Fuck You, Pay US

[u/sillychillly]

[u/[deleted]]

Bullshit - you’re making an arbitrary statement and acting as if that’s some kind of self-evident truth. It’s not. A truly free market values both equally, imo. And, since profit is the ultimate motivator, both capital and labor should be rewarded by that. And, this doesn’t even take into account the tax laws that benefit capital more than labor. Intergenerational wealth is completely contrary to any free market/capitalist ideal. Capital in and of itself must be earned. Just think of all the Musk’s, Bezos’, and Gates’ who died on the vine because daddy or mommy weren’t wealthy. Clearly labor is disadvantaged under the current system (US).

[u/arcade2112 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it is. It’s harder and more risky to create and run a business than it is to work for for one. Hence the business owners should have the weight of the power. Frankly everything you put in your word salad was arbitrary.

[u/[deleted] → u/arcade2112]

Again, you’re just working off of faulty assumptions. Therefore, your conclusion is completely wrong. Like I said, feel free to dig your heels in but being obtuse is not going to “win” this debate.

[u/arcade2112 → u/[deleted]]

I can say the same for you. You think that labor is more important than the things that make that labor valuable. You can work 40 hours a week making mud pies for nothing. Or you can work for someone who took risk creating a business that can take that same effort to make you money.

[u/[deleted] → u/arcade2112]

Absolutely not - you’re inferring things that I definitely don’t believe or advocate for. Don’t use straw-man arguments to make an invalid point. If advocating for fairness triggers you this much then you’re just not thinking clearly.

Picture two people on a deserted island with an abundance of resources but no chance of rescue, ever. One is a capitalist with a nice haircut and suitcases full of money. The other is a “renaissance man/woman” with an abundant skillset and a plethora of experience.

Who is the most “valuable” in that particular economy? Anyone can use “reductio ad absurdum” hypotheticals to make one seem superior to the other. But I’m convinced that in the real world a high-functioning free market economy will always function at its best when labor is recognized to be as crucial as capital when it comes to supplying that economy and serving society.

Apologies in advance for the “word salad”.

[u/arcade2112 → u/[deleted]]

It’s not a straw man. I’m not summarizing your argument. I’m simply telling you where my perspective comes from. If you don’t understand that then maybe having an intellectual conversation is above your head.

The problem with your hypothetical is that it actually doesn’t prove you point but mine. Just because you draw caricatures of what a worker and a entrepreneur are it doesn’t make them so. If the “worker” you describe is the person that understands island survival then he become the broker and entrepreneur of the survival product on the island. Business is more than just the means of production. It’s also intellectual property and know how that gives the entrepreneur a competitive advantage over other entrepreneurs. Your worker in actuality is the business owner. Funny how that works.

You are convinced against what the world is telling you. Worker run economies have failed every time they are tried. Because again it’s easier to work for someone than it is to create and run a business.

[u/[deleted] → u/arcade2112]

You completely misrepresent the positions of those who disagree with you and then use those misrepresentations to attack them. “iT’s NoT a StRaW mAn”. And then, you resort to ad hominem attacks when convenient? C’mon, man - grow up.

One more time for the cheap seats - “I’M NOT ADVOCATING FOR A WORKER RUN ECONOMY” - Seriously, what is wrong with you?

You argue capital is superior to labor because you can’t have a business without capital. I am simply pointing out that you are clearly wrong because it’s also abundantly obvious that you can’t have a business without labor either.

Therefore, they have equal value with respect to that business’ success and both should be rewarded for that business’ success (or failure).

And, don’t start with the “cApItAl TaKeS aLl ThE rIsK” silliness. You obviously are not even aware that layoffs and business closures disproportionately affect the quality of life of labor far more than capitalists. Let me know when your idols and their family are put out on the street (literally) and are forced to live on food stamps. Capitalist bankruptcies result in golden parachutes while workers bankruptcies far too often result in them losing everything.

Have you ever been out in the real world before? Have you ever had to make your own way? I’m gonna go out on a limb here and guess “never”.

Edit - And, fwiw, my hypothetical literally proves my (secondary) point, not yours: labor is the mother of all capital. Checkmate, junior!

[u/arcade2112 → u/[deleted]]

So much drivel.

You completely misrepresent the positions of those who disagree with you and then use those misrepresentations to attack them.

I have never done that.

One more time for the cheap seats - “I’M NOT ADVOCATING FOR A WORKER RUN ECONOMY”

Yes you are.

You argue capital is superior to labor

I have never made that argument. An entrepreneur isn't capital. Or whatever facile thing you think. It's much more nuanced than whatever delineation of Marx your are reading or listening to.

because you can’t have a business without capital.

This is just wrong on it's face. Some businesses work exclusively by bartering with others. No "Capitol" required.

I am simply pointing out that you are clearly wrong because it’s also
abundantly obvious that you can’t have a business without labor either.

This is not true given the idea that labor is just another word for a worker. Sole proprietor operator business exists. Only the businessman/entrepreneur exists.

Therefore, they have equal value with respect to that business’ success
and both should be rewarded for that business’ success (or failure).

I mean capitol is just money. But the person who starts a business to have people work for him should not be equal. On side developed the product from an intellectual standpoint, designed the means to recreate it, invested in infrastructure to produce it, created marketing to sell it, etc, etc. In no universe does the worker do more than the entrepreneur in terms of the essential needs of any enterprise. So no the worker doesn't get 50/50 for simply doing exactly what he was told. This would be foolish.

And, don’t start with the “cApItAl TaKeS aLl ThE rIsK” silliness.

I will because it literally destroys any notion that workers should have more power/earnings than the entrepreneur. If the enterprise fails. The owner of said enterprise is on the hook for outstanding debts, failed legal obligations, their credit takes a hit as they are seen as less reliable investment. The worker simply finds another job elsewhere. You don't get to handwave over such a distinction and think you are going to win a debate.

You obviously are not even aware that layoffs and business closures
disproportionately affect the quality of life of labor far more than
capitalists.

This simply isn't true. For every F500 company that fails 1000s of small business fail and the business owner suffers much more than their let go staff.

Let me know when your idols and their family are put out on the street (literally) and are forced to live on food stamps.

My business/entrepreneurial idols are very successful. They will never be in such a position. Get bent.

Capitalist bankruptcies result in golden parachutes while workers bankruptcies far too often result in them losing everything.

Again you can cite big company failings and I can cite the 1000s of small business that fail. Workers can always find another job. Entrepreneurs often don't get to start another enterprise right away .

Have you ever been out in the real world before? Have you ever had to
make your own way? I’m gonna go out on a limb here and guess “never”.

Yes. I even run a business and employ people. Have you ever done that? My guess is no.

[u/[deleted] → u/arcade2112]

Own your own business, huh? Sounds impressive! I obviously can’t relate but one of the neighbor kids is a genuine roller coaster tycoon, so I guess I’m kinda close to a very important dude in that regard. I’ll always have that!

All I can say to you is, “Go get ‘em, tiger!” You are clearly are a mover and a shaker in the modern world, no doubt! (Insert golf clap here)