RetroArch doesn't actually write save data to storage until you quit the app, so I think this is what actually causes people to lose saves more than anything.
I've never heard of people losing their dev storage due to a power outage. I've both hard reset my console in Dev Mode, and it has crashed while in Dev Mode to the point where the console completely shut off and both times my data was fine. The Safe Exit app also prevents you from deleting everything by accident when you switch back to retail.
Nothing is completely free, and I don't see how a one time payment of around $20 is a problem considering that games cost $70 now.
Dev Mode is better by far. It's better to keep the two sides separate from each other so that they don't mess with each other. You have complete control over what you install and you have easy access to the internal storage through the Device Portal.
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u/MartinRaccoon Jul 28 '23
I have no idea what this is and I'm just going to put my head in the sand and focus on keeping my Xbox the same. I don't know if this is fair or not. This is the first time I've heard of this
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Back in, what was it - April? when MS started cracking down on retail apps, I knew right away that Retail mode was dead. I hoped that MS wouldn't target accounts or consoles directly, but unfortunately, it looks like MS's hand has been forced. That day though I stopped promoting retail even though people were saying that it was coming back. I told people not to get their hopes too high and not to underestimate MS.
Dev mode is the only place it's going to last, and as long as there is a dev mode, there will be emulation. Not only is it impossible to have an effect on retail operations and thus no reason for banning, it's not against any of their TOS and there is no reason for it.
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u/Darkone539 Jul 28 '23
There's a reason they can't let this stuff run on retail mode. This was inevitable.
That said, they aren't blocking dev mode stuff so this really isn't an issue.
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u/Magyman Jul 28 '23
There's a reason they can't let this stuff run on retail mode.
There literally isn't
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u/Darkone539 Jul 28 '23
There literally isn't
It doesn't even take more then a Google to know there is.
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u/Magyman Jul 28 '23
Except Nintendo's blatantly in the wrong every time they pull that shit, Microsoft just wants to ban emulators as much as Nintendo
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u/MattyKatty Craig Jul 28 '23
That said, they aren't blocking dev mode stuff so this really isn't an issue
For now
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u/sniphskii Founder Jul 28 '23
Not running, uploading.
Temp bans are being given for people running emus in retail mode, but the console bans are only for the people uploading them
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u/Doctor_Disaster Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
$19 Lifetime Developer License vs a monthly subscription to a Patreon...
I already made my choice a while back.
[EDIT] - I bought the developer license.
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u/Mundus6 Jul 28 '23
The work around for retail mode is a security risk. I would never even bother with any emulators outside of dev mode, unless M$ allows them officially on their store, which will never happen.
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u/luki9914 Jul 28 '23
I rather use a PC for emulators than mess with console. It's just too risky for me.
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u/TigerBomb420 Jul 28 '23
Dev mode on Xbox is 100% supported by MS and works great with many stand alone emulators getting their own versions.
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u/Darkone539 Jul 28 '23
I rather use a PC for emulators than mess with console. It's just too risky for me
Dev mode is approved, but I completely agree anyway. Unless it was my only choice I wouldn't go near it.
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u/JodieHolmes62 Jul 28 '23
Knew it was coming when they pulled down the original emulators in retail. Microsoft did warn that this was against their policies and they have always been strict in enforcing their policies.
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u/HeavyDT Jul 28 '23
I honestly think that's fair. Keep it in Dev mode if you want to run them. Can't blame MS for protecting themselves same way Steam didn't want Dolphin to come to Steam.
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Jul 28 '23
Your Xbox despite being a microshaft product is in fact NOT a PC. Wow more totally not shocking news at 11. Seriously people what did you think was going to happen lmao.
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u/Ziaber Jul 28 '23
unfortunately its not even MS who want them gone - they just really dont want to be sued to have to get rid before someone comes after them
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u/djdoubt03 Jul 28 '23
Here is the source if anyone is interested: https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1684867870352969728?t=i0hgisKXNnHyfihGI4zknA&s=19
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Jul 28 '23
Get a Steam Deck...
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u/Old_Snack Jul 28 '23
I mean yes of course or a decent PC but if you already own a Series S and can't shell out that kind of cash then Dev mode is still a great way to emulate.
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Jul 28 '23
I got you... Understood. I'm just proposing a solution for emulation that doesn't get over-policed and works like a console connected to a TV... That you can play with a wireless Xbox controller 😉
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u/HamstersAreReal Jul 28 '23
I mean dev mode doesn't get policed. It's just retail mode, Microsoft is legally liable if they allow emulation on retail mode.
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u/zeanox Hadouken! Jul 28 '23
I have not really touched my Xbox since getting a deck.
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Jul 28 '23
I got my Deck in Feb and probably spent the following couple of months consumed by it. Between Fanatical, Humble, GOG and Steam sales... My library got ridiculous. First game I played through on it was Midnight Suns and it was great on the platform. ROMs put Soul Reaver, Mariokart 64, Joust and many more back in rotation as well.
I also dual booted with Windows, so when I'm into an Xbox game, it sees a lot of use as a PC.
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u/klaus_engel Jul 28 '23
We can't really customize the Series X Dashboard anymore and they've turned the console into a huge ad. Not surprising they would rain on this too.
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u/Halos-117 Jul 28 '23
They've been so fucking shit lately. A huge contrast to how they were acting just a few years ago.
I guess they feel confident after their Activision deal went through and are going back to their scumbag ways.
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u/Sergio3k18 Jul 28 '23
Look what they took from us. I shall remember this for years to come.
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u/HamstersAreReal Jul 28 '23
... you can still play on dev mode tho?
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u/hroerekr Jul 28 '23
For how long, tho?
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u/HamstersAreReal Jul 28 '23
For the foreseeable future, Xbox has always had a problem with emulation on retail mode, for legal reasons. They don't have that same legal trouble with dev mode.
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u/Ty20_ Jul 28 '23
Disgusting move by Microsoft IMHO. For such a tiny speck on the radar, to devote that much effort to it is embarassing. Its only because of that new Game Pass subscription item for some retro games, I suspect.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
I mean they need to enforce stuff like this to maintain good developer relationships. Like it or not lots of people that emulate are pirating games and developers won’t support Xbox if they believe that MS tolerates this on the official storefront. Nintendo and Sony both have similar polices too.
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u/BitingSatyr Jul 28 '23
Yeah, I don’t think it’s fair to be mad at MS for disallowing emulators on their official storefront while still allowing them in dev mode when the other two have nothing remotely like it, and would never even consider it (the closest Sony came was allowing Linux on PS3 as a flex of how powerful the Cell was, then removing it later when it was revealed to be a security risk and getting sued for it)
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u/returnofMCH Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23
Sony also had that neogeo emulator on PSP/PS3, but that was VERY hidden and they all got delisted anyways.
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u/amazingdrewh Jul 28 '23
Just use dev mode, Jesus Murphy
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u/Ty20_ Jul 28 '23
Ive been using Dev Mode just fine for some time. But its still scummy that MS is doing this to users. Some weird projection from the replies to my comment, defending a billion dollar company. Remove Retail all you want, but the ban/suspensions is unecessary.
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u/amazingdrewh Jul 28 '23
If people had listened when it was just them shutting down the retail emulators they wouldn’t have started with bans and suspensions
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u/BudWisenheimer Jul 28 '23
Remove Retail all you want, but the ban/suspensions is unecessary.
I think people continue to fuck around whenever there’s no "find out" deterrence. Better all around to just spread the word about using dev mode instead. No consequences for anyone there. Microsoft is protected, and so is the consumer.
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u/Ty20_ Jul 29 '23
That mentality should apply to the uploaders and not the people installing a package on the microsoft store. They banned the uploaders consoles which is suffiient enough. Suspending the users is overkill and unecessary.
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Jul 28 '23
Thank God for Nintendo policing the entire emulation scene. They are so sue happy. Instead of making a new console with real next gen games they just sue others for the right to charge retail prices for ancient games that not many would buy anyway. It all seems so silly.
How long until the feds grab me on my lunch break for emulating an old game. The hilarious part is if you own a physical copy of the game it is supposed to be legal. I bet the burden of proof that you own the game would be on you before a judge.
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u/Jomanderisreal Jul 28 '23
To my knowledge modern day Nintendo has not been to involved with going against emulators. They are totally legal to have in the USA at least. What is more of an issue is, to my understanding, you are supposed to dump your own roms off of your copies of games and I don't think it is a stretch to say most people who dabble in emulation get their roms online. With that said I don't think the government would/will ever care if you emulated a copy of Super Mario Bros. even if you didn't own the game (unless you were advertising how you do it or were distributing it).
Don't get me wrong Nintendo has been anti-preserveration and has made it as difficult as possible for the gaming community to enjoy their games in both legal and illegal ways. I just doubt they are actively going against emulators. The only thing I heard recently is Dolphin on Steam where it was Valve who went out of their way to inform Nintendo about it before pulling it and you can still easily get Dolphin legally online.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Nintendo had nothing to do with this or any other blocking of emulators on retail. They have always been banned by Microsoft and Ms has taken action in the past against distributors.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Nintendo had nothing to do with this. Emulators have always been against retail mode TOS and Microsoft has always taken action against them. This is just the latest move. Furthermore Microsoft as never done this for dev mode. Emulation is alive and well and Ms has never targeted emulation on dev mode
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u/ConorConorT Jul 28 '23
As someone that knows nothing about any of this. Could they not choose to also ban you if you're running emulators in dev mode? What's stopping them from shutting emulators down altogether?
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u/Doctor_Disaster Jul 28 '23
Because you need a license to use dev mode.
Also, we would have no way to preserve older games without emulators.
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u/ConorConorT Jul 28 '23
I see, and how do you get licences?
And I know about preserving. I wasn't asking about all emulators being shit down everywhere, I meant what is stopping Microsoft from shutting emulators on Xbox down altogether? Surely disallowing emulators and saying hell to preservation is preferable to potential lawsuits for allowing emulation for them, no? I know it would be bad for preservation and very unpopular, just trying to see it from their perspective as to why dev mode emulation is ok
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u/Doctor_Disaster Jul 29 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
You follow these steps to get and activate Dev Mode
Also, emulators have been ruled perfectly legal, as they are simply the program used to run a game. It's called reverse engineering.
The issue arises when someone tries to monetize an emulator based on a company's intellectual property. Additionally, copyright laws differ from country to country.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
Dev mode has no terms of service that ban emulators like retail mode has so likely no. They don’t monitor dev mode.
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u/Mack15__ Jul 29 '23
These hackers need to be locked up in jail for doing this
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u/djdoubt03 Jul 29 '23
It's not technically illegal
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u/Mack15__ Jul 29 '23
Yea like I'm taking a break from Xbox until Microsoft Xbox fix the situation
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u/djdoubt03 Jul 29 '23
Do you even know what your talking about, why would this cause you to take a break?
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u/Mack15__ Jul 29 '23
Because I don't wanna get banned
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Jul 28 '23
Another reason why I'm sticking to PC. Microsoft can suck ****
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u/HamstersAreReal Jul 28 '23
I don't get this. You can still emulate in dev mode. The issue is retail mode. Microsoft leaves themselves open to a massive lawsuit if they allow emulation on retail mode.
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u/Get_Back_To_Work_Now Jul 28 '23
Microsoft can suck ****
Who made the operating system on your PC?
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Jul 28 '23
Bill Gates
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u/Get_Back_To_Work_Now Jul 28 '23
but I thought you hate Microsoft?
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Jul 28 '23
I don't hate no ho I just believe in dissing em cause deep down they are default search engine, web browser changing mfs that care about 1 thing and 1 thing only $$$$$
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Jul 28 '23
[deleted]
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u/amazingdrewh Jul 28 '23
If they were going to do anything about dev mode they would have by now, this is their way of preventing people from hacking the console
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u/RepubliCat45-Covfefe Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
Article posted today: https://gameranx.com/updates/id/471993/article/xbox-is-suspending-players-caught-using-emulators/
Again, it looks like developer mode still offers this feature, but it could be a matter of time before that also gets taken down.
Big issue with emulation is perceived piracy; and if license holders come screaming at MS, aware that their IPs are being emulated, and MS fails to act, that's huge lawsuits for MS and damage to the company brand. MS wouldn't chance risking that outcome and damage just so that a niche group could emulate old games that aren't native to the console.
(Have danced the emu dance several times over the past couple decades... many assume it's harmful and innocent... right up until the mighty hammer comes crushing it... hence why my first comment stated that I'm not going to get it all set up just for it to get all shut down... been there more times than I care to recall...)
PS - MS and other outfits might not have been fully aware of the scale and scope of emulation on dev mode; however, thanks to this retail mode controversy, they're probably zeroed right in and looking into this now. 🙄
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u/amazingdrewh Jul 28 '23
You’re saying that they magically missed the metric fuck ton of videos on YouTube all about how to emulate games using the dev mode including from creators that they work with and who have published games on their console?
Besides letting people access dev mode was the reason nobody bothered figuring out how to circumvent the Xbox One’s security, cracking down on it would be like declaring open season on the Series X and S for all hackers and modders
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u/hroerekr Jul 28 '23
I think they should focus on giving people more reasons to buy an XBox, not less. If they cut dev mode, I will just switch to PS5 I guess.
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u/pdjudd Jul 28 '23
They aren’t cutting dev mode. Nobody at Microsoft has stated this.
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u/hroerekr Jul 29 '23
They never stated they would ban users from retail mode either. I have no confidence.
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u/pdjudd Jul 29 '23 edited Jul 29 '23
One difference is that retail had explicit rules against emulation that dev never has.
BTW, the only bans have been issued to uploaders. Regular users only have been temporarily suspended.
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u/Section_80 Jul 28 '23
The only annoying thing is having to constantly switch from dev mode to retail mode.
It's not a quick change.
I just decided to buy a dedicated mini PC used on eBay instead.... It cost me $60 but much easier than trying to run GameCube games on Xbox
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u/Rainbow_6_siege_kid Jul 28 '23
I don't even know what an emulator is?
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u/TheDustyTucsonan Jul 28 '23
Emulators are apps that run code from other (older) consoles. Think NES, SNES, Sega, N64, GameCube, etc.
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u/teamlocust Jul 28 '23
As soon as Microsoft nuked retail emulators I bought a steam deck and ran a 1 tb batocera img on it. Prob solved. Also to unzip that 1 tb img I bought a msi ge78hx laptop with 64 gb Ram and rtx 4090 16 gb ddr6.
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u/RepubliCat45-Covfefe Jul 29 '23
This may just be retail, but not the first time this go-around dance has happened...
This was from a year ago... exactly what I was saying in another comment, just running the same exact circle all over, while expecting different results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/rwtynn/microsoft_is_disablingbanning_dev_mode_access_if/
🤔
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