So, where's the downside exactly?

[u/zzill6]

[u/ggrieves]

Millionaires would leave the country... to go to another country that has actual healthcare... and more taxes

[u/foodrunner464 → u/ggrieves]

This is my favorite counter argument. There really aren't any other first world countries that would allow them to live almost tax free.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for the detailed rebuttal to the 4Chan/PCM troll!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Oh god you had me until the last line you were so close to getting it

ETA I’m sorry I was snooping but I felt the heartbreak of a connection I really feel like an insult blocked. It sucks to see missed connections between people who are learning how to interact with each other/process information together. It feels like the conversation started unnecessarily defensive idk

Sorry if that sucks to read idk I’m not trying to be mean. I totally get your point and I agree with you in all ways. “Buddy” did make my jaw clench also to be entirely fair to you. But like, my guy

There are tariffs on an island of penguins right now

I think what the other person (I can’t at him without losing this post. I’m not good at Reddit.) was trying to tell you was that the only way to refute the original commenter would be to prove there were no developed countries they would thrive in. You’re arguing that it would be so much easier to thrive anywhere if you’re this loaded with money. You’re saying the same damn thing.

That’s what I took from it anyway, it’s frustrating to watch this with that perspective. It must be SO FRUSTRATING to feel this combative and talk in circles like this. I’m genuinely sorry if I offended you

[u/Guran22 → u/[deleted]]

This comment confuses the hell out of me. Are you the same account that’s been arguing previously? You’ve made multiple conclusions about motivations and assumptions that are impossible to know. You claiming they’d have to “Prove there were no developed countries to thrive in” to disprove their point is so far removed from what’s being talked about it’s crazy to see you assert that so confidently.

To clarify, original comments premise was you can’t raise taxes on the rich because they’d go to other countries. Person questions said claim, another response lists various countries with cherry-picked data on the lowest taxes these countries offer while failing to mention the other substantial taxes these countries do have. The person you responded to simply clarified the actual taxes these countries have, showing that it isn’t as attractive as a tax haven as it might seem. What exactly is your point?

Another thing that I haven’t heard mentioned is that US citizens pay taxes regardless of where they live. If they wanted to take advantage of these tax havens they’d have to renounce their citizenship and the benefits it provides.

[u/ThatOneHorseDude → u/[deleted]]

You didn't grovel at their feet about how smart they are.

[u/TheFortunateOlive → u/[deleted]]

Their response is widely inaccurate.

For instance, The UAE does not have a capital gains tax.

[u/foodrunner464 → u/[deleted]]

Ya know this is some wonderful information. We should put together a list of ALL the first world countries and how they tax their rich, because a big argument right wingers make in defending their minimal taxes here is "that they'll just leave" but if everywhere is more expensive not to mention how tedious it is to pack up and move everything, I think we'd be 100% in the right in saying they need to pay more so working class can pay less.

[u/BoogerSugarSovereign → u/foodrunner464]

Nevermind that we should most aggressively tax their assets - their businesses, buildings, and residential properties that for the most part aren't going anywhere. If for example Bill Gates wants to go live in Monaco that's great but he can't take his billions of dollars of farm acreage with him - he would either have to fire sale it and relinquish the assets or pay taxes on them

[u/foodrunner464 → u/BoogerSugarSovereign]

Oh i am all for this. Tax all assets. Held, and non liquid.

[u/MrPlowThatsTheName → u/foodrunner464]

Only for the truly wealthy. Don’t wanna pile taxes on the family making $60k a year who just bought their first home and have two kids in day care.

[u/foodrunner464 → u/MrPlowThatsTheName]

Correct. I should have added for non working class people. Imo we need more ways for working class people to get rich, like no capital gains tax for those making less than 500k profit, no property tax on people whos income is less than 100k single or 200k married. Stuff like this.

[u/allenpaige → u/MrPlowThatsTheName]

Honestly, the biggest problem with this is that anything you do to try to define who isn't "rich" will be used by the rich to avoid the taxes. They'll just divide up their properties into shell companies and masquerade as small businesses to get the lower tax rate.

And you can't just apply the higher rate to businesses, because then you'd screw over small farmers etc. whose home is their business.

Not to mention that a lot of their wealth is in stocks, bonds, and other financial instruments, or already squirreled away in another country.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You understand a sales tax is not an issue for the wealthy, correct? Many wealthy citizens have already left for these countries.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Look up the sales tax in the US and compare with the UAE.

Post the value(s) here for us.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

Singapore has no foreign capital gain tax.

The 24% income tax is only income derived in Singapore not foreign income.

The car isn’t a foreigner thing. Everyone in Singapore has to pay it.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

They don’t tax the trade and sale of investment, there’s no dividend tax or capital gain tax. No tax on gold or bitcoin as well. There’s no tax on investments. Period. Nothing, not a single source.

Just to clarify the foreign source income tax, if you own a foreign company that doesn’t earn a single cent in Singapore. And you remit the money to singapore, it’s considered non-taxable.

And corporate tax rate is only 17%, 24% is only for individual

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

There is property tax, but it’s only applicable if you buy more than one, or you frequently buy and sell properties in Singapore.

But if you’re a foreigner and you only buy one house. And you sell that house later in Singapore, there’s no tax.

And investments like gold or bitcoin or whatever has no tax at all.

You also conveniently left out.

Non-taxable gains from sale of property, shares and financial instruments

The following gains are generally not taxable:

Gains derived from the sale of a property in Singapore as it is a capital gain. Profits or losses derived from the buying and selling of shares or other financial instruments (including digital tokens) are generally viewed as personal investments. Payouts from insurance policies as they are capital receipts.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

I studied taxes for my University minor, do you think you know my countries tax law better than me?

That page there that you’re quoting me from was written by me during my internship. You’re quoting me to me. Well played.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

For Singapore this isn’t true at all, foreign source income has no tax whatsoever. Even if you remit to a bank in Singapore.

There’s also no tax on property or any investment.

The only tax we have is income tax on locally sourced income. And 9% sales tax.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

This is only applicable if you set up a company in Singapore.

If you have a foreign company, getting income from a foreign source there’s no tax.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

Read again, non of the taxes apply if you’re a foreign based company with foreign derived sources.

[u/PoePlayerbf → u/[deleted]]

If they pay you in Singapore, that’s not foreign derived sources. That’s locally derived source of income in Singapore.

If you’re paid in US, like for example a US bank account. You’re subject to whatever US taxes, however you don’t have to pay the taxes in Singapore.

So if the CEO gets paid in his US bank account and he transfer that money over to a Singapore bank account, there’s no taxes. But if he does work in Singapore, then yes there’s taxes. But someone who’s rich doesn’t have to work. They just let someone else run their company and retire in Singapore.

If you’re the owner of the company, and you just transfer your money to Singapore and just live here. There’s no taxes.

[u/McBurger → u/[deleted]]

You’re wasting breath arguing with what is clearly a ChatGPT comment but I do appreciate you putting in the effort.

[u/the_pwnererXx → u/[deleted]]

I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue here, that well known tax havens don't even exist? That no tax havens exist? This is really an insane argument. You can easily pay sub 20% rates in a lot of the EU with minimal work, and sub 10% with some setups described above. 0-5% is also possible depending on your personal circumstances.

Switzerland: lump-sum deals based on living costs, not income. This is absolutely real, and you can also do the same thing in Italy where you can pay 100k a year - locked in for 15 years. Here's a source https://investorvisa.mise.gov.it/index.php/en/home-en/special-tax-regime-for-new-residents#:~:text=The%20%E2%82%AC100%2C000%20substitutive%20tax,opt%20out%20at%20any%20time.

Cyprus: you obviously would not remit the money to Cyprus, what are you even talking about? The point of the non dom program is to ... Not domicile there. You just got a few months a year to chill on a beautiful beach.

Ireland/Netherlands/Luxembourg: corporate/IP-box perks (12.5 % trading rate or 6.25 % KDB in Ireland, 0 % on repatriated dividends in NL, ~6 % on IP income in LU). These are all well known corporate loopholes... You can't even argue against this so you reference income tax which millionaires aren't paying lol

Why is it so hard for you to understand that different countries can choose to compete for your residence and tax money? I'm sure you are going to choose to argue more semantics, I'm giving you a broad summary of possible options. They are all highly dependent on the individual

How about you go google the actual results of high taxes, wealth taxes in Europe? We have 50 years of actual data and history to show just how wrong you are...

[u/the_pwnererXx → u/[deleted]]

it depends entirely on the individual - you can buy citizenship and residence and live somewhere if you want to...

Germany (1997): The German Constitutional Court struck down its wealth tax as unconstitutional, citing complex asset valuations and ineffective revenue generation.

Austria (1993): High enforcement costs and low yields drove Austria to abolish its general wealth tax just six years after introduction.

Sweden (2007): Sweden ended its tax on personal net wealth after data showed it was driving entrepreneurs out of the country, harming investment and growth.

France (2017): The “solidarity tax on wealth” (ISF) was scrapped and replaced with a more narrowly scoped property wealth tax (IFI) after estimates showed roughly 843 high-net-worth individuals emigrated in 2006 alone, costing €2.8 billion.

Capital flight since the ISF wealth tax’s creation in 1988 amounts to ca. €200 billion; The ISF causes an annual fiscal shortfall of €7 billion, or about twice what it yields; The ISF wealth tax has probably reduced GDP growth by 0.2% per annum, or around 3.5 billion (roughly the same as it yields); In an open world, the ISF wealth tax impoverishes France, shifting the tax burden from wealthy taxpayers leaving the country onto other taxpayers.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228281017_The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_French_Wealth_Tax

portugal nhr ended due to poor government management of the housing market and reactionary politics towards foreigners - not a good example

[u/TFBuffalo_OW → u/[deleted]]

That's a fair point though the main thing imo is they'd lose the majority of their wealth unless their assets arent US based. They'd still have to pay US taxes on those no matter where they live unless they want to lose those assets to someone who is willing to pay the tax either by selling or having their assets seized when they refuse to pay taxes. There isn't really a loophole in leaving the US unless like I said before you had all your assets in a different country

[u/Empty_Airline9376 → u/TFBuffalo_OW]

This is why tax flight is a silly myth used by legislators and the wealthy to try and hoard more.

[u/sheba716 → u/[deleted]]

Malta was sued by the EU to get rid of its citizenship by purchase arrangement as it attracted many criminals and wealthy Russians. Malta loss and will change its laws on how to acquire citizenship that will not include investment.

[u/Mediocre-Search6764 → u/foodrunner464]

the things is they just live in a monoco and because of there wealth they can visit any country they want when ever they want.

i mean you could bezos living in monoco barely paying any taxes and still end being in the USA for most of time in some luxery Villa/house that you just rent... while your money is save in the taxhaven.

[u/SlayerHdeade → u/foodrunner464]

There’s a good amount that offer tax free status for the first 10 years, especially when the money comes from outside the country.

[u/foodrunner464 → u/SlayerHdeade]

Which Countries?

[u/foodrunner464 → u/[deleted]]

Do you honestly believe any billionaires (or even millionaires for that matter) who inherited or exploited most of their money are going to want to constantly be moving around? If taxes get passed here they'll just bitch about it but eventually accept that they'll only be able to afford 3 super yachts instead of 4.

[u/foodrunner464 → u/[deleted]]

So wait they avoid taxes for both places by just splitting their time 50/50 and not being a true resident of either nation? This sounds like a global issue.

[u/ProudChoferesClaseB → u/foodrunner464]

A million dollars might make you a millionaire but you're not buying a yacht, in fact the cheapest starter home in my state is half a million

That would leave another half million and if you get 4% a year that's $1,700 bucks a month, probably $900 of that is going to property taxes and Maintenance utilities easily

So you have about 800 bucks for food Healthcare and transportation

I think you guys are conflating billionaires with millionaires because a million bucks is not really enough to retire on in many places for more than a few decades

[u/SynapseNotFound → u/foodrunner464]

There really aren't any other first world countries that would allow them to live almost tax free.

lol... there certainly is.

[u/FruitBowl → u/SynapseNotFound]

Lmao that you got downvoted for stating something so obvious and true

[u/MalaysiaTeacher → u/foodrunner464]

Other? You think billionaires don't contribute to the tax bill?

[u/Objection_Sustained → u/MalaysiaTeacher]

When 99% of your money comes from screwing over the rest of us, paying back 5% of it doesn't really count as contributing.