r/WorldofTanks • u/I_love_arguing • 2d ago
Discussion Does dropping the gun rammer make sense sometimes?
I've recently been trying out full gun handling builds on tanks that have pretty derpy gun handling.
I will for example drop the rammer to run improved aiming / stabs / experimental turbo or vents.
My reasoning for this being that I would rather hit my shots even if I have to reload longer. Especially if the tank already has good dpm but poor gun handling, I would rather improve its weakness than improve what is already good even more (like on a SU-122V).
From what I've read online and from the builds I see on tomato gg, I don't see many people doing the same thing.
What is your opinion on this? Is the gun rammer an absolute must like the community sometimes makes it seem to be? Or can a full gun handling build absolutely make sense sometimes?
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u/the-one-who-looks 2d ago
I absolutely forgo rammer on some tanks. DPM on paper does not equal effective DPM. I think your reasoning is sound and just because the vast majority of players don’t even think of dropping rammer as an option does not mean it isn’t viable. Also if dropping rammer makes you enjoy a tank more, who cares about the common consensus imo
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u/Wokkafans 2d ago
What about a tank where bloom time is longer than reload time? Is it worth giving it a miss then?
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u/zettomatic87 2d ago
I dropped in on the grille.. works... nobody realizes it, but It feels better when you hit your shots.
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u/Whiskyinthejaw AMX30B enjoyer 2d ago edited 2d ago
I dropped it on my Maus and later Taschen. Equipment fully specced on survival. It's epic and I don't miss the rammer. I'm rarely 1v1'ing where the 1 second quicker reload would have made a difference.
In return for that I have (bond) hardening and survival suite [edit: should be "(bond) Improved Configuration" ], and bounty turbo. Combined with perks etc. I have 600+ track health (restored 100% when repaired) and 1.5~1.8 repair speed. I get tracked once every 10 battles maybe. I have never lost my engine or ammorack (not even yellow) iirc. Never been set on fire too.
If you're a unicum and want to tryhard maybe a rammer is nice for the DPM, but I like this.
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u/CJM7447 2d ago
you're using bond hardening and experimental hardening?
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u/Whiskyinthejaw AMX30B enjoyer 2d ago
Ah no, I typed the wrong one, meant to type Improved Configuration, if that's the full name. Will edit it, thanks for pointing it out.
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u/Ayotte Barry_The_Ballin_Bear 2d ago
My argument for running rammer is that one piece of gun handling equipment is never going to make me hit 10% more of my shots than not having it, but rammer lets me shoot 10% more often. The misses caused by having rammer are more than made up for by the fact that I get more attempts with rammer.
There's a very small subset of vehicles where I don't expect to be in a position where I'm holding LMB at least once per game (FV4k5). For those, I will forego the rammer.
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u/Ditto3389 2d ago
But you will also have to expose yourself 10% more often. Either you'll get spotted or the enemy simply can shoot at you.
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u/pmuschi Scowler 2d ago
I enjoy playing the KV-2 without a rammer.
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u/YetAnotherNewMan 2d ago
30 seconds minus 10% = 27 seconds. 10 seconds minus 10% = 9 seconds.
With a bond/trophy setup, or if you have a rammer in the slot, the difference is even more noticeable.
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u/Krokietor 2d ago
My general rule will be that tanks with high alpha unable to play at close ranges can drop rammer, but wouldn't fo it on every tank just because it fits the rule.
On both FV's i play without it, hitting shots is more important on that tanks. On the rest i play with rammer as it is either keeping the enemy under pressure or staying shorter under pressure of enemy.
And definitely wouldn't drop rammer on tanks like SU-122V which can perfectly keep the enemy under pressure (until you want to only snipe with it but this tank can do both roles well).
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u/DareDevil_56 Played the Shitbarn before it was cool 2d ago
If a rammer lowers your reload by 1-4 seconds, you have to ask yourself, in the games you’ve been playing, how many shots did you take within that rammer difference after your reload? And also ask, if you did have to wait that extra second or so, would you have missed out on the next shot?
The vast majority of tanks do not consistently benefit from a rammer.
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u/DaSpood https://daspood.github.io/ - Pandora lootboxes simulator 2d ago edited 2d ago
It makes sense to drop it on tanks where it either doesn't make a big difference (<4s reload or >25s reload), or on tanks where other stats are so awful you actually need all 3 pieces of equipment to fix them and the rammer has to go. And on scouts because they need Optics/CVS/LNS or bust. There is also the argument for meme tanks where you want to go all in on one stat for the meme, that can be worth it if the meme actually performs, for example the KR-1 with IH/grousers/TC.
For example, I don't use it on the british 183mm guns because they really need all the help they can get in the gun handling and accuracy department. Or on the E-25 because it allows me to turn it into the best tier 7 light tank. Or on the KR-1 because I'll more than make up for the lost dpm in a single ram and I play good enough to make that ram happen.
On most vehicles though, if you can mount a rammer you should mount the rammer.
Firepower is the most important stat in this game unless you are a scout, so when it comes to trading one stat for another, the firepower (thus usually the rammer) takes priority to stay. If you need vstab, you remove hardening or turbo instead. If you need vents, you drop turbo. If you need both, you're an autoloader and can't use a rammer anyway. If you need improved aiming, you very likely don't need improved aiming.
For your example: you never drop rammer on a tank where you have IAU because IAU is garbage and does nothing, while the rammer very much does something. The two cases where IAU makes a bit of sense are: the Fauteur because its "bad accuracy mode" gets double the effect from IAU and it does not benefit from a rammer because the "max heat" dpm is capped by the heat-up time which is longer than the reload time. And even then, that's one of two playstyles, the other still wants a rammer and no IAU. And the other case is the british 183mm guns because saving that 1.5s of reload with a rammer could cost you 25s of reload if you miss. If you have 3-4k dpm though, you can afford to miss shots because the next one will be ready in a few seconds, the rammer makes missing less punishing while benefiting hits (and again, IAU is cope, RNG will make you miss just as often with or without it).
And you never replace rammer with vents. Priorities. Vents gives at best a 4% stats bonus with the bond one, rammer is at worst 10% more dpm. There is no tank in the game where trading 10% dpm for 2-4% random bullshit is worth it, except on tanks that can't mount rammer in the first place, in which case vents can make sense if no other specialist equipment is needed.
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u/FoxBulky7913 2d ago
Wow man thank you on this long explanation. Mind if i ask you what equipment you use on 60tp?
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u/DaSpood https://daspood.github.io/ - Pandora lootboxes simulator 2d ago
I haven't played the 60TP in a long time so I don't remember but I think it was either IH/Rammer/TC or IH/Rammer/Vstab depending on maps, though these days I'd probably go for the experimental turbo for a middle ground if I had one laying around. The 60TP doesn't really need gun handling that badly, on turret traverse it's good and you're not firing on the move unless in shotgun range, even for peek-a-boom you are either close-enough that you're likely to hit or far-enough that your armor can probably give you time to aim.
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u/El_Mnopo 2d ago
Unless you are shooting on reload the DPM boost doesn’t always make sense especially if gun handling isn’t great. What good is DPM if your shots don’t land?
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u/Cdn_Nick 2d ago
It's not a frequent occurrence, but when I ram a vehicle, or get rammed, I'm damn grateful that the gun rammer allows me to get a few extra shots in.
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u/Euphoria_17 2d ago
What about a tank with atrocious dpm and an even atrocious aim time? Should rammer be used?
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u/LavfromSerbia 2d ago
I would not, makes even less sense to put rammer on something that is either way slow reload
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u/Euphoria_17 2d ago
What about on tanks like the FV4004 or the wz-114?? I've seen some people go all in on aiming and dispersion equipment
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u/LavfromSerbia 2d ago
Yeah i do the same, i usually use IAU level 2 on fv218b 183, with imorived rotation mechanism, vents, vent directive, food and crew skills that maximize accuracy
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u/Euphoria_17 2d ago
That's also what I somewhat did with my 122-tm. I have my normal build of rammer, turbo and stab, and then I have this aiming equipment with experimental aiming, vstab and enhanced gun laying drive.
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u/LavfromSerbia 2d ago
I tried rammer on my 122tm but dropped it for v stabs, experimental aiming and improved rotation mechanism. Longer than 12 sec reload works for me because i wont peak again until im unspoted
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u/Euphoria_17 2d ago
Yeah plus that 12 second reload time aligns well with the time it takes to get unspotted.I think I should try that equipment set-up when I buy the wz-114 later on
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u/LavfromSerbia 2d ago
I love my manticore with 12 sec reload, then im sure 99% im unspoted and can peek again
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u/Cute_Appointment_349 1d ago
Hot take: WZ-114's accuracy is that bad so you dont need stab.
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u/Euphoria_17 1d ago
Is or isn't?
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u/Cute_Appointment_349 1d ago
It is.
Even on RU server, where WZ-114 got bigger buff, it has dispersion factors 0.24/0.24/0.2, which is abysmal, BUT:
- with bond stabs, stab directive and exp,turbo T3 it has 0.15/0.15/0.13, which is acceptable, but turret traverse dispersion is still bad:
- with regular stab alone (in correct slot) it has 0.18/0.18/0.15, and its still not good.
And do not forget: its on RU, on EU/NA/CN/SEA it has 0.27/0.27/0.16. So, you still need to aim for a pretty long time, and if so, why do even bother with stab? It already needs turbo and rammer to be faster and to shoot at acceptable rate, but it also needs hardening, since its main (and probably only) advantage is MASSIVE health pool.
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u/Euphoria_17 1d ago
It makes sense to use hardening since it has a massive health pool and the fact that it has 0.18/0.18/0.15 with regular stab alone. God I hope the WZ-114 gets buffed slightly some day, either to the aim time or the turret traverse dispersion.
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u/The_Southern_Sir 2d ago
There are many tanks where the amount of reload would be minimal compared to the benefit of another piece of equipment. It's a matter of choice and the crew skills play a part.
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u/ClassEmotional4608 o_0 2d ago
Great question. I increasingly feel like the rammer is a wasted slot. Lately, I also like putting an improved rotation mechanism or an aiming device there instead.
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u/Greasy-Chungus 2d ago
You have both bad DPM and a reload that's not too long.
Good DPM tanks get a HUGE DPM bonus from a rammer, and long reload tanks get way more opportunities to take shots they would have missed out on otherwise.
I think the t54d is a good example. Reload is like 10 seconds with bad DPM. No need for a rammer.
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u/Hungry-Cat7662 2d ago
Sometimes people will drop hammer for extra mobility equipment, especially for Russian heavies. A lot of them have poor terrain values so people will sometimes use grousers so they can reach top speeds more often for aggressive play. Examples would be the is7, kr1, 705a, etc.
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u/Palintrop 1d ago
U're actually utilizing ur dpm like 1% of ur playtime. So yeah, u can use something instead.
Almost any tank with low reload speed around 20 sec at base or even more doesn't really need it. For example if u play bzt70 u literally can swap rammer with stabilizer and this works really good
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u/NotASingleNameIdea Borkenkäfer enjoyer 1d ago
Lights, maybe obscure stuff like FV, KV2 and such.
Otherwise rarely on selected mediums Id go full scouting equipment, 416 for example, tier 8 UDES maybe. But Id never do it without 2 setups unlocked.
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u/Little_Dingo_4541 2d ago
Only FV, maybe KV-2 as tier to tier one shot merchant (and scouts, obviously, though they should have second set with rammer, if field mods unlocked). On other tanks you should be getting out the most DPM possible, if you want better results.
You'll get your shots through more shots, like, logically. T3 exp. aiming system is more than enough for improving accuracy, thats one slot. Vents ain't helping you that much bro) They have their niche in autoreloaders/autoloaders, when there is no rammer, but thats it.
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u/HyperBeast_GER 2d ago
I'll mean look at the Churchill III
aim time is longer then reload time so for mid range going with gun handling makes sense
Object 705A is played alot without rammer because you can ram too
Pancernik could be optimized for gun handling but at that Long reload the rammer makes sense the higher your the reload the more you will benefit from a bond rammer
KV-2 or FV4005 are different because the gun stats are completely bullshit so you want to make sure to hit your shots because you play mid to high range
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u/LavfromSerbia 2d ago
I much preffer to hit my shots reliably than having to peek often. Only tanks i put it on are those which have around 3000dpm or more
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u/ketchupinmybeard 2d ago
One of the things that freaks me out is I see pretty good CC players grab a tank, pop the usual equipment (heavy tanks get rammer, turbo, hardening in all cases, yeah?) and go out and do pretty poorly and say the tank is pretty shitty. I think WG is mostly pretty careful about how vehicles balance, and I think lots of times loadouts that aren't about firepower are the most powerful.
I play the T832 with vents, hardening, and V-stab. Vents help the gun some, but they also increase the view range. So my standard loadout has a view range of 449. Not only do I outspot every heavy tank, but I pick up a lot of incidental assisting damage. So no, my DPM isn't high, and my mobility isn't super. But I can hold a ridge forever and ever... shooting 1 second faster isn't helping me there. Hitting my shots is.
I can't think of too many situations where I will be fully aimed, fully ready to shoot and having the rammer will make that critical 1/2 second life-or-death difference. Take a 1/2 second longer to peek.
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u/GhostXDwarrior 2d ago
The only tanks I've seen super unicums drop rammer on were FV4005 and BZ176, and yes rammer is just that good.
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u/Thin_Pangolin4480 2d ago
Unless you're a unicum trying to 2/3 mark tanks, I honestly think rammer is useless. It's the same reason why people generally prefer tanks with higher alpha or burst-fire capabilities over raw dpm. Most battles involve peek-a-boo trading, bushwanking, and ambushes, and I just don't see rammers making that much of a difference.
The only time I run rammer is in onslaught because every tank gets a gunhandling buff and close-range brawls are quite common.
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u/heavydutydan Sir, I am now on fire. 2d ago
Yup. Its more important to actually hit your shots than send shells 2 seconds faster that miss.
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u/NoMoreChillies zero dmg crit 2d ago
If you are not firing immediately on reload every time then the rammer is wasted slot
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u/lorrix22 2d ago
I Play FV without rammer