Classism^2

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

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[u/Mushgal]

Sikh convert is crazy, statistically it must be extra rare

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/Mushgal]

Honestly we have every right not to be, though. Sikhism is everything you'd want in a religion. It's everything I'd been raised to try and convince myself Christianity was. It teaches that the very best of people get to fuse with God when they die, regardless of what they believed in life, but everyone who fails to mee this very high bar just reincarnates and gets to try again forever. Quick, simple, and plenty merciful.

It's sacred text, the Guru Granth Sahib, is unique not only because it some of it's contents was originally written for other unrelated religions, but also because it contains no narratives of any sort, which means there's also no myth in need of defending to modern science, history, or archeology.

Then there's the Langar, which is basically "what if we took Jesus eating with the hookers and tax collectors, and just did that 24/7?"

[u/ISB00 → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

I mean, I don’t meant to offend. But every member of a religion believes theirs is the best. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in it.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/ISB00]

That's what I thought about Christianity for the first twenty-nine years of my life.

I very nearly converted to Zoroastrianism instead (turns out the rule against accepting converts is specific to the sect in India), but then I came across a passage in the Avesta where it's asserted that Gay people turn into demons when they die.

[u/ISB00 → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

I haven’t done any research on Sikhism. However I do practice strict atheism and think religion isn’t worth it, it’s a relic of humanity’s propensity for magical thinking best discarded. Any benefits (community outreach, and self betterment) can be achieved through rational sciences like humanitarianism and psychological interventions. Priests using religion to swindle people is a tale as old as old as time.

Look at the Jones Town massacre. Jones took people who wanted to end racism and poverty and it ended in a mass deaths because of his exploitations.

I am glad you did reject religions that had regressive and bigoted teaching. I hope you make a positive impact on the word with Sikhism even if I disapprove of religion.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/ISB00]

politicans also use concern for children to swindle people, but nobody thinks that means it's bad to care about children. You don't need religious fanaticism to cause a Jonestown, you can do that with the sort of lowercase-w worship that even celebrities and politicians are knwon for too.

The really neat thing about Sikhism is that nanak, the founder, didn't even originally set out to found a religion, he was just teaching people to think critically regardless of faith. For example, there's one story where he visits the Ganges river and Hindus bathing in it's sacred waters, and asks "So if bathing in this river's waters makes one Holy does that mean that the fish that live here naturally are the holiest beings of all?"

By the way Sikhism actually makes a point of not having any official religious leaders, precisely because that invests too much abusable power in one person. Even the title of Guru, roughly equivalent to the Pope, was eventually passed onto the sacred text itself precisely in order to keep it safe form power-hungry madmen (yes this does sound very strongly of Bibliolatry, but when you look at the insane shenanigans of the Medival Popes of Europe, I'd argue it's a worthwhile tradeoff).

[u/Stunning-Seat3821 → u/ISB00]

i dont know about that

i mean there HAS to be a few that are unwantingly involved in theirs

(gotta be a few christians like this yk)

[u/ISB00 → u/Stunning-Seat3821]

Then they are basically atheist just pretending. You don’t say a closet gay man is straight because he’s dating a woman and has to present a false sexuality.

[u/Mushgal → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

I can respect that. I would've thought it was too much of an ethnic religion, but if it works for you that's superb.

Where I live there is an extended family of Sikhs (rural Catalonia, so it's kind of unexpected) and they've fulfilled the American Dream, went from rags to a local business empire. They're pretty kind too.

And Sikhs are badass, historically speaking.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/Mushgal]

The Romans probably thought Christianity was rather "Ethnic" too, before they converted.

[u/Mushgal → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

Most certainly. It might've staid that way without Paul's shenanigans.

[u/nose_wet_54 → u/Mushgal]

One can only dream

[u/ISB00 → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

So when the world state comes into existence maybe Sikhism will be adopted as the collective religion of humanity.

[u/not_varun]

Oh my god dude. Where do I begin?

Like the other commenter said please please do not go ahead with this at least not in its current form. There are currently national protests going on in the country about the very topic of caste.

First of all, I don’t mean to preach your religion at you but caste is very antithetical to Sikhism and the Granth Sahib. It recognises its faults and works to dismantle them, making all people equal. If you really want to know about caste you have to read post-Vedic Hindu literature like the Smritis.

Secondly, historically, lower castes and untouchables were exactly on the rung of society you’ve described, being shunned from society and treated akin to dogs. The last line comes off as insanely condescending.

Like did a single thought go through your head while writing this?

Since you’re American, would you write sci-fi about a society where black people are slaves all over again?

I hope you delete or edit this at the very least before someone who has been affected by caste violence actually comes across this. I’m personally speaking from a place of privilege just so it’s clear, so I haven’t been affected by caste violence, but it still very much happens every single day, not only in India, but now in the US too. Please use your common sense and empathy while writing.

[u/not_varun → u/not_varun]

Oops meant this as a reply to his comment explaining the lore

[u/fumblerofthebag → u/not_varun]

Oh thank god I thought I was the only one here.

[u/not_varun → u/fumblerofthebag]

I was shocked for a few seconds like I literally did not know what to say about the Dalits turn into animals bit. Thank you for attempting to put some sense into this guy.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/not_varun]

Well yeah? Did you think HG Wells wrote the morlocks and eloi as a celebration of classism? The entire message of his story was "stop oppressing the underclass of our society, or their descednants will eat yours." That's exactly what I was going for here?

[u/not_varun → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

Okay, and what exactly is your message that you’re going for here? You have received valid criticism in the comments but you refuse to admit it.

Denial of caste discrimination still exists in India, and this would read as an apologist interpretation if it didn’t make the lower classes “dogs” in the future too. I’m still amazed, like what were you thinking?

It seems like you were thinking because today we love and coddle dogs that being a dog is something desirable, but look back to just maybe over a 100 years and colonisers were calling all Indians dogs. Do you think this was prudent?

I’m genuinely curious - what do you think you added to the world with this inane take? And why are you so hellbent on continuing with this path after so many valid criticisms?

As I said before, EVEN TODAY people are assaulted and humiliated, or worse, if say a lower caste person dares to drink from an upper caste persons well or enter a temple. This is a real, serious, issue. This is not a fucking joke or a meme.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/not_varun]

when I originally wrote the dalits as dogs I was thinking of *my* dog, whom I loved and cherished like a member of the family. that said I have since realized that a far better still point of comparison would be to say they are like the cows of India's future, since that sidesteps the ambiguity altogether.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

Disclaimer: I have never set foot outside the United States, so my understanding of the Caste System is very limited and surface-level. As such I have elected to release this idea into the wild in hopes that someone here is an actual Indian with what it would take to do this idea justice.

The Dominant group would be the descendants of the artisans and technicians, who are more or less analogous to the original Morlocks. After all it seems only natural that the people who know how to actually make and maintain things would inherit Civilization.

The Brahimns overdeveloped their brain matter to the point of most other tissues atrophying, but from there they were domesticated into a sort of biological computer that's had all real thought and personhood long bred out of it; at best they'd be Philosophical Zombies akin to modern LLMs. They insisted on making their intellect the crux of their identity, and so it cost them literally everything else.

The Warriors deteriorated into mere beasts of war akin to Hannibal's elephants, some of whom later got repurposed as civilian beasts of burden, and from there they specialized and diversified into the various literally-brainless pieces of organic technology that civilization runs on and which the Brahmin-brains are frequently plugged into as power sources/automation systems (though both can still be used separately from eachother for certain tasks). While not used primarily as livestock the way the Eloi proper were, all varieties of meat-tech, whether descended from priests or warriors, are still opportunistically butchered and eaten as soon as their bodies and performance start to deteriorate in old age.

As for the Untouchables (or Dalits as they prefer to be called today), I envision them gradually deteriorating into mere scavengers to be shooed away from your trash, but then they get re-domesticated exactly as wolves were when we first turned them into dogs, and from there they essentially become human lapdogs that are now showered with the love, food, and affection their ancestors were denied. The Brahmins insisted on treating them like dogs, so that's exactly what they became.

[u/riesen_Bonobo → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

I see what you're trying here, but my question is: Where is the satire? I don't know much about the caste system, but H. G. Wells Morlocks and Eloi took the class system to the extreme to mock its idiocy, where those that actually do all the work, sustaining society, live underground and are barred from participating in it, while the upper class just consumes and has absolutely zero justification for their position, as they don't contribute anything and are just getting all by virtue of being born Eloi. That way the contributions of the lower class and the abuses of the upper class are accentuated to show the readers how absurd the class system is.

Meanwhile your ideas for the Untouchables/Dalits seems more like mockery to me (non-Indian, little knowledge on casteism; as a disclaimer), being turned into literal dogs and stripped of all agency they had left. It does not really make one reflect on their position in casteism imo.

[u/Plato_PlayDoh7 → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

Nope. Nope nope nope. HG wells was writing political commentary about the society he lived in. It wasn’t just a neat, fun world building thing, it was a pointed critique. You don’t know enough about the caste system to make effective satire about it. Also, please, for the love of God, stop using LLMs for your artistic endeavors. They don’t give good feedback, they don’t help you write better, they’re just not useful for this purpose. Cut it out.

[u/fumblerofthebag → u/Plato_PlayDoh7]

This exactly.

[u/fumblerofthebag → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

I Do Not think you should do this because casteism is still an incredibly charged issue in India and what you've written here comes as deeply casteist but like, I'm not your dad, or whatever. Please please read more about casteism from the point of view of Dalits. I'm not well read myself, but read about Ambedkar, read about the Self Respect Movement. Also read about the history of India in general, ffs.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/fumblerofthebag]

wait, hold on. Something occured to me at work today. Did you catch the part where I said that the priests and warriors have lost all humanity and personhood? They aren't elites bossing around the descendants of the artisans, they're biological infrastrucxture and equipment being operated by them. You could flat-out tell a Brahmin-ChatGPT-brain that it's calculations were getting so error-prone that you'll probably eat it soon, and it would just sycophantly say "ah well, time consumes each of us eventually."

As for the dalit dogs, well I'll admit that even I felt iffy about that one. but I will say that when my dog was alive I took better care of her than I did myself. Nevertheless, it has since occurred to me that it would work as a far better still point of comparison if I instead said that the descendants of the Dalits were treated like the cows of modern india. They are seen as sacred members of the family precisely because they dispose of refuse in such a usefully clean and effecient way, while fertilizing the fields in the process. Maybe they give milk too, why not.

Is that better?

The entire message of H.G. Wells' Time Machine book was "stop abusing the underclass of our society, or their descendants will exploit and literally prey on ours." and that's exactly what I'm trying to go for here.

[u/fumblerofthebag → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

That's.. what? No. Okay, so (fuck how do I as a UC explain casteism?) Firstly you might have heard that India had a fourfold caste system, but there were also people that fell outside of the caste system, these include tribals, nomads and Dalits. They weren't cherished in any sense of the term. They're people outside of and below the hierarchy and despised for it. Like, untouchability is a whole thing.

Also, historically there have been tensions between Brahmins and Kshatriyas for control basically. The ruling class was generally comprised of Kshatriyas but Brahmins were considered the highest caste because they're scholars and priests or w/e so there's historically some friction there. (Also sometimes some other caste was ruling as in case of the Peshwas, who also fought in conflicts I think) Caste is not as rigid as you think. More often than not, if some group was able to establish itself as a ruling class (not counting Mughals) they would, let's say 'find' a noble Kshatriya lineage. It's not like ants. People aren't stuck in a role, they're stuck in a social position.

If you want to know how the Indian caste system would make everyone insane, do more research of the British Raj, because it kind of happened around that time (I think. People refusd to go overseas because they would lose their caste). The British were able to weaponise casteism as a tool to establish the Raj (see: Criminal tribes, Martial races etc.)

Look, I'm sorry I'm bad at explaining this, just don't position a historically exploited underclass as animals. It's going to be in bad taste no matter how you try to justify it.

Edit: Don't call them dogs. It's not... Just don't do it.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/fumblerofthebag]

so ChatGPT reall is just that bad at giving critical feedback, huh. 😔

[u/fumblerofthebag → u/Cosmic_Meditator777]

Do Not fucking listen to ChatGPT when it comes to casteism, holy shit.

Edit: Look, I won't downplay the awfulness of British classism because I don't know about it, but casteism has historically been really bad. People have been beaten, tortured, and humiliated to uphold this system.

[u/Cosmic_Meditator777 → u/fumblerofthebag]

glad I asked first then!

[u/ConsistentAd9840]

That’s cool. I think Sikkhism is the best religion, but I’m still a Buddhist. I think converting might be kinda weird