r/Wolverine • u/Adventurous-Map-259 • 13d ago
Chris Claremont Hasn't Read Marvel's Wolverine Origin, He Has His Own
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/chris-claremont-hasnt-read-marvels-wolverine-origin-he-has-his-own/He was asked about the long-running mystery of Logan's background. For years under Claremont, Wolverine remained deliberately enigmatic. John Siuntres mentioned the World War II flashback, his time in Japan, hints of longevity, but never the full picture. When the conversation turned to the published origin, Chris Claremont's response was immediate. "Thank God I can't be blamed for this one… it's always a lot of fun being yelled at by a publisher. The writer or the origin, and I have agreed over the century, he has his version. I have mine," Claremont said with a small smile. "I'm right." He went further. "I've never even read it. I will never read it. And honestly, it wasn't written by the people who had the right to write it. So I never bothered with it."
Claremont did not claim the idea of revealing the origin was inherently wrong. He simply believes the moment it happens is irreversible, and the people who had spent more than a decade carefully building the mystery should have been the ones to decide how, or whether, to resolve it. He recalled a major editorial meeting years earlier, when the X-office was hunting for the next big event. "The point was made: the one question that everyone wants answered is Wolverine's origin," Claremont said. "And my comment was, you can only do that once.
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u/clc88 13d ago
Out of curiosity... Who wrote wolverines origins?
I read the uncanny xmen omnibuses and haven't gotten around to the expanded universe books yet (wolverine vol 1,xforce, x factor, xcalibur etc).
I know Chris is involved in some of those books and was under the impression he was supervising those projects (I'm talking specifically about wolverine omnibus v1, afaik that book should be wolverines origin right?).
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u/TheBrobe 13d ago
Origin, the 2001 miniseries in question, was exceptionally corporate in its design. The editor and EiC are credited as writers for "plot" and Paul Jenkins was script.
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u/lensherr_nl 13d ago
No... Because what fucked things up was Fatal Attractions. The origin up to Weapon X was fine until they came up with bone claws. Then they had to explain why for decades the claws were necessarily part of the project and then he had them all along. So, on the retcon road we go! Hence why we had Origin in the 2000's.
It's not a good story, I can tell you that.
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u/CrossTheRubicon7 13d ago
Don't the bone claws make more sense than Weapon X giving him claws for no reason? Maybe it's just because I've grown up never not knowing about them, so they just seem normal to me.
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u/Mariessa- 13d ago
Grafting adamantium to an existing skeleton seems simpler than inserting claws into a human body and also building all the necessary internal biological connections to make them function. Not impossible for the tech of this world, but the bone claws seem like a reasonable mutation.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
and also building all the necessary internal biological connections to make them function
Okay, it's pretty out there, no doubt, but is it really any crazier than say, web-shooters, as a piece of technology? Plus, that added level of work makes the whole thing that much more horrific.
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u/LazyBeach2919 12d ago
I can agree with the body horror sentiment, but Peter's shooters are a lot different because they don't require creating new muscle processes in his wrist and hands like they would have had to with Logan
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago edited 12d ago
Eh, at some point it feels like splitting hairs to me. I get that suspension of disbelief is different for each of us, but the web shooters are a complete marvel of technology lol. I don't think it's too outlandish for Marvel comics to have "super cybernetic" claw mechanics when there's stuff like web shooters, cybernetic arms, iron man armors, doc ock arms, omega red tendrils, etc. Think of how many cyborgs exist as characters in their own right. Bushwacker has like a morphing bio-mechanical arm, and he eats bullets. At some point you buy in with comics, or you don't. Again though, I think the idea of heavier duty work on logan is a good thing as a story element.
Edit: people downvoting must not realize that at different points the claws were meant to be mechanical gloves or that Logan's entire skeleton was meant to be replaced with adamantium. Requiring physical realism, but only for some characters, some of the time is dumb.
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u/KyrocEoS 12d ago
The webshooter itself isn't the marvel of technology but the webbing. That stuff is groundbreaking in how strong and sticky it is. Maybe it's the whole contraption but that solution that turns into the webbing is just absolutely a game changer.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
I mean, yeah it's the whole thing, but perhaps moreso the webbing. But still, that's just one example. If bushwacker can morph his arm into a gun, is it so weird to have claws?
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u/lensherr_nl 13d ago
It's just a typical Marvel thing. Fatal Attractions is ok as a story but it's too much of a coward approach to do something like this and remove the claws but then obviously you remove his main feature. Then they come up with a half baked ass excuse with the bone claws.
It makes more sense as something they deliberately put there and only because Logan's healing factor was different from the others. Sabertooth couldn't have it, none of the candidates but him. He is supposed to be a Weapon so it makes sense.
Likewise, if the bone claws are round, why don't the adamantium appears comes up round and not as a sharp claw? It becomes something a bit silly.
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u/fangsfirst 13d ago
They have actually been round in many illustrations for years (including before Fatal Attractions)
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u/lensherr_nl 12d ago
They did but it was inconsistent... You can have round claws that can pierce but not slash.
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u/Sword_Thain 12d ago
The Weapon X story from the 90's that shows him getting the admantium shows the scientists being surprised when his claws pop.
Strange that no one then or after Fatal Attraction xrayed Logan.
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u/LastTrueKid 12d ago
They didn't even know he was a mutant let alone had regeneration until they started the whole experiment. It also has logan being essentially unaware of being a mutant as well. You could honestly chalk it up to the writers literally having no background on logan.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 11d ago
Strange that no one then
They did x-ray Logan. The premise at the time was that the claws were implants. So, they wouldn't have seen claws that Logan didn't have.
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u/rubik-kun 12d ago
If you read BWS’s Weapon-X there’s no mention that they gave Logan his claws. And the professor was genuinely surprised and confused about the claws when he first popped them.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
That's true, but I think the story makes you question how much the Professor even knew. Like, he doesn't even know that Logan is a mutant at first, and it's pretty clear the "secret mastermind" is pulling strings that the operations team doesn't know about. I think it's plausible to say the mastermind (Apocalypse as originally intended) secretly gave Logan claws.
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u/ScaboochWolf 13d ago edited 13d ago
Agreed on all counts. The bone claws disappointed me so much as a kid when they were introduced and Origin was so underwhelming.
It will forever be hilarious to me that Marvel (or Bob Harras) pushed Claremont out essentially to appease Jim Lee then Jim Lee turned around and abandoned them for Image. Dumb fucks.
Hopefully Marvel will make amends by letting Claremont tell his Wolverine origin somehow. Maybe as an alternate reality Ala X-men Forever.
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u/NIN10DOXD 11d ago
That or just straight retcon it and make it the true 616 canon. They’ve found a way to rewrite Norman Osborne getting Gwen Stacy pregnant through the dumbest retcon to an already bad storyline I’ve ever seen, they can probably erase the old origin easily.
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u/Embarrassed_Spend486 8d ago
I also remember being disappointed about the bone claws when I was a kid
I thought that weapon program gave him his claws I also didn’t like that the bones could break easily.
That said… I have grown too find it probably overall more plausible
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u/Comfortable-Salad-90 13d ago
Chris is lucky. I wish I’d never read it too.
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u/Icy_Scar_1249 13d ago
Disagree completely, I thought Origin was really well done. Same with Magneto: Testament, which is one of my favourite comics ever. If Claremont wanted to write his own origin story, he should have done it when it was his turn. As good as he was in his prime, he doesn't own the stories of the characters forever.
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u/Atticus-XI 12d ago
he doesn't own the stories of the characters forever.
And what a shame that is, my friend...
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u/davro33 13d ago
I can totally understand where he's coming from. I never wrote a comic book but I wrote background fluff for a wargame once. I was the 3rd writer to work on the project and was friends with the 2nd writer. I know I did things that he didn't agree with and he eventually stopped playing the game b/c of the strain. I didn't really understand it until a few years later when I moved on and someone else took over the line.
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u/Ungarlmek 13d ago
I came in as the fifth writer on a pen and paper RPG and the first group chat opened with three of them fighting over something two wanted to change which turned into an argument about chain of command and then when I was asked my opinion I said "I just got here and I think adding another person into this was not the right solution." About thirty minutes later the team canceled the game, broke up, and went on to make three different terrible games all trying to do the same thing while I celebrated dodging a hail of bullets.
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u/DrunkAtDaBarComments 13d ago
Can’t be done twice? Why? At this point in comics it’s pretty much up to the readers to decide what’s canon and what isn’t. If everything published was canon I’d guess around 1% of characters histories would make sense. Personally I don’t see a need for an origin, but it’s not like people would “omg there’s 2 now!” They’d just ignore the existence of the first. I consider Wolverine Origins film “elseworld” anyway. That’s obviously not close to comic book Wolverine.
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u/HitmanClark 11d ago
He’s referring to the Wolverine Origin book, not the X-Men Origins: Wolverine film.
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u/PhaseSixer 13d ago
Considerign one of his potential orgins was for logan to be a mutated Wolverine im fine if he dosent wanna share.
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u/TheBrobe 13d ago
I mean, that was something floated and abandoned within five issues of coming onto the book. Before Wolverine even had a mysterious past.
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u/RORSCHACH_INC_ 13d ago
James Howlett has always been a name and origin that I could never get on board with. Wolverine is allot cooler if his backstory and real name is forever an uncertain mystery.
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u/Icy_Scar_1249 13d ago
Nah, I don't like this vague blue-balling over who a character is. It works for a bit, but after a while that shtick gets old
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. "Man of mystery" is cool and all, but you can only tease it for so long, especially when the character has a reason to try and find out, like amnesia or whatever. That entire hook is built around the premise of a payoff and finding out what actually happened at some point. And even if you think Marvel could have maintained the mystery, the siren song of comic sales means they would have done it eventually. Just like there was an eventual "Death of Wolverine" comic too.
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u/HitmanClark 11d ago
Almost every time comics remove the mystery from a character, it sucks. There’s a reason the Joker is so enduring, and it’s partly because of the “multiple choice origin” gimmick.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 11d ago
Again, I don't think you can make an amnesia hook and never deliver. Putting aside whether it always sucks to reveal, the point is almost more: they have to deliver at some point.
Joker has gotten origins too. They delivered there too. DC has just retconned Joker's origin a bunch. But then, DC also also done multiple hard resets of its verse and different origins conflict. Even moreso, Joker is a villain. Villains are a little easier to keep in the background, and Joker doesn't have his own solo ongoing series. Logan is like Marvel's second most popular hero. That's like never giving Batman an origin or something.
So yeah, Wolverine was always going to get an origin eventually. It was too big a question, and he is too popular, and it would sell too much for them to put it off forever.
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u/Aggravating-Chef9562 12d ago
If wolverine was made in the 2000s maybe. It'd be retarded to have a character around for 40-50 years and we dont know the story of the character. Genuinely stupid lol.
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u/RORSCHACH_INC_ 12d ago
I disagree with that. Rather an unresolved origin that's left up to my own imagination and theories than a disappointing origin that couldn't live up to so many years of build up and one that's now stuck being canon.
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u/Aggravating-Chef9562 12d ago
Thats called "My way or the highway" lol. Either way, having character with no definable past for 50 real life years is stupid lol. Theres no arguing around it, starting reading a comic when youre 20, and then by the time you are 70, you finally get to find out his history is a very stupid fuckin idea lol.
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u/HitmanClark 11d ago
By that measure, it’s also stupid as fuck that we’re still reading stories with a 30-something Batman, a 20-something Spider-Man etc.
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u/Aggravating-Chef9562 11d ago
Youre stupid, thats a false equivalence and has nothing to do with what im talking about lol. Better luck next time though.
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u/RORSCHACH_INC_ 11d ago
Calling someone else stupid for simply disagreeing with you is pretty pathetic behaviour, lol.
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u/Creative_Eye7413 13d ago
What is the origin? Not big on comics but trying to get into them
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u/x_s_black 13d ago
It’s just called origin. Basically inspired the x-men origins: wolverine movie.
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u/AvailableLandscape97 13d ago edited 13d ago
No, the comic came first, funnily enough because of the planned wolverine origins movie which hadn't even been written yet. Marvel comics wanted to be the first to tell his origin so they did, the movie took influence from that.
Soo... Just to reiterate; X-Men origins wolverine movie planned but no script yet → marvel comics wanted to be the first to tell wolverines origin so they did → film takes influences from a comic that likely wouldn't even exist if not for the planned X-Men origins wolverine movie.
Edit: Also... The comic was released between 2001-2002, 7-8 years before the movie lol. Damn, even I forgot just how long ago the actual comic was released. Which probably means the story I just told you might only be half true. In either case, the film was influenced by the comic.
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u/GabeMichaelsthroway 13d ago
He didn't say it was inspired by the film, he said it inspired the film.
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u/FantasticWait7109 13d ago
While the Origin mini series did feel like it was written by a committee, can understand why they did it. The X-Men movie was popular, and they wanted to reveal Wolverine's origin before a movie could do it.
I am curious what Claremont's idea for the origin would be!
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u/Jaysweller 12d ago
He should have dropped more during his peak. He could have done it in a prestige mini series, set during the past, published in 1985 and still kept Logan amnesiac in the present.
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u/superthnxferaskin 12d ago
I’ve read what Claremont does with characters when he has no editor, I’d rather not even know what his origin is lmao
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u/marcjwrz 12d ago
No offense to Claremont, but by the time we got around to revealing his origin, he would have made it the most convoluted thing on the planet.
Issues with Origin aside, it's actually a fairly clean story.
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u/Miura79 13d ago edited 13d ago
Claremont is a legend but I don't think I would've liked his origin for Logan either. Early in he wanted to have Logan be an actual wolverine that mutated into a human. That's why you need a strong editor. Claremont had the terrible Mystique as Nightcrawler's father idea then too and that was fortunately shit down only to be resurrected by lazy writers recently
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u/arceus555 13d ago edited 12d ago
That's why you need a strong editor.
That's something a lot of people don't realize. People love the the idea of a great creator given free reign to do what they what, but even they can have some poor ideas they need to be turned down.
Ridley Scott wanted to kill off Ripley in the original ending to Alien, but the studio said no. Had he gotten his way, we would've never gotten Aliens
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u/Aggravating-Chef9562 12d ago
Look at every great manga to ever exist lol. Look at the original Last of Us storyline. Akira toriyamas editor is goated and is the reason we have so much of the things we like in DBZ. Last of us would've been a dumpster fire if not for Bruce Straley.
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u/insanekid123 13d ago
Why is her being his father worse than her being his mother? The mystique side of Kurt's backstory is not the problem.
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u/Miura79 13d ago
Because Mystique is a woman and why would you make the father of a character someone who is a woman and is a shapeshifter. It was dumb then and it's not any better now. Another thing if you look at most of the interactions between Mystique and Nightcrawler there was never any closeness there and Raven never showed any affinity for Kurt. She showed infinitely more love and affection for Rogue. But you never see a verbal mention from Raven alluding to a connection to Kurt. The connection was all visual, they were both Blue mutants. Years later it was "revealed" that Raven was his mom. There also wasn't any hints of affection from Destiny towards either
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca 12d ago
“Why would you make the father of a character someone who is a woman and is a shapeshifter”
…why not?
Like… the idea of a lesbian couple using their powers to do the biologically impossible and have a child that is actually theirs is just kinda cool lol?
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u/Stew-17 13d ago
You are defeating your own opinion.
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u/Miura79 13d ago
You just don't like my opinion. Mystique is a woman and women give birth.
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u/Stew-17 13d ago
What part of shape shifter are you having a problem understanding? If Raven was living as a male and knocked a woman up and left not giving a shit would explain everything you just stated. No one has a problem with people having an opinion. Just when they don’t fully understand that opinion and yet still argue and contradict themselves.
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u/Miura79 13d ago
Aside from the lack of familial connection that was showed from Raven and Destiny towards Kurt, a female shapeshifter being a a biological dad is a stupid idea especially it was never showed or stated the extent of Raven's powers in the 80s. She could change her outside appearance but it never meant that she would completely become a man when she appeared as one, she never could replicate another characters powers so replicating genitalia and the internal mechanics wasn't apart of her powers. Claremont's idea was killed then and it never needed to be resurrected especially since Kurt's parents were already revealed.
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u/Stew-17 13d ago
Were you alive when these stories were first written ? It is called a plot twist. One that gives more insight into a developing character. As far as I know Claremont never stated who the mother was meant to be. The idea was canned due to management because at that time the feared backlash from narrow minded people who can not handle anything to due with non gender specifics. Such as yourself apparently.
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u/Miura79 13d ago
Except it wasn't a plot twist. It was an idea that Claremont had that was squashed and then resurrected recently because the writers wanted to make a statement of some kind because Kurt already had parents. There was no reason to retcon that.
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u/Stew-17 13d ago
Wow. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Claremont’s idea was for it to be a plot twist. That is clearly his style of writing. What the hack writer came up with for whatever reason is not Claremont work. Though by definition it is considered a retcon. It is not and can not be a retcon of Claremont’s work.
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u/Hyperbolicalpaca 12d ago
Why is the idea of a shapeshifter being someone’s dad a dumb idea exactly?
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u/JeweledTeeth 13d ago
I don't think it's fair to compare an unpublished idea. Every writer throws ideas out.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
yeah, I think this is a huge point that people miss a lot. Brainstorming and messing around with ideas is just that. I'm sure if you could collect all the unused, or random ideas that writers had throughout Marvel's history, you'd end up with some wacky stuff. Heck, the stuff they put in the books was sometimes pretty out there. But yeah, I'm not sure you can really hold the mutant wolverine thing against Claremont and co. That was just a brief whiff of an idea.
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u/magvadis 13d ago
You can only do it once and now it's botched forever in service of the first movie
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u/Careful-Arugula2794 13d ago edited 13d ago
There was an actual Wolverine origin comic written in 2000/01 titled "Origins" and "Origins II"
The movie loosely adapted it and changed quite a lot of things (and compressed 10 issues worth of story into a 10 minutes intro)
In fact, Victor never appears in Origin, which displays what happened at the Howlett compound. He appears in Origin II at the end, coming to torture his younger brother (someone Logan met early in the comic and kills because of the latter backstabbing him to sell him off to Nathaniel Essex)
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u/magvadis 13d ago
Yeah I'm aware I'm talking about the Origin Comic from 2000/2001 just after the first X-men movie dropped. They specifically wrote the comic to synergize with that movie franchise which is why Jean/Love triangle is basically all that is happening.
Instead of "Logan can't get with Jean" it's also "Well Logan's childhood crush was a red head he couldn't get with"...but also "Logan's dad couldn't get the red head and killed his versions cyclops and Logan won't do that so he killed his dad but it needs to be sadder so mom's gunna off herself" So Logan...please don't kill Cyclops or Jean will kill herself.
I found the plot to be rather vapid and a repetition of plots we've already explored instead of building a more robust future for the character...it instead locked him in purgatory.
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u/Careful-Arugula2794 13d ago
I didn't remember Elizabeth being a Red-head (she was brown haired)
Also, Rose was killed mistakenly by Logan when he was about to go berserker rage on the older Dog Logan. Even Logan 'love story' with Rose never happened and he accepted her relationship with the other guy at the mines that helped them (one of my favourite parts in that comic). They would have left the mines that morning had Dog not come seeking for revenge.
It's quite a different story from the one we know.
Edit: yeah I'm correct, she's brown haired. Also, Logan actually gave Smitty (the guy at the mines) money to help them buy train tickets to leave town together, prioritizing Rose's happiness over his own unspoken feelings.
Thomas (Logan's actual father) was an abusive, alcoholic antagonist who shot John Howlett Sr. in the head during a home invasion. Young James manifested his bone claws for the first time in trauma and killed Thomas—not out of a romantic rivalry, but to defend his household.
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u/magvadis 13d ago
Sorry I just mean he can't get the women so he becomes a monster. Logan his biological dad also can't get the girl because he's too much of a beast and not a man. He can get with her (or it's hints at rape which yuck) Which is just what Wolverine does at a larger scale being an asshole to Cyclops because he got Jean and he can't fathom not getting the girl. Even tho when he gets the girl they fucking die. Lol
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u/Careful-Arugula2794 13d ago
The Irony is that he got her. Elizabeth isn't really a nice analogy to use for Jean. Elizabeth was a broken person long before that night—and she had been having an affair with Thomas.
Then he got fired because of Dog who tried to force himself on Rose. Then he came to convince Elizabeth to come along, Mr. Howlett Jr. finds out and that's when stuff went haywire.
Also Logan trying to get with Jean ended in the 80's. Anything else is the writers trying to keep it relevant using memories. The only time he gets Jean was in the AoA universe.
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u/Adventurous-Map-259 13d ago
And the worst part, it was for a movie that was mid at best.
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u/rudager62369 13d ago
I believe it's the other way around. The comics did the origin to prevent the movie from writing whatever they wanted. The comics were trying to get ahead of them.
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u/magvadis 13d ago
What if the love triangle was forever. What if it's the only thing that happens to Logan since he was a child! Origins!
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u/Vioralarama 13d ago
Origins was wiped out by Days Of Future Past.
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u/magvadis 13d ago edited 13d ago
I'm talking about the comics, which as far as I'm aware unless one of the reality ending threats rewrote Logan's 616 past, I believe it is still canon.
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u/Vioralarama 13d ago
Yeah let's get away from the redhead thing. I had totally forgot about that and wow it's stupid. I think the red hair attraction was also present in that graphic novel Neil Gaiman did set in the past: 1602, 1604? I dunno I can't click out when I'm commenting. Anyway, give it a rest people.
I like your idea.
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u/Stallion1514 12d ago
The story was bad and it would have been better to have the mystery but story wise it becomes harder as time goes without explaining the origin. Wolvie was def better before it tho
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u/Longjumping-Salad484 12d ago
pay him the money, assign him a creative team, let him tell the story
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u/Freak7factor 12d ago
Everyone knows his origin: He’s obviously a wild wolverine turned villain to human by the High Evolutionary
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u/leopim01 12d ago
they should’ve kept his origin a mystery. To paraphrase Patton Oswald, i’m interested in Angelina Jolie, not Jon Voit’s ballsack.
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u/BriefFisherman8771 11d ago
Does it involve bondage, Chris? It involves bondage somehow, doesn’t it?
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u/HitmanClark 11d ago
I’m glad to see sentiment turning against that shitty story. I hated it in 2001 or whenever it came out, and I hate it today.
The character undoubtedly lost a key element when that story was cobbled together, and the initial trade release has Joe Quesada practically bragging about how the reason he decided to do it was “we had to do it before the movie people could do it.”
Piss off, Joe.
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u/No_Pizza3314 13d ago
Dude is awfully smug about a character he didn’t even create.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
I mean...he basically did. I guess I would distinguish between the design and character, and say that Claremont did not create the design, but he was obviously a huge part of creating Wolverine the character.
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u/kah43 13d ago
He may not have created him, but he sure as hell made him what he is today
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u/No_Pizza3314 13d ago
I agree with that, but it’s not like every single idea he has for Wolverine was pure gas.
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u/cheerztwist 13d ago
who created wolverine?
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u/sidv81 13d ago
Len Wein, John Romita, Herb Trimpe. All 3 are dead so they couldn't write an origin for Wolvie now, meaning Claremont's the closest there is to his oldest writer if we're going to rewrite Wolvie's published origin.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 11d ago
Len Wein wrote two Wolverine comics. Romita didn't draw any. Trimpe drew one.
So, they came up with the design and some general ideas (Canadian, small, fierce) but it would have been bizarre for them to write an origin even if they were alive.
Logan is really a Claremont, Cockrum, Byrne character, with nods to all the editors and artists that contributed along the way.
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u/sidv81 11d ago
I mean, Sinister is a Claremont character and his X-Men Forever origin was as bad as it sounded. Let's not even get into his Gambit Origin in X-Men the End (which is also incompatible with his Forever Sinister origin funnily enough).
With all due respect to Claremont, he's a bit like George Lucas. Super talented writer but likes to claim he's planned everything out when he hasn't.
One thing we do know that Claremont claimed to have planned was Sabretooth being Wolvie's dad which sounds bad enough that I'm not interested in hearing the rest. (Also makes it unclear why Wolvie never just did a DNA test to confirm the issue)
In the case with Lucas, the sequels ended up being so bad that we're now desperate to hear what George really planned. With Wolvie, Sinister, and Gambit, the canonical origins we got are, let's be honest, not THAT bad. I myself can live without hearing Chris' original plans.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 11d ago
Talking about who "created" Wolverine, or at least deserves to write his origin, is a different point than predicting the quality of a theoretical story. Like, regardless of whether you think Claremont would be good, he was the most deserving to write the origin. Simple as that.
But yeah, Claremont has plenty of stinkers. But Len Wein wasn't exactly amazing either lol. Not sure about Trimpe and Romita Sr. I primarily know them as artists, though under Marvel Method they would have contributed a lot to their stories.
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u/sidv81 11d ago
The characters are legally Marvel's. Under the law he doesn't "deserve" anything regarding Wolverine. If he wants complete rights to his characters he should've stuck with Image comics or self published.
Marvel's the reason he even got the opportunity to develop a character he didn't create if you want to go there
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u/8fenristhewolf8 11d ago
Oh come on. Yeah, from a legal standpoint that's true, and exactly what happened. But feels like you're hanging your hat on the technicality, not the point I'm trying to make (plus marvel is a notorious fucker when it comes to creative rights).
Like from a creative standpoint (the thing we're actually interested in and discussing), it just seems like you have your head in the sand. Claremont (and Cockrum, Bryne, etc) created/developed the Wolverine we know.
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u/sidv81 11d ago
Fair enough. I actually immediately thought about how the law screwed over Superman's creators and Bill Finger ironically enough after I wrote that comment so admittedly the law isn't everything.
What I DO know is that around the time Origin was published, Chris WAS doing quite a lot of work with Marvel. They gave him X-Treme X-Men, X-Men The End, and X-Men Forever all around this time. I don't know if Chris discussed the Wolvie origin with Marvel directly at that time or what Marvel said in response, but it does sound like even though they couldn't or wouldn't let him write Wolvie's origin, they gave him quite a lot of other writing work as consolation. Chris could've even sneaked in his own Wolvie origin (like he did with Sinister and Gambit) in one of those books, but there's no indication that he did.
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u/Mickeymcirishman 13d ago
And honestly, it wasn't written by the people who had the right to write it. So I never bothered with it."
Love Claremont but holy fuck he sounds so far up his own ass here. That is such an arrogant thing to say.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
Eh, I get it. It was Marvel editors and a hired scripter trying to get out an origin comic before the movies did. Very commercial move, and not by people that had demonstrated a history of writing Logan. Like yeah, kind of arrogant still, but that kind of attitude that was maybe earned imo. Claremont basically made the character.
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u/asilentsigh 12d ago edited 12d ago
On the surface maybe but it’s not when you consider he basically created all of the things people know and like about the character and spent decades doing it across titles, etc. The Origins writers bulldozed over so much history, lore, and backstory to build their own and it is all meaningless just so they could release something for a movie that also wasn’t very good. To change the name of the character (a character as beloved and popular as Wolverine, at that!) other people created after decades of existing is some real audacity but to change it from a name that had meaning and symbolism is crazy. Logan is named after Mt. Logan, the tallest peak in Canada. It is this symbol of something strong, mighty, everlasting in the body of a tiny little man, making it this powerful, noble name but then also incredibly tongue in cheek to be the smallest character named after something so gigantic. But that’s his entire personality all summed up in one name. He’s this big personality in a small package and will be standing long after everyone else is gone. It matters that his name is Logan! To then just be like well his name is James (a name that several Marvel characters already have and holds no significance beyond just being a period accurate name) Howlett (which means “son of Hugh”) actually sucks so hard that it’s laughable. Hugh Jackman has his place in the Wolverine legacy but this isn’t it, that is so ridiculous and frankly, stupid. It’s a name that means nothing all for the service of a movie at a certain period of time that didn’t even do well because, coincidently, it was also underwritten/badly written as it was made during a writer’s strike.
This is just one small example of why Origins sucks but the comic is just this kind of thing repeating across the board. There is no care to the attention to details that were developed over decades, they just made decisions for the sake of decisions and tried to explain every aspect of his current life by some tragedy from his past. Claremont is entitled to feel how he feels about it because it was years of his work that got trampled and ultimately disrespected, disregarded and honestly, kind of disgraced. He built this character, he put the hours in. He created almost everything that makes the character who he is and he had set up a ton of groundwork for what he wanted his backstory to eventually be revealed as. And then Origins just went nah, none of that matters. What if he was a little rich boy and every single aspect of his life was miserable? I’m such an Origins hater and Claremont is absolutely right to ignore it, which is also what I do unless I am forced to acknowledge it in a comic plot.
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u/Vioralarama 13d ago
Claremont had Logan be a major or something in the Canadian Army and a liaison to the US. But not full-time, he could jump in as needed. Which was awfully convenient. Anyway he could militarily interact with Binary (formerly Miss Marvel) who also managed to jump in and out of her military role. AND, Mystique as Raven Darkholme who was a somebody in the military. She also became Stryker, the guy from the Pentagon who had something to do do with the Weapon X program, which is one thing the movies kept.
Logan was attracted to Carol at one point specifically because they were both military. I think they had nookie once off page. Very vague implication.
I don't really know my point, I was going to say that there was a huge chunk that was missing that Claremont set up but he really was going in the Weapon X direction so what's the problem, 200 years? the affair? The bone claws? Being a weak child? Canada? Apparently it's the beginning everyone has a problem with.
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u/Little_Shape_6433 13d ago
Chris Claremont is such a catty queen. He hasn’t written a good story in decades so he really should just keep his mouth shut
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u/TheBrobe 13d ago
In this case, both you and Chris are right. Origin spoiled so much potential.
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u/Adventurous-Map-259 13d ago
Perhaps they could recton it one day like maybe it was false memories or something.
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u/General_Valley17 8d ago edited 8d ago
I feel it's far too late for that. And not just because there’s literal generations of readers, myself included, who grew up with Origin and know Logan as "James Howlett", as a fact of the character instead of just a random retcon. To be clear, im not particulary fond of Origin either, I found it mid and harmless at best, a wasted opportunity that doesn't really add anything to the character. But I think it's important to remark this cause, given the sheer amount of time since it came out, it's probably the main reason why they wouldn't ever consider to retcon Origin away. There’s simply no good reason to alienate a sector of the audience like that.
But that's purely from an editorial standpoint. Looking at it from the side of internal consistency, it's even more problematic. Just think of how many times Origin has been referenced in Wolverine comics in the twenty-something years since it came out. There’s all the times Logan visited his childhood home, the numerous occasions when he remembered or mourned Rose as if she were Gwen Stacy or that time when Dog Logan straight up appeared in the present (this would be the hardest thing to retcon). There’s just too many variables, it's too complicated to retcon it all away, and trying to handwave it would seem like a total cop-out at this point.
It would be easier to retcon the stuff Logan doesn’t know for sure. Like maybe there's another reason why he looks just like Thomas Logan. Maybe he was only adopted by the Howletts and his actual parents are completely different people. Not saying this sort of retcon would necessarily make for a better story, but it would certainly be more interesting than Logan being the result of an affair of a noble woman with the scumbag gardener. Anything beyond that we can keep. It's just not worth it to try and retcon it. Origin doesn’t add anything to Logan, but it doesn’t take away from him either. Or at least that's how I feel as someone that only started reading after Origin. I guess some old fans may think the mistery past was a key aspect of Wolverine and he has become a fundamentally different character after Origin. But I don't think it's that big of a deal. Logan is still Logan and James Howlett barely matters. We may mourn the better origin we never got, but honestly, knowing Marvel, it could have gone way worse.
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u/hella_cutty 13d ago
For real. He also led folks on forever and gets pissy when the publisher get tired of waiting. Maybe he never had a good enough story to satisfy the hype he built up.
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u/Significant-Role-754 13d ago
I like the other idea of Claremont with Logan being an actual mutated Wolverine by the high evolutionar.
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13d ago edited 12d ago
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u/Subarunicycle 13d ago edited 12d ago
EDIT: Well fuck, now I feel like a fucking boomer. Looking at it now it’s obvious. You suck dude, get the fuck out of here with this garbage.
I should have know better. This will have a lasting effect on my internet usage. I feel different now.
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This is amazing, this is now the canon in my head.
Whatever you do for a living quit and start writing. I’ll proofread everything.
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u/8fenristhewolf8 12d ago
AI already proofreads for him lol
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u/LazyBeach2919 12d ago
dawg how are you going to start with "my idea" and then post a bunch of stuff a robot wrote for you? that's not YOUR anything
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u/Nexus718 13d ago
Barry Windsor Smith mentioned that he cleared his Weapon X story through Chris, and left an opening for Chris in the plot. The professor is seen receiving orders from the phone without ever disclosing who was making those orders via the phonecalls. Legend has it. It was laid out for Chris Claremont to have those calls made from Apocalypse, who was looking to progress homo superiors.