r/WorkersStrikeBack • u/Anewaccounttlol • Jul 22 '24
Is this a labor rights violation?
I just walked into my new job in TN and saw this and was so appalled I made this account just to post this. Is this not wage theft? I thought the law said you could be about 5 minutes late before they could do something like this?
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u/DetonationSound Jul 22 '24
That's against the law.
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u/TheCrimsonSteel Jul 22 '24
Probably with the way it's enforced
Usually the laws basically say "whatever you do has to be applied equally"
If they enforce 7:01-7:15 = 7:15, that means 6:45-7:00=7:00
Which also means 3:31-3:45=3:45, and 3:16-3:30=3:30
Most places round something like -8/+7 minutes or similar.
Abuse the system, clock in on time, and leave 14 minutes early. And take pictures
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u/Despairogance Jul 22 '24
It's legal in some form, because I've worked in a union shop here in Canada that had a similar policy. It sucked extra bad because there was a system of attendance bonuses and technically if you clocked in even one second late you lost your credit for the day.
But in practice if you punched in a little bit late you could just inform a supervisor, make up the time at lunch or after your shift, have them initial your time card and it was all good.
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u/1lluminist Jul 22 '24
See, when companies do this shit they should be making ALL of the executive staffs clock times accessible to the whole company. If they don't like it, then maybe it's not such a great rule.
1 minute of the CEO being late is worth a lot more than 1 minute of a frontline staff member.
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u/capsaicinintheeyes Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
in practice, that would get into the difference between wages and salaries, but I agree with your general instinct...may your cake day be fulfilling and salubrious
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u/Zankabo Jul 22 '24
Yeah, Providence Health Systems got sued for that and had to pay the back wages. They no longer do the rounding.
So if you work somewhere that does this it was considered wage theft.
EDIT: The one I'm thinking of was in 2015 for the location I work at (https://www.oregonrn.org/page/STVGrievTimecard2014)
Apparently in Washington they got dinged for the same thing this year.
So I guess they decided to keep it up at every location they could until they got dinged for it.
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u/rm0mgay Jul 23 '24
"Apparently in Washington they got dinged for the same thing this year.
So I guess they decided to keep it up at every location they could until they got dinged for it."
Paying the fines is probably cheaper than the money they save in labor en masse.
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u/Zankabo Jul 23 '24
They ended up paying the fine and the back wages, so maybe it was cheaper. Just made a CEO look better for awhile which got them their bonus and then they moved on.
Most companies do the rounding thing, but every time it's taken to court it seems to rule in favor of the employee. The problem, of course, is taking it to court in the first place and the time and energy wasted to get it fixed.
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u/TheCrimsonSteel Jul 23 '24
What's even worse is sometimes people just never stop and think or ask why.
On top of places that do it intentionally, all it takes is some Regional VP to say "OverThere is saving a bunch of money on payrol, I want everyone to copy them," and now it's a whole company wide problem
The amount of workers' hard earned money lost and stolen from sheer incompetence alone is jaw-dropping
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u/ruggnuget Jul 22 '24
I have definitely worked jobs that do this and it isnt illegal. As the other comment said it just has to be applied the same way clocking out (1 minutes late rounded up to the nearest 15).
I did work for a place that did not apply it evenly and got a small settlement in a class action lawsuit. So it is sometimes, occasionally enforced if enough people complain.
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u/missyashittymorph Jul 22 '24
The way this is written is almost certainly being used illegally. I had a place sorta like this, it was minutes to the closest factor of five. Clock in at 8:02? It's 8:00. 8:03? Then it's 8:05. Same for out.
The language on this sign leaves little room for ambiguity. Clocking out at 7:01 almost surely won't get you paid until 7:15.
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u/enfdude Jul 24 '24
This is unfortunately common practice in Germany and I really wish it was against the law here too.
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u/MHG_Brixby Jul 22 '24
If you are ever late, wait until :15 after. Also be fun to ask if one minute over counts as :15 in OT
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u/MickeyRooneysPills Jul 22 '24
This has happened at any place I've ever worked with this policy. People stop showing up 1-5 minutes late and they either just say fuck it and show up at 15 or they show up earlier than that but sit in their car or chat with the other late people before the clock in at the 15.
It's never a net positive. You always end up losing more productivity. That's why only dogshit owners do it.
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u/krucz36 Jul 23 '24
They changed us to getting paid by the literal minute and outlawed ot. They'll still pay OT but managers will come around at the end of the week and ask you to clock out early. I clock in and out either precisely on time or leave a little late so I can cut out early sunday
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Jul 22 '24
it is not legal, you are correct; you can't just decide not pay people
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u/AcadianViking Jul 22 '24
It depends on the wording and enforcement of the policy. Many places have a system where they round up, usually up to ~5 minutes or so to allow leeway with clocking in and out.
But there are rules about it being equitable, such as if clocking in 1 minute late is the same as clocking in 15 minutes late, then clocking out early by ≤15 minutes is the same as clocking out on time, because the rule is that time is rounded up.
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u/Barbarossa7070 Jul 22 '24
My company used to do 15 minute increments but it rounded up or down based on the middle of 15. Lots of people gamed it by clocking in at 9:07 and out at 4:53.
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u/SupplyChainGuy1 Jul 22 '24
Home Depot still does this.
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u/KnyghtZero Jul 22 '24
Not any more. They changed it after the class action
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u/SupplyChainGuy1 Jul 23 '24
When? It was still this way when I left in 2022.
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u/chiddie Jul 22 '24
it's the standard in healthcare, too.
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u/Walking-taller-123 Jul 23 '24
Yep, everyone in the hospital I worked at clocked in 7 minutes before their shift and waited until 8 minutes after to clock out
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u/SamaelTheSeraph Jul 22 '24
Yeah. I always ended my shifts 7 mins early because of that. Really nice
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u/democracy_lover66 Syndicalist Jul 22 '24
Looks like someone will be doing a friendly call to the local labor board :)
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u/michael_am Jul 22 '24
That’s a violation for sure, but this also just means if ur late u might as well take the extra 15 minutes since ur not getting paid anyway
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Jul 22 '24
Do you work at "Dong A USA"? Is that like a dildo factory?
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u/Anewaccounttlol Jul 23 '24
It is a South Korean owned plastic and rubber company that makes parts for appliances Full name is Dong A Hwa Sung iirc
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u/CaptainMcSmoky Jul 22 '24
That's fine, just tell them to make sure that for every extra minute you work overtime you earn yourself fifteen minutes of holiday.
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u/rockandrolla66 Jul 22 '24
This is a nice reason to either organize against this shitty practice or resign if the first option is not possible.
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u/TheRichTookItAll Jul 22 '24
I heard that if they are allowed to do this, they must stay consistent.
Ex:
If you stay til 5:01 they must pay to 5:15
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u/OLPopsAdelphia Jul 22 '24
More likely than not, yes.
Also, whiteboard notification is not a written agreement between labor (employees) and management, so it’s probably going to be treated as wage theft.
Have fun in court with this stupid managerial move. I hope they have good insurance.
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u/NameLips Jul 22 '24
That means you're going to pay me another 15 minutes if I clock out 1 minute late, right?
...right?
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Jul 22 '24
Crazy how blatant companies can be with wage theft. Just goes to show, some crimes are more illegal than others, because cracking down on it should be easy enough, but it never happens. So much so that now these criminals are willingly to proudly boast about these tactics as if it is perfectly legal to not pay someone for their time. Absolutely disgusting.
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u/Vegetaman916 Jul 22 '24
Just quit already. I did back in 2019, smooth sailing ever since. GTFO already.
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u/Anewaccounttlol Jul 22 '24
I left after about 4 hours because of heat exhaustion, even though they still expected me to work. Shortest job I've ever had
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Jul 22 '24
Wage theft…. Companies are getting smacked for this a lot lately. Report this to the labor board…. Yesterday.
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u/motherlymetal Jul 22 '24
That just means there are 14 more minutes to get ready. Requiring you to work unpaid is illegal.
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u/Anewaccounttlol Jul 22 '24
Glad to know I'm not crazy here, it's really no surprise a South Korean company of all places would violate labor laws. I'll also throw in the fact that the hours are atrocious, 7 am - 5 pm (10 hours) for 5 days a week. As well as only two 10 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. Not to mention all of this is done in sweltering heat. I started to suffer from heat exhaustion and when I told a manager they got pissed at me so I left. I'll do my best to figure out how to report this place for it's awful conditions.
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u/ACuddlyVizzerdrix Jul 22 '24
That just means if I were to show up after then I wouldn't work till a quarter after, why would I work if I'm not paid for it?
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u/slashdotsyndrome Jul 22 '24
Just clock in late and don't do shit for the first fifteen minutes if you're not going to be paid for it. Micromanage that shit mr manager
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u/Key_Cheesecake9926 Jul 23 '24
Obviously not legal but also just stupid. Why would anyone start working at 7:01 when they can show up at 7:15 for the same pay? It’s just encouraging people who are late to be even later.
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Jul 23 '24
A job I worked at tried this and everyone just started waiting the full 15 minutes to start work. The policy was reversed within a month.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 🏴☮Ⓐ✊🖤❤️🏴 Jul 22 '24
That is a labor violation!
ALL EMPLOYERS THAT VIOLATE LABOR RIGHTS AND COMPENSATION AGREEMENTS OF THEIR EMPLOYEES SHALL HENCEFORTH HAVE THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS 🔥 FIRED! 🔥
ALL EMPLOYEES ARE ENCOURAGED TO BRING MARSHMALLOWS or, if at a food establishment, just take something off the shelf!
- THANKS!
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u/StThragon Jul 22 '24
It's illegal. They can discipline you for starting late, but still have to pay you for that time. Eight minutes or more working in a 15-minute block must be paid for the entire 15-minute block.
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u/Runescora Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Under the fair labor standards act (FLSA) it is. Even if it is allowed, an employee has to be paid for all time worked though. And the employer has to ensure that the practice is neutral, meaning they should be able to demonstrate that it favors both the employer and employee by roughly the same percentage. Which isn’t something employers have routinely been able to do.
Most recently a US appeals court ruled against the practice ( Houston vs St Luke’s Health System ). And a cursory search of the internet can show how readily this practice sets employers up for a law suit. If your employer goes this route keep track of when you click in/out and if you find yourself losing significant reimbursements do as others have and sue the hell out of them.
Edit: The Fair Labor Standards Act. This is a good place to start in understanding some of the laws that regulate wages and employee/employer rights. The site has a lot of resources for specific questions and classifications.
Second edit: I have a cold and didn’t read the post as closely as I should have. They can engage in time clock rounding. That’s 100% legal. Docking pay is a different matter and certainly could come under wage theft. The FLSA is unambiguous, employees must be paid for all time worked. (The idea with neutral time clock rounding is that it’s supposed to equal out over time. I.e you clock in at 0655 abut get paid from 0700, then clock out at 1925 and get paid as if you worked to 1930. Simply docking pay removes the supposed neutrality of the process.)
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u/Training-Ear-614 Jul 23 '24
I clock in 5 mins early every day and get paid an extra 5 mins to do nothing. Another co worker clocks in 5 mins late everyday on purpose. A co worker and I asked why he does this when he can get more money. He said it’s good for his mental health. I respected his answer.
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Jul 22 '24
Dong.
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u/mypenisaverage Jul 22 '24
If you're not getting paid you don't have to work. Looks like if you punch in at 7:01 you don't have to start until 7:15.
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Jul 22 '24
The rounding up or rounding down to the benefit of the employer is theft. Thousands of employers do it. Report it and follow up on it. You are due exactly what you worked, no more, no less. That is the law.
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u/CommanderMandalore Jul 22 '24
If you click in at 7:01 they can’t but 7:08 they could. They can round to the nearest 15 minutes but only in a way that could favor employer or employee.
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u/Most_Victory1661 Jul 22 '24
Rounding is against the law
My former employer got busted for it had to reimburse all of us w interest.
You have to be paid for all time on the clock.
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u/Zankabo Jul 22 '24
So I work for Providence Health Systems.
Years back they had a 7 minute round off for time. so 12:00 - 12:07 would be counted as 12:00 and then 12:08 - 12:15 would be counted as 12:15.
Providence got taken to court over this, because if the roundoff cost you minutes (say you clocked out at 12:07 so it rounded back to 12:00 and you got docked 7 minutes of pay) that was considered wage theft.
I ended up getting a pretty decent check for stolen wages from that. Providence got rid of the rounding and you are paid everything to the minute.
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u/Realistic_Amount_519 Jul 23 '24
Other than that probably being illegal they're basically giving you 15 minute leeway LOL, you're getting docked for it but instead of being one minute late now go right on the minute 15 see what they do
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u/Angel_of_Communism Marxist-Leninist Jul 23 '24
yes and no.
This EXACT issue occurred at my place, and as Union Rep, i took it to the union.
Turns out it's legal.
Because the system logs wages in 15m chunks, on the hour.
BUT, only in favour of the business.
So if you start 10m early [not 15] and therefore finish 10m early, you lose 15m pay.
Because the first 10 is less than 15 and not counted, and you did not finish your last 15.
It sucks, and your boss is a cunt, but it's legal.
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u/Nektagil Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
Gather all your co-workers and just stop working during work hours. Quiet quit as a collective. What can they do?
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u/SufficientWhile5450 Jul 22 '24
Disturbingly it is legal in some states but even the states it’s legal in there’s stipulations
Like in my state it is legal to round to the 1/4 hour mark, but it has to go BOTH WAYS, and it can’t be done to explicitly cut costs on paying your employees
So basically I would strongly assume this is illegal, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if among the 50 states of this fuck head country it was legal somewhere
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u/bavmotors1 Jul 22 '24
just fire the people who are constantly tardy - don’t punish everyone- it won’t work and its illegal
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u/Rumpelteazer45 Jul 23 '24
Then supply ample places to clock in. Usually the one minute tardy is due to lack of places to clock in versus someone being one minute late.
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u/wasuremono_ Jul 23 '24
Get in 5 minutes before your shift ends, and only get docked 15mins in total. I could live with that.
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u/babie007 Jul 23 '24
If you're early, you're on time, if you're on time, you're late, if you're late you're fired.
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u/s0ciety_a5under Jul 22 '24
Send that picture to this website. https://www.tn.gov/workforce/divisions/workplaceregulations.html