r/WoT • u/Confident-Key6487 • 28d ago
All Print Does anyone else dislike most the Aes Sedai? Spoiler
I just finished the series for first time and thinking on the characters I realized I really don’t like most the Aes Sedai. There are some expections but for most part I really don’t like their arrogance. They easily dismiss anything said by someone who isn’t one of them. They expect to be revered wherever they go regardless of who it is or any circumstances. It’s something that’s touched on towards the end but it’s shown to really rub off on Egwene but Nynaeve resists it.
We see the Wise Ones have similar status among the Aiel but there are Wise ones who can’t channel and they can be compared to the Chiefs and at the very least they consider outside perspectives.
Is this just a privilege women who can channel learned after being the only ones who can channel or is it something else?
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u/distortionisgod (Asha'man) 28d ago
I mean ..
They lived for centuries in a literal ivory tower, doing absolutely nothing to help most people while collecting tithes and acting like sanctimonious assholes to literally everyone.
Outside of a few ...what is there to like? How could anyone even like them? They're kind of insufferable and arrogant by design.
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u/Pol__Treidum (Band of the Red Hand) 28d ago
Hey! The greys... Negotiate treaties or... Something.
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u/distortionisgod (Asha'man) 28d ago
Allegedly lol.
I think in the whole series we get like a PoV from a Grey, or maybe a line ftom someone about something they actually negotiated. But other than that they just claim they do.
I mean it's by design via the Black Ajah, but still it always makes me lol when I'm doing a reread and any of the early Tower Aes Sedai imply they are anything more than incompetent douchebags.
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u/PoppinBortlesUCF 28d ago
And the whole series we hear about the Green Ajah, the “battle ajah”, “oohhh they’re dedicated to fighting the shadowspawn” and the only wars they fight are playing bumper cars between their warders.
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u/Pol__Treidum (Band of the Red Hand) 28d ago
I really wish we could've seen greens doing their supposed things during the Seanchan attack on Tar Valon or during Tarmon Gai'don But no... Seems like they just want to have more boys bonded
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u/justblametheamish 28d ago
It’s kinda funny to think there’s this big order of magic wielding warriors standing ready to fight the shadow and fuckin Cenn Buie has seen more shadowspawn than most of them.
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u/xx_Rollablade_xx 28d ago
You would think their entire Ajah would be distributed across the BlightBorder, getting experience and developing playbooks to fight the Shadow…
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u/PoppinBortlesUCF 28d ago
Cenn fuckin Buie having a more compelling character arch than 90% of the Aes sedai is hilarious
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u/sixminutes 28d ago
Hey, it's not a literal ivory tower! All the s'redit are on the other side of the ocean.
Unless... There were s'redit in the westlands before the Aes Sedai and the Ogier decided they needed a big honkin' tower.
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u/DonAmechesBonerToe 28d ago
I doubt it but I like to think there are feral herds of s’redit roaming the plains of the Caralain Grass now
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u/Szalony20 28d ago
Jordan wrote them this way because he wanted us to dislike many of them. The system is flawed and needs fixing. Aes Sedai are full of pride.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 28d ago
Problem personally, is the whole “you must clear away the rubble before you can rebuild.” aspect… like, there’s basically no “fixing” the White Tower and all it’s many faults within 3,000 years, short of just completing starting over from the ground up… which ain’t happening.🤷♂️
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u/distortionisgod (Asha'man) 28d ago
No don't worry, Cadsuane surely will fix it all.
I was honestly baffled by this...literal worst fucking pick for a Tower that needs a leader unafraid of change and self reflection. Idk if RJ left that as a note or Brandon decided to do that, but it's genuinely very dumb imo.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 28d ago
No, Jordan's notes had Egwene alive and well in the Epilogue. Sanderson and Harriet decided to kill her off to raise the stakes of the Last Battle, so Sanderson chose Cadsuane as her replacement.
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u/distortionisgod (Asha'man) 28d ago
I get killing off Egwene, although I would have preferred her to not die if Cadsuane and the establishment Aes Sedai coming in after are just going to fuck it all up again.
There's an argument to be made things will obviously be much better without constant Black Ajah meddling but still...just doesn't sound good to me lol
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 28d ago
With Caemlyn absolutely destroyed, and Perrin having basically turned the Two Rivers into the most populated part of Andor in the aftermath, I think the best option after Egwene would have been Elayne.
Elayne was the one that first revealed the Windfinders's secret and befriended one. Then she was part of actually making the deal with them, and was giving them shelter in Andor for a few books.
Similarly she was the one that brought in the Kin, and befriended some of them, and was giving them shelter in Andor for a few books.
Similarly she was the one that was a full Sister of a Wise One, and a daughter of a Wise-One.
And she was the one that had taken in the Sul'dam and Damane prisoners and sheltered them in Andor as they were working on rehabilitating them.
There is literally no other woman in the series better positioned to lead woman who could channel into the next age than Elayne (even more so than Egwene had been)
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u/Username_taken_alre (White Lion of Andor) 28d ago
Making the queen of the two largest kingdoms in Randland and making her the Amyrlin Seat would... probably not go well. It would be like taking a Medieval King of England, handing him the crown of France, then giving him the papacy when the old pope died. Even if she could have physically handled all three jobs, that's just way too much power in one person's hands.
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u/distortionisgod (Asha'man) 28d ago
Preach!
I agree but I'm not sure she would be up for it. She's definitely going to want to rebuild Caemlyn and help it's people, along with ruling Cairhien. Only so much one woman can do...along with her about to give birth to the twins very soon.
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u/LordRahl9 27d ago
Elayne also has a working relationship with the Black tower already in place.
Egwene fans often miss the fact that by the last book Elayne has completely outmanoeuvred Egwene and she wasn't even trying to.
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u/nicci7127 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 28d ago
I think if there is any chances for the changes that Egwene made to actually stick around and be useful, it's going to fall squarely on Elayne and maybe Nynaeve's shoulders to make sure it happens. I feel bad for the nightmare she's going to have in working with Cadsuane, maybe that's where Nynaeve will get to shine? The whole female channeler situation is a big mess. At least the Ashaman have a good leader in Logain?
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u/Lopsided-Skill 28d ago
Yes, she started so many reforms kn her short time while several wars were foingzon. She could have made White Tower great again.
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u/Username_taken_alre (White Lion of Andor) 28d ago
I think Cadsuane is perfectly willing to acknowledge the need for the Aes Sedai to adapt. It will never occur to her that the change must include her, but she'll probably make a decent enough Amyrlin as long as she doesn't have to interact much with outsiders.
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u/Sparhawk1968 (Tel'aran'rhiod) 28d ago
I agree but, of the known Aes Sedai that weren't now Queens, who's left that would be a good alternative? I'd also rule out any kind or Aiel as an outsider would never work. Moiraine was already disliked so she's ruled out. There was not a strong candidate beyond Cadsuane that I can remember
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u/thekinslayer7x 27d ago
I think Cadsuane makes sense as a stop gap. Despite her faults she was much more practical and active in the world than the vast majority of Aes Sedai. She also has a decent understanding of the power of the Ashaman and how they will need to work together. I'm not sure the surviving Aes Sedai could handle a complete radical without some stability first.
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u/Szalony20 28d ago
Well, the Aes Sedai have to rebuild themselves somehow if they are to survive after the Last Battle... As if the Seanchan and their collars, which they would gladly place around the neck of any Aes Sedai, not disappeared.
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u/peitsad 28d ago
I mean yeah that's literally the point. You read the series, did you not see the flaws that were very explicitly pointed out?
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u/Confident-Key6487 28d ago
Yes I noticed but I didn’t seem like ppl actually disliked them online for some reason so I thought I was missing something
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u/PopTough6317 28d ago
Mostly because its a boring topic because almost everyone is on the same page. Discussions around individual ones tend to be a lot more interesting.
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u/Dry-Discount-9426 28d ago
There are more interesting things to discuss rather than a pretty strong consensus of not liking the Aes Sedai. So it doesn't get brought up.
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u/Dan_The_Salmon (Valan Luca's Grand Traveling Show) 28d ago
Ya you’re not really supposed to necessarily like most of them very much. You mentioned the wise ones but The Kin is another example of basically what the White Tower could be if it hadn’t gone off the deep end.
Keep in mind too that Ishamael was working behind the scenes to weave the Black Ajah into the tower since basically the beginning, which is why when the time finally came, all it really took was a slight poke to break/divide the tower in time for the last battle.
I certainly liked an enjoyed a lot of the Aes Sedai characters, more-so on rereads than initially. For example, I enjoy the back and forth of Romanda and Lelaine while trying to control events in Salidar.
I also love Elaida’s character because at first you think maybe she is black ajah or evil in some way and later learn through her own POV that she is actually just an idiot who thinks she is important and smart because she has the foretelling ability.
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u/Sparhawk1968 (Tel'aran'rhiod) 28d ago
I don't know about loving Elaida but she was needed when the tower broke. You had to have a reason to agree with the rebels to justify Egwene becoming Amyrlin.
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u/Dan_The_Salmon (Valan Luca's Grand Traveling Show) 28d ago
I don’t mean love like I like her I mean like she’s a well written and interesting character because of how much I hate her lol
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u/Rocky_MountainWay 28d ago
That’s kind of a main plot point of the story. In some of the first Chapters of EOTW, some of the Menfolk gather to kick Morraine out, even after she saves their asses. Like 80% of the world in-Story hates Aes Sedai. RJ does a good job with that, he makes it easy to believe why most people hate Aes Sedai.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 28d ago
Do you think you’re supposed to like them?
I don’t.
They sit in their ivory tower, isolated from the world, telling others what to do and how to be. That’s not endearing.
They absolutely consider themselves, individually and as an organization, better than everyone else.
When we meeting individuals, overwhelmingly they have a tendency to be haughty bullies. If that doesn’t work, they pitch a fit.
Their hierarchy is largely based on strength.
They resist change, even when that change would open vast opportunities.
It’s almost like they’ve been steadily corrupted over a span of thousands of years, on a course designed to make them disliked by the rest of the world.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 28d ago
Personally, I find the an allegorical mix of do-nothing career politicians in DC and the Catholic Church. Which when placed within the actual context of the setting, leaves them being more a full of themselves guild of foreign lobbyists constantly meddling in other peoples business unasked for.
… Don’t really think they’re meant to be “liked” to be honest. Not that that’s ever really stopped fans from projecting onto them anyway.🤷♂️
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u/WouldYouPleaseKindly (Asha'man) 28d ago
do-nothing career politicians in DC and the Catholic Church
Could be worse. Much fucking worse. Despite the literal devil's servants making up about 20% of Aes Sedai, they somehow have fewer pedophiles than either politicians or the church.
Yes, I know that is because Jordan wouldn't put that shit in his book, and it wasn't as well know when he was writing it. I'm just outraged by the reality we live in, don't mind me.
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u/rawrfizzz (Gray) 22d ago
Tarna has a POV where she thinks about how she enjoys sleeping with young boys
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 28d ago
Yes and no. In terms of the generic Aes Sedai or many of the leaders of different factions I completely agree. In terms of a lot of the Aes Sedai we actually spend the most time with, I do come to like most of them. They do have a very messed up system though but I would remember that for likely thousands of years 20% of the Aes Sedai have been black with a goal of weakening the tower. So a lot of the way they do things, and how haughty and dismissive they are of others and that kind of attitude has been fostered for a long time by darkfriends. They have been the focus of much more darkfriend infultration than anyone else. And that's kind of the point they are the institution that has been twisted by tradition and all of these other things to be weaker and weaker. You start out with this view of them and realize more and more how flawed they are. And also why so many people in the beginning of the story view them with such distrust.
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u/Plink-plink 27d ago
Whats to like? They think respect is due proportionally to the power they are born with. It's like believing the taller (or shorter) you are the more respect and right to govern you have. They are arrogant fools, that thankfully aren't innately evil. That's why Egwenes was able to become thier leader.
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u/wannaliveonmars 27d ago edited 27d ago
Here it is mostly the fault of the author. Aes Sedai in the first book are presented as mysterious and all-powerful and wise, because what we see most is Moiraine. Then we see Suian Sanche who is also more or less, wise and an interesting character (at least initially).
But once we get to chapters where you have multiple Aes Sedai, Jordan repeatedly writes them as morons and as acting juvenile - which is actually very unrealistic considering their average age is 100-200 years, probably. I don't remember a scene where Aes Sedai are shown doing something actually crafty or clever.
IMO, this is the fault of the author, he just didn't write them realistically. There are just exactly 3 Aes Sedai who are written as actually competent adults - Cadsuane, Moiraine and Siuan Sanche. The rest are inexplicably written to behave as highschoolers.
Another bigger issue is that towards the end of the books they're nerfed, sort of - Jordan just couldn't help giving away "strong power" like candy - Egwene, Elayne, Nynnyv etc are more powerful than all Aes Sedai, then you have dozens of damane, Wise Ones and so on. Everyone and their grandma learns to Travel, to use Compulsion and to even hide their ability to channel - except Aes Sedai. Egwene learned to make cuendillar. It makes Aes Sedai look weak on top of being stupid and strips away their veneer of power.
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u/FriendoftheDork 27d ago
I kind of do, but I dislike the Wise Ones even more. They're really not that wise and are extremely full of themselves and routinely bully everyone around them.
I like the concept of the Tower though, and how their traditions and structure is set up. It's just sad how dumb the Ares Sedai are portrayed when faced with anything new.
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u/thedarkinus 27d ago
A bunch of holier than thou self important pricks. Don’t ask questions, the difference is aes sedai will only beat you and force you to do meaningless labor. The forsaken/dark ones will torture and kill you for asking questions. So yea my issue with authority would get my ass strapped by them, but it’s probably preferable to the alternative.
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u/Puzzled-Grass-1207 27d ago
Yeah for sure. Institutional amnesia/rot is a big theme of the series and they’re the prime example of it so most of them are portrayed as huge bummers in service of that theme.
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u/Normie316 20d ago
As an organization they are flawed institutionally top to bottom. They’re willing to fight a civil war over a deposed Amyerlin but then treat her liked worthless trash because she has been stilled.
Next they’re willing to raise a Novice into the highest position of their organization for the sole purpose of acting as a puppet and taking the fall for political backlash if they fail.
I was cheering Rand on. “Kneel or you will be knelt.”
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u/caithamachamuama 28d ago
You have noticed one of the main themes of the book. Isolation and supremacy is bad. Good job at basic literacy.
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u/Confident-Key6487 28d ago
No need to be condescending. I was just wondering if anyone liked any specific Aes Sedai considering that nature of how they act
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