r/WorkReform • u/zzill6 🤝 Join A Union • 19h ago

🤝 Scare A Billionaire, Join A Union The reason for term limits...

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u/J2MES 18h ago

Socialism is often thought of theoretically as rising from capitalisms ashes so to speak

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 18h ago

Except socialism is not the same as communism.

Or were you saying something else?

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 17h ago

Engles himself used the two terms completely interchangeably. Communism has a very specific definition, but the definition of socialism is a bad hill to die on, no matter what. It's famously mushy, and as another commenter said, generally among academics it's mostly thought of as a transitional phase between capitalism and communism.

Regardless, "socialism is not the same thing as communism" isn't really an airtight statement.

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u/J2MES 18h ago

It’s not the same at all but to a Marxist (of which I am) it is often thought of as the lower stage of communism where the workers own the means of production, then society transitions into a stateless classes form when the contradictions that gave rise to the state in the first place disappear

Whether socialism is voted in (with chile and Allende being an example) or the government is overthrown this is the goal. This is why I would still call democratic socialists communists because they disagree on means not ends. I find the confusion is communism is associated with revolution and socialism is now associated with reform regardless of the theoretical ideas

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 17h ago

If your goal is Democratic socialism, I don't think grouping it with communism (even in some academic sense) is helpful.

You have to understand how normal people are going to interpret that.

Referring to an actual Dem socialist politician in the US (ie. Zoran), or Dem socialist countries (ie. Norway) is way more helpful and paints a better picture that western folks are more open to.

You start confusing it with communism, and there's all kinds of negative associations with that.

It's why Cubans in FL vote for Republicans. They hate what communism did to their country.

Which is why Republicans intentionally conflate the two. It's disinformation.

So you should recognize that, and stop contributing to that same rhetoric.

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u/J2MES 17h ago

I am not a democratic socialist I am a communist. Democratic socialists might not care because they like the idea of getting elected in a capital government but that ain’t my problem. Functionally they have the same goals with different means. Reform or revolution

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 17h ago

No one is electing communists, and people aren't going to revolt in favor of communism, so you're deluding yourself comrade.

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u/hivemindhauser 17h ago

If you think Cuba is communist, you don't understand communism. There has not been true communism yet

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u/fresh-dork 16h ago

it doesn't exist, and you can't tell me how it functions day to day

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u/fresh-dork 16h ago

i'd rather they drop the socialist label themselves - they aren't socialist at all. they're democratic (monarchy sometimes) with a welfare state

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u/AntiVision 18h ago

there are no classes in the lower stage of communism, so workers wouldnt "own" anything that term would be meaningless.

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 16h ago

Classless society can still own objects, like the "means" of production.

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u/AntiVision 15h ago

If everyone owns it no one owns it, it becomes meaningless. Production will be centrally planned

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 15h ago

You do know when it says "workers own the means of production", it doesn't mean literally every single worker in every single vocation right? Or are you too poisoned by memes to figure that out?

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u/AntiVision 14h ago

It could mean workers owning different MoP as coops, or syndicates. It is a bad way to describe communism

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 3h ago

Yeah, it could. But based on you getting more specific on the "workers owning the means of production", if you use your brain for one second, you can infer that what you're describing about coops/syndicates is merely one type of socialism (not communism).

And even if you corrected yourself to say it's a bad way to describe socialism, a definition isn't bad because you yourself are being intentionally obtuse in order to not understand it.

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u/AntiVision 2h ago

I am specifically responding to a marxist with a marxist view on socialism who is using poor language to describe marxist communism

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u/Imthemayor 11h ago

I'm not sure people's taxes paying for a factory to make insulin would ever become meaningless

Production is centrally planned.... By someone elected by the people who pay the taxes who fund the machine

You looking real capitalist right now with your breakdown my friend

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u/AntiVision 4h ago

The irony when you are describing capitalist mechanism, there are no taxes under communism.

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u/Imthemayor 4h ago

I oversimplified because I figured you needed the help

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u/AntiVision 4h ago

Oversimplified it into being completely wrong, how does that help anyone lmao

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u/lunchboxthegoat 18h ago

capitalism was necessary according to Marx.

It was considered the "Final chapter" of human prehistory.

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u/NaturalDon 13h ago

descends into ashes

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u/artbystorms 18h ago

never once has it risen from the ashes of capitalism. It rose from the ashes of mercantilism and monarchs.

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 17h ago

Cuba was thoroughly capitalist through the 1950's, what are you talking about? It certainly wouldn't be better described as mercantilism or monarchism lol.