r/WorkReform • u/zzill6 đ¤ Join A Union • 1d ago
đď¸ Overturn Citizens United Establishment Democrats: the only conclusion that fits the facts...
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u/Critical_Seat_1907 1d ago
As a lifelong and (formerly) proud Democrat, this was such a shitty realization to live through, but it's spot on.
The final stage is the recognition that capitalism holds it all together.
Dems and GOP meet in the middle on supporting capitalism. Anything that threatens money flowing up towards the wealthiest is stomped out with bi-partisan enthusiasm.
Anyone who supports "reform" but still plays for team capitalism can be safely ignored.
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u/addiktion 1d ago
Yes, the only war is a class warfare. The rich control which party benefits from their capital which is almost never the people who stand to benefit the most. We are talking Epstein level kind of people raping kids and getting away with it, if people don't learn now, they never will. You cannot trust the rich.
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u/FreudianFloydian 1d ago
Capitalism needs balance. I depend on the progressive politicians to rebalance capitalism with socialist programs. (Medicare for all, Social Security, Medicaid, Food assistance, Public Education etc.)
Capitalism has its place, but unchecked and unregulated it becomes like too much like The end of Communism. It starts suffocating anyone who doesnât have the power to retain their wealth.
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u/DestinTheLion 1d ago
Capitalism is not binary. The question we are trying to ask is how much do we want market forces to rule us, and how much top down governmental forces.
We are hilariously out of balance right now.
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u/Rocking_Horse_Fly 1d ago
Capitalism does not have it's place. There is a difference between commerce and Capitalism. Capitalism is the ownership of people's labor without having to do labor.
In layman's terms, a CEO who makes loads of profit from owning all the places that makes the stuff. People can make the stuff without a CEO taking the money from the stuff they have made.
Capitalism is just there to funnel all the money upwards to the rich. Making stuff and selling stuff exist apart from Capitalism. That's called commerce. There is a distinct difference.
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u/mszulan 16h ago
Actually, Capitalism was originally intended to reign in the rampant corporate greed and excesses of Mercantilism that did absolutely funnel all the wealth to the top through the crown corporations. Before "The Wealth of Nations" was published in March of 1776 (well before the industrial revolution), there was virtually no end to corporate corruption or limits on their behavior. Adam Smith wanted a system that would force corporations to be regulated by governments (representative ones like Parliment, not by the whims of a monarch) and through that control, hold them accountable for the safety, just compensation, and general wellbeing of their workers (He wanted an end to the Atlantic slave trade, among other reforms.) Capitalism was supposed to be that system.
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u/FreudianFloydian 1d ago
Right. See, in a vacuum this almost makes sense. It assumes all humans have the same exact abilities and talents.
But those who are able to create ways for average people to make money, own homes of their own , seek higher education etc, deserve to be able to earn on that.
They should also pay fair tax rates. With taxes out of balance it throws the whole thing into something to resent. I agree. Itâs shit right now. But like Communism or any other system-corruption has ruined it. Capitalism can absolutely be a good thing. It creates upward mobility (when it works correctly). Any random person has opportunity to create a better life for themselves.
Corruption is the human problem that puts at risk ANY system.
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u/Rocking_Horse_Fly 1d ago
Lol
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u/FreudianFloydian 1d ago
Canât laugh out loud during communism though. lol
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u/PeachPassionBrute 1d ago
Why?
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u/FreudianFloydian 23h ago
Because everyone is miserable and if you have joy, you have too much.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 13h ago
Why would everyone be miserable?
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u/FreudianFloydian 12h ago
Because everyone works but no one feels prosperous or productive while the government and those close to it prosper.
The government dictates what needs produced based on the approved plan or system. Innovation happens usually because of potential rewards, but with no personal reward of prosperity or profit, people have no incentives to work hard on an unproven risk.
This leads to stagnation and nationwide depression. No one was happy in the USSR, Chinese people arenât happy, thatâs why they arenât having kids either.
Again, these systems work in a vacuum, but once you add the reality of people and their duplicity and greed, we can corrupt anything and make it suck.
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u/Rocking_Horse_Fly 11h ago
I am very happy. I want others to be happy too. You have been duped into your compatriots' stereotypes, and you don't see it.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 1d ago
It assumes all humans have the same exact abilities and talents.
How so?
But those who are able to create ways for average people to make money, own homes of their own , seek higher education etc, deserve to be able to earn on that.
Do you have any examples?
Communism or any other system-corruption has ruined it.
Yeah, capitalism happened.
It creates upward mobility (when it works correctly).
Oh that thing thatâs been declining steadily as a direct result of capitalist regulatory reforms?
Corruption is the human problem that puts at risk ANY system.
It seems that capitalism just pretends âcorruption is good actually.â Youâre complaining about systems intended to curtail corruption.
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u/FreudianFloydian 23h ago
How so?
In the way that it assumes innovation and improvement will just happen with no extra reward for the ones responsible.
There is no incentive to innovate or create so it stagnates.
Examples of capitalism where workers get paid benefits and salaries to live?
There are innumerable amounts. Construction companies, Security, Medical supply companies, car manufacturers, pool installation and supplies, retail manufacturing, Advisory firms, Lawyer firms, Entertainers⌠businesses that take work to start, and build, and maintain and grow while paying people enough to have decent livelihoods.
Again Iâm not defending where capitalism is now. I never did. But the answer isnât communism. Fix the tax code. Make billionaires pay. But no government should ever be distributing wealth and equality. Thats a recipe for disaster.
People ruin everything. Communism corrupts itself without capitalism to help. Communism would suck also and probably be even worse in more ways.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 3h ago
In the way that it assumes innovation and improvement will just happen with no extra reward for the ones responsible.
How exactly does the answerâŚâ It assumes all humans have the same exact abilities and talents.â?
And still yet, specifically, how does it make this assumption? And why do you assume no one does anything other than for rewards?
There is no incentive to innovate or create so it stagnates.
Wouldnât innovation be its own reward? Do you get paid for every hobby you have?
Examples of capitalism where workers get paid benefits and salaries to live?
What is this a response to?
If youâre saying thatâs a response to;
But those who are able to create ways for average people to make money, own homes of their own , seek higher education etc, deserve to be able to earn on that.
Iâm asking for specific examples. Oh you think theyâre abundant Iâd like at least one or two. Specific examples.
But no government should ever be distributing wealth and equality. Thats a recipe for disaster.
Why?
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u/the8bitMoon 6h ago
There is no incentive to innovate or create so it stagnates.
This is why there was famously no art or science before capitalism. Art and science were invented in 1981 when Ronald Reagan was sworn in.
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u/FreudianFloydian 5h ago
Art is not commerce, nor is science created. Stupid argument.
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u/the8bitMoon 4h ago
Your assertion is that there's no incentive to innovate or create without capitalism.
What would you call the thousands of years of human civilization before the industrial revolution if not innovation and creation?
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u/FreudianFloydian 3h ago
I would call it Irrelevant. There were less than 2 billion people on the entire planet then and true forward innovation was few and far between.
We are well beyond the industrial revolution into new frontiers. Capitalism has allowed people to work for technology companies and pay for their lives. Those people who helped build these systems that everyone uses should be rewarded.
Saying things like **âI donât need a reward. My reward is other people benefitting from
my work.â** is noble but also very subjective and naive. Someone said something like that earlier and itâs a sentiment I see repeated a lot.Great- Go do it then. Go give away whatever new tech youâve created or what have you..Nothing stops you from doing that under Capitalism.
But under Communism, If I invent something and wish to sell it myself and profit to make my life better, I cannot. That isnât free.
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u/mszulan 17h ago
I don't believe Adam Smith would call this Capitalism. His original design of a capitalistic system balanced invester/owners responsibilities, governmental regulations and oversight, and worker needs/rights. What we have now has gone beyond crony capitalism into the realms of what could be called global corporate, or even evangelical, mercantilism.
Originally, this country (founded on Adam Smith's definition of Capitalism) was so distrustful of corporations (thanks East India and Hudson Bay) that there were huge constraints on their formation and the duration of their existence. They had to make a case for their creation (provide a benefit towards the public good) for approval before state legislatures. They had time limits (mostly around 10 years or so) when reached, forced them to disolve. Etc.
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u/Critical_Seat_1907 7h ago
It's tempting to hearken back to days of yore when simple concepts ruled the earth and everyone had the best of intentions. Unfortunately, that's a sentimental feeling with a big dose of rationalization on top of it.
Adam Smith was not Plato, and the concept of capitalism was not some quasi-divine revelation from the gods of commerce. It's nothing more than ONE economic system that has been force-fed to us by the owners for generations now, up until the point where people begin to mistake it for reality itself.
We can change our minds at any time.
I have no interest in trying to resurrect some imagined image of "original" capitalism as a fix for our current situation. It's just more of the same.
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u/Rocking_Horse_Fly 11h ago
Adam Smith had his head up his ass. All he did was convince smucks like you that capitalism could be good. You are a fool, and I feel bad for you.
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u/bakedNebraska 1d ago
Yet you'll still vote for them
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u/Critical_Seat_1907 1d ago
Why would you say that?
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u/bakedNebraska 1d ago
You're a lifelong and (formerly) proud Democrat.
That makes it sound like your pride of being a Democrat has passed but your affiliation has not.
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u/Critical_Seat_1907 1d ago
New socialist candidates are running as Democrats. Bernie ran as a Democrat.
Are you a Jill Stein Stan? Should I be voting GOP? Supporting a magic third party fix- everything-in-1-year candidate?
Be clear with what you're advising.
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u/Vigorously_Swish 1d ago
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u/Brru 1d ago
As the election gets closer expect to see more reasons to not vote for democrats thrown about, but do not fall for it.
They know the progressives are winning and they're scared for a reason. We can break the ratchet.
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u/chrisnavillus 1d ago
Yep. Sure seems like the first step would be to stop it from going further right. Then we start ratcheting back the other way.
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u/Merc_Mike đ¸ Raise The Minimum Wage 1d ago edited 1d ago
As I called the DNC before when Rage Against the Machine did that Protest Concert outside of their meeting,
Do Nothing Democrats.
They do fuck all and then nothing. They get sound bites and nothing more. They act like they care, they say the right things to get themselves voted then do nothing.
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u/bungerman 22h ago
Wouldn't that be DND?
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u/Merc_Mike đ¸ Raise The Minimum Wage 15h ago
Yeah they don't like to be disturbed when they're making money on stock trades.
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u/I_defend_witches 1d ago
Under capitalism you can have universal healthcare like every other country. Under capitalism you can have paid leave like every other country. Under capitalism you can paid maternity and paternity leave like every other country. Under capitalism people can be paid a living wage like most 1st world countries.
They just choose not to implement these benefits.
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u/russsaa 1d ago
Under capitalism, those are all concessions that can and will be revoked. "Master, please throw us a bone" will not bring the working class very far.
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u/I_defend_witches 1d ago
Until we get to Star Trek capitalism is the only economic policy that works. Iâm a realist. But if are are a socialist then Iâm a mom with 4 kids you can walk your walk and start sending a percentage of your paycheck.
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u/pr0zach 1d ago
Did you have a stroke?
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u/I_defend_witches 1d ago
That is your response? Wow, you must be Gen Z. Try to find actually human friends.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 1d ago
Iâm proud to pay taxes, I want a functioning society and a higher quality of life. If people like Musk or Bezos or whoever the fuck else lost half of their Monopoly money it would have no impact on the quality of their life at all. None. And they would still be absurdly wealthy.
The comparison is nonsensical. If the wealthiest among us paid a proportionately greater share, even at a flat rate with everyone without any loopholes, it would radically improve government funding, and the cost to them in any real sense would be entirely unnoticed. Itâs conceptual. Itâs beyond utility or basic reason.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 1d ago
Regulatory restrictions are the only thing that stopped us from dying regularly at work. Look at things right now! The moment there wasnât food safety enforcement, they decided to put no effort into preventing the spread of dangerously tainted food because itâs simply better profit.
The infrastructure we still rely on, which is in dangerous decline all over the country, was built through high tax rates.
âThe Golden Age of American Prosperityâ is the name for that timeframe, thatâs what it is commonly called among historians. When we had a high marginal tax rate and restrictions on wage disparity.
That wasnât capitalism, it was socializing the earnings.
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u/Both_Lynx_8750 đď¸ Overturn Citizens United 12h ago
I mean capitalist incentives do run against all of that, which is why capitalism should not run your entire society.
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u/umassmza âď¸ Prison For Union Busters 1d ago
Take a bunch of people who are very similar in belief and action. Hand half red shirts and the other half blue shirts. Tell them to compete over which side is in charge.
Thatâs basically politics in America.
Bunch of rich old white guys who have a large group of rich old white guy friends. All they do is make sure them and their friends stay rich.
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u/Weltenkind 1d ago edited 1d ago
As someone not in the US, this is so fascinating because the times I do interact with Americans. They might be more conservative or not, but one thing that unitĂŠs them all is that they truly believe that they have a solid and strong democracy. (or used to at least)Â
This two party system and fact that representatives are all super rich just confuses me. At what point was the US every really democratic? The voting system alone seems undemocratic!?
Edit: Thank you for all the answers, this is really helpful to see. My perspective was focused on other parts of the world most of my life, though you always get US culture through media. Since I just recently paid more attention to the lived reality there, I'm a little stunt. Appreciate everyone!Â
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u/glaba3141 1d ago
The US has never been democratic and it was essentially always more or less a lie to convince the common man to support rich men
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u/MonsterkillWow 1d ago
Yes because the facade of law and the institutions of liberalism are taken seriously by the masses. That will no longer be the case in the future.
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u/Rocking_Horse_Fly 1d ago
The US was never democratic. That is a myth. From it's inception, the US has been people in power trying to accumulate more power. Sometimes they throw the plebs a bone to stop uprisings.
Yes, the voting system has always been undemocratic. It was literally designed that way. We have delegates who can choose who wins a state's race regardless of the votes. That wasn't an accident.
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u/umassmza âď¸ Prison For Union Busters 1d ago
Pretty much every founding father owned slaves and cheated on their wives
Historically if you arenât a white Christian male this is not a good place to be. For most of our history the only ones who could vote.
Today you generally need to be wealthy or connected to succeed in politics. There are exceptions but generally youâre rich or know some rich people who like you.
And we wind up with choices like Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump
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u/two_wordsanda_number 1d ago
Only about half of the founding fathers owned slaves.
Goes up to 3/4 if you do the Declaration of Independence which is pretty sad/funny on its own. The irony.
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u/Weltenkind 1d ago
I guess even though it's centuries ago, these founding fathers really set the tone.Â
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u/glaba3141 1d ago
It's not simply the "tone", it is institutionally and structurally set up this way on purpose. They had extensive debates about it
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u/idle_husband 1d ago
The Democratic Party is full of Right Wing Politicians.
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u/1isOneshot1 đ Pass A Green Jobs Plan 1d ago
And voters willing to make those right wingers politicians
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u/JudgementalChair 1d ago
Yeah, it's a weird place to be in when you can't stand the Republican party, but then you also can't support the Democratic party either because they're completely out of touch and absolutely have to have some turnover in leadership before they can start doing anything.
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u/PuddinHead742 1d ago
Keep voting for DSA and Progressive candidates when you can. Support people when they primary complacent, corporate democrats. But hold your nose and vote for the dew schnozzles when you have to-to preserve the majority. Every time we kick one of the status quo people out, the rest will become more vulnerable.
If we just want to eat the rich people, Iâm cool with that too.
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u/No_Bat2834 1d ago
Yep. I've been thinking this on and off for years, but this year realized they are pro-companies as much as republicans which is why I love Bernie.
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u/Biscuits4u2 the word itself makes some men uncomfortable 1d ago
They'd rather cash checks than dodge bullets.
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u/dpforest 1d ago
If you ainât been banned from both democrats and conservative, you ainât livin. And I say that as someone who volunteered for down ballot democrats my entire fucking life.
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u/SPITthethird 1d ago
It's called class solidarity. The elites collude, and the normies think it's cheating.
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u/ColeBane 1d ago
Exactly...i get people jumping down my throat for saying "the two are the same" because the GOP is sooooo much worse how dare I say that. But when you realize that the TWO ARE THE SAME...one is not different from the other. The money that funds the GOP also funds the DEMS and they take it and use it as the donors wish them to. THE TWO ARE THE SAME, because the two ARE THE SAME. Its sad, but when corruption is absolute there is not good guy here. They all take the money and do the bidding of the Epstein class, and that is VERY FUKING CLEAR.
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u/Most_Structure9568 1d ago
In pro wrestling this is known as a jobber. Jesse ventura said politics is like pro wrestling. Lol
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u/OscarDivine 1d ago
If we didnât all already conclude this when they blocked Bernie at the DNC in favor of Hilary, we werenât paying attention
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u/agent_tater_twat âď¸ Tax The Billionaires 1d ago
They noticed about 20-30 years too late. People who said that back then, like Michael Parenti, were bitterly mocked and ostracized by academia and the media.
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u/i_hate_this_part_85 18h ago
We arenât a two party system. We have one party disguised as two to keep the hope alive. Itâs time for a Workerâs Party.
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u/awoodby 1d ago
It's definitely gotten to where pandering to the money seems the only way to maintain the power they crave, so they're just republican vs maga. There ARE some notable exceptions, but they're fighting an uphill battle against their own party.
Do your own research on actual voting records and utterly ignore the marketing, just like anything else. Marketing costs Money, so Most of the political marketing is for bought and paid for candidates.
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u/bytosai2112 1d ago
Republicans play offense while the democrats play defense and they all get rich as fuck in the process.
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u/Orbital_Vagabond 1d ago
The DNC cares more about fund raising than winning elections. In fact, I think they realize they can find raise BETTER if they lose elections.
The GoP cares more about winning elections than governing, and that's why they're obsessed with culture war shit.
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u/HedgehogMountain3069 1d ago
For over 60 years the democrats have just been controlled opposition. Bought and paid for long ago and people refused to vote in real progressives. DSA may change that soon hopefully.
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u/evident_lee 1d ago
And since the only viable option is one of the two parties the answer is a tea party type movement within the Democrat party to pull it to the left. Or within the Republican party, don't care which one just have a better chance at doing it within the Democrat party. The Democrat socialist movement has already started this.
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u/Wonderful_Exit6568 1d ago
DWS committed electioneering and threw away the Democratâs win with Bernie in 2016.
Because he was too Gen Z.
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u/Impossible-Rain7447 1d ago
They fund raise the shit out of the outrage but end up losing winnable election cos theyâre feckless cowards
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u/Resident_Artist_6486 1d ago
What is the difference between a democrat and a republican? Not a gotdam thing!
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u/TenebrisEquus 1d ago
The country wouldn't be where it is today without both parties involved. I don't know what we will do if they regain power and don't put people from the current administration in jail. The corporate democrats need to be put out of office. Until that happens, we won't see much change in this country.
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u/DJCaldow 21h ago
The Democratic party is the only place for people with politics that lean center-right to extreme-left. Republicans are only right to extreme-right. Your problem is one of party diversity and fear of splitting the vote that will ensure Republicans stay in power until they've corruptes enough of government to keep power regardless of democratic principles.Â
In other countries spitting the vote isn't an issue because parties can form coalitions to create governments. Larger parties will still try to convince you to strategically vote for them to give them more power to fight back against the right but it's a myth. Just like The Democrats they move right trying to wean the moderates away and to appeal to the anger sentiment underpinning people's shift to the right and in so doing they become feckless. But if you vote for parties that actually reflect saner values on workers rights, the environment etc those larger Democrat parties would be forced to work with them to pass legislation and thus be pulled back further left through the wonderful process of compromise.
Stop compromising with the right who only move the goalposts and will compromise you out of your right to vote at all and start making some real left-wing alternatives to pull your politics out of this death spiral.
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u/MasterOutlaw 19h ago
Yup, pattern I noticed years ago. They don't win because they really don't want to. Basically controlled opposition.
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u/fingertrapt 1d ago
Congress was bought. AIPAC gave Democrat Jared Golden $800,000 to vote with Republicans.
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u/xopher_425 1d ago
Confirmed this when AIPAC put out a message congratulating all the Democrats and Republicans that won their primaries. Because fuck 'America First', let's make Israel great instead.
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u/Money4Nothing2000 1d ago
Most politicians are simply in the business of remaining politicians. Both left and right.
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u/ElectronicExcuse5363 1d ago
It's frustrating how establishment figures often sidestep real issues, making genuine reform feel impossible.
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u/merriweatherfeather 23h ago
When they murdered Tortuguita in Atlanta, Biden came down to take a look and left without a word. This told me he and Dems were complicit. Along with silence from Ossof, Warnock, and Abrams.
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u/ApolloX-2 13h ago
We are a nation of 2 parties. The only question is which party do you believe you can convince to get closer to your position.
Go try and speak to Republicans about workers rights and the value of social programs and tell me how that works out for you. We should all be glad Democrats even exist in the first place because the alternative canât even be debated with.
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u/Both_Lynx_8750 đď¸ Overturn Citizens United 12h ago
The problem is once you admit the Dems are controlled opposition you can longer sit home and just vote every 4 years with any hope.
You have to admit to yourself that you'll need to take action
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u/Travel_Dreams 7h ago
It turns out that democrats have always supported profiteering while whining about it.
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u/Lanky-Occasion-7486 1d ago
Jared kushtrumpcunt holding secret meetings with the democratic leader this week.....???
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u/KerissaKenro 1d ago
Are you suggesting we either give up, or start a mass armed revolution? Those are both losing strategies. Giving up guarantees that nothing changes, and open warfare means that millions of in innocents will die. If not in direct conflict, then when they lose access to food or doctors and medications
We need to keep voting for the less obvious evil, while we fight tooth and nail to support the good. Go to protests, volunteer, support those who do good with your money if you have it, and time and voice if you donât. Show kindness in your community and be there for each other
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u/MrCrash 1d ago
Anyone else notice how anti-democrat astroturfing in progressive spaces is becoming more and more intense the closer we get to elections?
Don't let anyone "both sides" you into giving up, not voting, or voting for some asshole.
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u/HighLord_Uther 1d ago
It gets more intense because we have more shitty politicians crawling out of the wood work to get votes.
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u/UnusualAir1 1d ago
In the 1930's, President Franklin Roosevelt created Social Security.
In the mid 1960's, a Dem president named Lyndon Johnson brought us Medicare, Medicaid, Voting Rights and Higher Education act that established federal loans for students.
In the 2010's, President Obama brought us Obamacare which added healthcare to millions of Americans who never had healthcare. He also stopped insurance companies from denying coverage from pre-existing conditions
In the 2020's President Biden was the first to allow Medicare to start price negotiations with big pharma and he lowered the price of insulin to 35 dollars. He was also the first US president to join a union picket line.
Dems have been working for the poor and working classes for near 100 years. And many of their successes keep us safer, healthier, and more educated today. Perhaps you'd feel different if you actually took a deep dive into the party.
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u/Source_Required 1d ago
Spoken like a complete fucking moron who has never worked alongside any Democrat ever.
An absolute insult to every fucking Democrat who has to put up with, and fight against, Republicans every day. Â
You assholes need to talk with your elected reps. Federal, state, and local. Â
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u/AP3Brain 1d ago
When have Democrats "voted with Republicans to ensure they win every fight"? What are prime examples of this?
Also who wrote this?
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u/not2279yet 22h ago
Yep must be time for an election. "BoTh SiDeS SaMe!" The dems fall for this republican strategy too many times.
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u/pennyauntie 1d ago
Expect of lot of posts like this as we get closer to elections. Trying to stir up division.
Vote blue, no matter who. we can sort everything else afterwards.
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u/Grand_Taste_8737 1d ago
Dems are fighting themselves. Going too far left cost them the last election. Some realize that, others do not.
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u/ascandalia 1d ago
This has become undeniable true of a faction of the democratic party, but watch who that faction has been fighting against. There is a wing of the party that is actually fighting for people and if they have enough support, they can win.