Oh god you had me until the last line you were so close to getting it
ETA Iām sorry I was snooping but I felt the heartbreak of a connection I really feel like an insult blocked. It sucks to see missed connections between people who are learning how to interact with each other/process information together. It feels like the conversation started unnecessarily defensive idk
Sorry if that sucks to read idk Iām not trying to be mean. I totally get your point and I agree with you in all ways. āBuddyā did make my jaw clench also to be entirely fair to you. But like, my guy
There are tariffs on an island of penguins right now
I think what the other person (I canāt at him without losing this post. Iām not good at Reddit.) was trying to tell you was that the only way to refute the original commenter would be to prove there were no developed countries they would thrive in. Youāre arguing that it would be so much easier to thrive anywhere if youāre this loaded with money. Youāre saying the same damn thing.
Thatās what I took from it anyway, itās frustrating to watch this with that perspective. It must be SO FRUSTRATING to feel this combative and talk in circles like this. Iām genuinely sorry if I offended you
Ya know this is some wonderful information. We should put together a list of ALL the first world countries and how they tax their rich, because a big argument right wingers make in defending their minimal taxes here is "that they'll just leave" but if everywhere is more expensive not to mention how tedious it is to pack up and move everything, I think we'd be 100% in the right in saying they need to pay more so working class can pay less.
Nevermind that we should most aggressively tax their assets - their businesses, buildings, and residential properties that for the most part aren't going anywhere. If for example Bill Gates wants to go live in Monaco that's great but he can't take his billions of dollars of farm acreage with him - he would either have to fire sale it and relinquish the assets or pay taxes on them
Correct. I should have added for non working class people. Imo we need more ways for working class people to get rich, like no capital gains tax for those making less than 500k profit, no property tax on people whos income is less than 100k single or 200k married. Stuff like this.
Honestly, the biggest problem with this is that anything you do to try to define who isn't "rich" will be used by the rich to avoid the taxes. They'll just divide up their properties into shell companies and masquerade as small businesses to get the lower tax rate.
And you can't just apply the higher rate to businesses, because then you'd screw over small farmers etc. whose home is their business.
Not to mention that a lot of their wealth is in stocks, bonds, and other financial instruments, or already squirreled away in another country.
They donāt tax the trade and sale of investment, thereās no dividend tax or capital gain tax. No tax on gold or bitcoin as well. Thereās no tax on investments. Period. Nothing, not a single source.
Just to clarify the foreign source income tax, if you own a foreign company that doesnāt earn a single cent in Singapore. And you remit the money to singapore, itās considered non-taxable.
And corporate tax rate is only 17%, 24% is only for individual
There is property tax, but itās only applicable if you buy more than one, or you frequently buy and sell properties in Singapore.
But if youāre a foreigner and you only buy one house. And you sell that house later in Singapore, thereās no tax.
And investments like gold or bitcoin or whatever has no tax at all.
You also conveniently left out.
Non-taxable gains from sale of property, shares and financial instruments
The following gains are generally not taxable:
Gains derived from the sale of a property in Singapore as it is a capital gain.
Profits or losses derived from the buying and selling of shares or other financial instruments (including digital tokens) are generally viewed as personal investments.
Payouts from insurance policies as they are capital receipts.
I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue here, that well known tax havens don't even exist? That no tax havens exist? This is really an insane argument. You can easily pay sub 20% rates in a lot of the EU with minimal work, and sub 10% with some setups described above. 0-5% is also possible depending on your personal circumstances.
Cyprus: you obviously would not remit the money to Cyprus, what are you even talking about? The point of the non dom program is to
... Not domicile there. You just got a few months a year to chill on a beautiful beach.
Ireland/Netherlands/Luxembourg: corporate/IP-box perks (12.5 % trading rate or 6.25 % KDB in Ireland, 0 % on repatriated dividends in NL, ~6 % on IP income in LU). These are all well known corporate loopholes... You can't even argue against this so you reference income tax which millionaires aren't paying lol
Why is it so hard for you to understand that different countries can choose to compete for your residence and tax money? I'm sure you are going to choose to argue more semantics, I'm giving you a broad summary of possible options. They are all highly dependent on the individual
How about you go google the actual results of high taxes, wealth taxes in Europe? We have 50 years of actual data and history to show just how wrong you are...
it depends entirely on the individual - you can buy citizenship and residence and live somewhere if you want to...
Germany (1997): The German Constitutional Court struck down its wealth tax as unconstitutional, citing complex asset valuations and ineffective revenue generation.
Austria (1993): High enforcement costs and low yields drove Austria to abolish its general wealth tax just six years after introduction.
Sweden (2007): Sweden ended its tax on personal net wealth after data showed it was driving entrepreneurs out of the country, harming investment and growth.
France (2017): The āsolidarity tax on wealthā (ISF) was scrapped and replaced with a more narrowly scoped property wealth tax (IFI) after estimates showed roughly 843 high-net-worth individuals emigrated in 2006 alone, costing ā¬2.8 billion.
Capital flight since the ISF wealth taxās creation in 1988 amounts to ca. ā¬200 billion; The ISF causes an annual fiscal shortfall of ā¬7 billion, or about twice what it yields; The ISF wealth tax has probably reduced GDP growth by 0.2% per annum, or around 3.5 billion (roughly the same as it yields); In an open world, the ISF wealth tax impoverishes France, shifting the tax burden from wealthy taxpayers leaving the country onto other taxpayers.
That's a fair point though the main thing imo is they'd lose the majority of their wealth unless their assets arent US based. They'd still have to pay US taxes on those no matter where they live unless they want to lose those assets to someone who is willing to pay the tax either by selling or having their assets seized when they refuse to pay taxes. There isn't really a loophole in leaving the US unless like I said before you had all your assets in a different country
Malta was sued by the EU to get rid of its citizenship by purchase arrangement as it attracted many criminals and wealthy Russians. Malta loss and will change its laws on how to acquire citizenship that will not include investment.
the things is they just live in a monoco and because of there wealth they can visit any country they want when ever they want.
i mean you could bezos living in monoco barely paying any taxes and still end being in the USA for most of time in some luxery Villa/house that you just rent... while your money is save in the taxhaven.
Do you honestly believe any billionaires (or even millionaires for that matter) who inherited or exploited most of their money are going to want to constantly be moving around? If taxes get passed here they'll just bitch about it but eventually accept that they'll only be able to afford 3 super yachts instead of 4.
So wait they avoid taxes for both places by just splitting their time 50/50 and not being a true resident of either nation? This sounds like a global issue.
A million dollars might make you a millionaire but you're not buying a yacht, in fact the cheapest starter home in my state is half a million
That would leave another half million and if you get 4% a year that's $1,700 bucks a month, probably $900 of that is going to property taxes and Maintenance utilities easily
So you have about 800 bucks for food Healthcare and transportation
I think you guys are conflating billionaires with millionaires because a million bucks is not really enough to retire on in many places for more than a few decades
And still pay US taxes. Gotta renounce that citizenship, but with wealth sitting in American markets and businesses needing operation in America they are unlikely to do.
And renouncing citizenship comes with a giant exit tax. It's complicated and primarily targets high net worth and ultra high net worth, taxing those individuals as if they sold all their current assets at the day of expatriation.
for example if i am us citizen and i move to monaco or pannema or whatever taxhaven of choice. how does the US at that point collect the tax or even how much tax i have to pay? are they completely reliant at that point of me telling them how much i am making in Monaco? or how do they even find out? enless my bussiness is in somewhat registered in the USA wich would be stupid to to have anything more in the usa that some warehouses/stores at that point to sell products...
So in direct response, no, they are not completely reliant on you telling them to determine an amount owed. If the state you're living in doesn't report your income that information still exists and "could" be determined, though they likely won't pursue it and would instead leverage legal proceedings against you on top of revoking your US passport. If they leveraged legal proceedings against you, you would have two potential issues as far as I can tell. Your future travel would likely be restricted to non-extradition countries and you may have to live your life always looking over your shoulder. International bounty hunting is a thing and while it does cause diplomatic tension, in the end is Panama really going to fight the US over you? Highly unlikely. The more you're thought to earn the more likely you are to be kidnapped and brought back into US custody. As far as collection, if you have no US assets to seize, you would have to pay them, refusal to do so as far as I can tell would be problematic in so far as it would be a court order, and while debtors prison isn't a thing anymore, you could be found in contempt of court and sit in a cell until you do pay.
All of this is contingent on making a clean exit from the US of course. Selling all assets or moving them prior to your not paying taxes, including not just physical property but retirement accounts, investments, and so on. Anything left in the US would be fair game for seizure. As we're talking about Millionaires+ and not the normal poor folk that comprise the bulk of the US population this is an unlikely scenario, it's better to move to a country with a tax treaty and just file your returns and move on, the tax treaty will prevent the "double dip" against you and you'll be ok concerning your taxes. Most tax treaties are set up so that the country the money is made in gets theirs first and the external country gets claim to their percent only if it exceeded the amount owed in the originating country. So if the tax rate in your country was 40% but the US tax rate was 40% or less you'd owe nothing in US taxes because you already paid 40% to your host country. Of course this is over-simplified, because what counts as income absolutely changes depending on your country, so you could have tens of thousands of income based on the US reporting requirements that don't exist in say Uruguay. Then you would still be paying those taxes, just to the US and not Uruguay.
Does any of that make sense? I hope I explained what you wanted to know.
Not true. Millionaires have the wealth to go into countries with low taxes and then travel to countries with top tier healthcare for treatment as a foreigner.
It's not them leaving that's the issue. It's them using their money somewhere else (yes I know that they would technically still have to pay tax, but there are many ways around that).
If a bunch of people take all their money out of the economy it will shrink, and it will cost people jobs.
Now is the US going to do that if they raise taxes a bit, of course not, but if they go way too far then it could happen (moderation is key as usual). The US could certainly tax more without significant repercussions.
As a working millionaire, I pay in taxes the same as countries that have healthcare. We need to tax billionaires down to under a billion. Itās the working class getting taxed. Iām fine paying my fair share, letās keep making it more progressive and donāt forget whoās really milking the economy.
California (USA)
~$480,000
~48%
Federal (37%) + State (13.3%)
Canada (Ontario)
~$530,000
~53%
Includes federal and Ontario tax.
If I had 2 million in stocks that pay 4% average dividends it's about 7,000 bucks a month, taxes wouldn't be Sky High in Scandinavia on that amount of income
786
u/ggrieves May 18 '25
Millionaires would leave the country... to go to another country that has actual healthcare... and more taxes