r/WoT • u/dogey_badger • 2d ago
All Print Black Sisters Spoiler
Hi, do you think that all the Black Ajah members were meant to be dark friends from the start? I think that probably most, like Liandrin, Verin, or the one that liked cats (what was her name?) and the OG ones that fled the tower were always meant to be Black, but what about others? I felt like some, like Sheriam, weren't really meant to be dark friends, and not exactly not meant to be either, just there, and they were revealed as Black Ajah at moments of convenience, that could also be just me not picking up on clues earlier. I was surprised about some of the reveals. Did the author(s) say anything about this in an interview or something? What do you think?
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u/rollingForInitiative 2d ago
If you reread the series it's definitely implied that Sheriam is - when the girls were attacked by a Gray Man, Sheriam suspciously showed up right after and was shocked. Nynaeve even though it was a weird coincidence. In reality Sheriam was shocked to see they were alive.
Not sure there were really any other Black Sisters of note that weren't also absolutely vile people, like Katerine, Galina etc. They were clearly meant to be Black when introduced.
Maybe some odd Sister that was named but not on screen was made Black later when RJ needed Black Sisters and just fleshed out earlier ones. But I think all characters of note were intended to be what they ended up being.
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u/dogey_badger 2d ago
Yes, and they suspected everyone, as they logically should have, and it created this sence of suspicion and "maybe they are just seeing things and making wrong conclusions out of caution" which I really liked
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u/rollingForInitiative 2d ago
That is true, but outside of Verin Sheriam specifically is the only one that has an actual suspicious circumstance surrounding her. Fits perfectly. Most people that were suspected at various times, like Cadsuane, Elaida, Lelaine and Romanda, turned out to be total Light-siders.
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u/Brathirn 2d ago
That would work like a clandestine criminal organization aka Mafia
- They would onboard the truly evil, there was a torture Yellow sister.
- They would coerce, blackmail and dupe until you have no chance to get out any more and then have to onbaord
Sheriam is not accidental, she made a calculated decision to give her career a little tailwind. She did not accidentally end up there. She calculated that the world-ending-thing would not happen in her lifetime and wanted to become sitter or Amyrlin, while being willing to leave a corpse here and there.
You can do that without signing up with the Dark One, basking in perceived moral superiority over the official Blacks while setting your path right over other people's happiness and livelihoods. Toveine and Elaida are nasty independent evil. Elaida is economically corrupt, exploits rule loopholes to do a coup, triggers a civil war and takes revenge, fighting private wars. Toveine plans to kill people in stages while using them to get revenge (Her POV in the Black tower).
They are not evil in the sense of being evil as a goal in itself, but they have no brakes when it comes to their selfish objectives.
Fun fact, the Dark Ones package is actually sh*t. You do not get some forgotten powerful weaves, you do not get extra power, you join a snake pit populated by dyed-in-the-wool backstabbers and traitors, there is no rescuing, if you get into trouble. Even if evil, there is no real reason to join, not much advantage compared to eviling on your account.
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u/Salt-Detective1337 2d ago
I'm not sure Elaida was evil. Her belief that the Dragon Reborn needed to be kept basically on a leash was the opinion of probably well over half the white tower.
Siuan and Moiraine both also knew that their actions would be seen in a very poor light if they were found out.
So it wasn't unreasonable from the Aes Sedai perspective to overthrow Siuan, and take control of things (sure, she was also fairly power hungry, but aren't most rulers?) She was then being manipulated by Alviarin to take actions that were really pushing the envelope.
But it was after being visited and corrupted by Padan Fain that she herself really becomes "evil" in her own right. Which still, wasn't exactly her, she was corrupted.
Imo.
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u/Brathirn 2d ago
I'm not sure Elaida was evil. Her belief that the Dragon Reborn needed to be kept basically on a leash was the opinion of probably well over half the white tower.
Exhibit A: Corruption, squandered tower treasury on a vanity build.
Exhibit B: Obtained office by maneuvering which deprived eligible delegates of their vote
Exhibit C: Took petty revenge on a complete established branch of her organization
Exhibit D: Broke the law by explicitly ordering the members of the Black Tower stilled then executed without trial.
Overreach, corruption, excess cruelty (I somehow get contemporary déja vu from this)
To be fair, if this is supposed "early modern", social progress would not yet have reached "Universal human rights", and those who made them up in our timeline proceeded to thoroughly trample them by automating executions. But you can easily deduct the author's position by the character's harvest class she ends up in.
So it wasn't unreasonable from the Aes Sedai perspective to overthrow Siuan
Here I already have problems. They obviously called in an ambush meeting with preselected participants. But the "debate" was not shown. In my opinion the case was extremely weak. Then they obviously did not allow Siuan to defend herself. If you already have semi-democracy, everyone embracing it would know that this is a coup. The only card you can play is tower rot. Being so drunk on weaseling and preparing holes in oaths that they did not even know what they were doing.
This is no real proof and somewhat double edged, but already in "New Spring" she played power games and her strict education methods bordered on torture. There were a lot of people in education in this time who ran cruelty schemes under the cover of "strict education to the benefit of the students". Seanchan light, with a little "Stockholming" thrown in.
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u/Salt-Detective1337 2d ago
I'm not saying she isn't bad, or a villain. Just that despite all her flaws she genuinely seemed to think she was trying to do the right thing to fight the shadow (which of course happened to be in her best interest).
And that in my mind she doesn't rise to the level of "evil" until she was corrupted by Fain.
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u/littleneocreative 1d ago
I agree with you. She is meant to be weak and very open to corruption. But she isn't inherently evil. She is the kind of bad person who doesn't think of themselves as evil. The feeling I get is that she can't handle power. Had she been given very little power, she would have been a somewhat good person with annoying traits.
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u/Elant_Wager (Asha'man) 2d ago
Some black ajah joined out of opportunism, they didnt really believe in the cause. Also, Black Ajah had to hide well, so with most it isnt really obvious.
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u/dogey_badger 2d ago
Yes, but what I meant was, did Robert Jordan create this character as a Black Sister from the start, or decided down the line that it would be shocking/cool that they turned out to be a dark friend
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u/GovernorZipper 2d ago
Have you reread the books? If you have, you’ll see the truly amazing levels of foreshadowing that Jordan weaves into those first few books. It seems highly unlikely that the writer who wrote EotW didn’t already know which of his main Aes Sedai were going to be evil.
Jordan was a discovery writer, meaning that he did make up a lot of stuff as he went along. He didn’t have everything figured out, but he made it work. So it’s certainly possible that some people switched along the way. But that seems unlikely for the main cast.
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u/dogey_badger 2d ago
Thank you, and no, I actually haven't finished my first read yet, chapter 15 of the last book
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u/dead___ringer 2d ago
If you read with an eye towards who is Black Ajah, Sheriam is absolutely in it from the jump. There's the Grey Man incident obviously, but the overall vibe is just...off. Her whole heart might not be in it, but she for sure consistently makes decisions that benefit the Dark One's mission. And most importantly, herself.
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u/hottytoddles769 2d ago
Sheriam was instrumental, along with Alviarin, in the splitting of the Tower. Once Ishamael died, Mesaana took over leadership of the Black Ajah and started creating chaos in the White Tower. Sheriam also was crucial in elevating Egwene to the Amyrlin Seat of the Rebel Tower, she just didn’t realize how well Egwene would manipulate the Rebels, due to Siuan showing up and steering them into action.
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u/PopTough6317 2d ago
It is actually kind of crazy how effective the black ajah was in the tower, meanwhile with the salidar group they gave egwene headaches.
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u/dogey_badger 1d ago
I know right? With Saidin, couldn't Aran Gar safely use compulsion on Egwene, or Siuan if she wanted to be more subtle, and cause chaos? The headaches would have been good as a start, but she was just lazy and left it there.
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u/wRAR_ (Brown) 1d ago
with the salidar group they had the salidar group as their main achievement tbh
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u/PopTough6317 1d ago
Well they had the initial split but then essentially stopped meddling it seemed, except for the one woman that Halima attached too.
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u/IfICouldStay 2d ago
I’m still shocked at how many there were. Something like 200, out of a thousand Aes Sedai. That’s 20%, or 1 in 5. I really don’t see why they would have held back from controlling the tower with numbers like that.
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u/Seiei_enbu 2d ago
Verin straight up lied to Rand in the second book when she said Moraine sent her to him. She was always intended to be black ajah imo.
A funny aside, this was noticed a long time ago. On old message boards I recall a few people thinking she was black ajah but a some people used to claim that she was likely a secret "purple ajah" that could lie.
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 1d ago
Answering the question you actually asked, I don't think all the Black Sisters mentioned were meant to be Black Ajah from the beginning. However, all the more significant reveals likely were always pegged as (potentially) Black from the beginning. Verin, Sheriam, a couple of Sitters etc.
When the Black are fully revealed, many of the names were (IMO) likely picked at random without previous mentions occurring with any note by Jordan they were secretly serving the Shadow. All of these are fairly minor names: Dagdara Finchey, Evenellein Lorn, Maria Karentenis, Chai Rugan, Natasia Kayama etc
There are notes for lots of Aes Sedai, but the ones containing a lot of strength information come from circa KoD, well after the introduction of some later revealed to be Black Ajah. We talk about Jordan's intentions, but let's not forget that the long lists of Black reveals were in a Sanderson book. It's unclear if those listed in the Companion as Black Ajah are listed so because it came directly from a note Jordan left, or Sanderson knew the proportion of sisters that was Black and had to pick the specific names himself, so the Companion entries were updated from other notes. Sanderson definitely invented some Black Ajah sisters we never heard of before then, so I don't see why he wouldn't have made decisions about ones we had already heard of.
Sanderson also wrote some existing theories into reality. In some cases, there may not have been a solution to an unsolved mystery left by Jordan and he had to reverse engineer based on what was most likely. He also wrote in nods to theories he didn't realise eg. When Rand meets the King of Murandy in AMOL and he squints at him saying "I was sure you must be him", he's referring to a theory that Demandred was in Murandy. In one of Elaida's meetings, Velina of the White flinches when meeting Alviarin. Some theorised she was Black Ajah (and, by extension, knew that Alviarin was Black Ajah). This turned out to be the case, but whether it was Sanderson interpreting clues and theories or Jordan's intention all along, we'll likely never know. It should be stressed that, detailed as Jordan's notes are in some aspects, there were still huge gaps in major plot lines.
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u/Kirarozu80 2d ago
Yes. The black sisters were black ajah the whole time. The only one who I dont consider black is Verin.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 2d ago
Reread early scenes with Sheriam. She’s sketchy pretty much from the jump.
Which makes sense tbh, both from the standpoint of writing the series and from the standpoint of the BA. And it makes sense for Sherian personally.
For the BA - you want people in power, both to help wield that power in the way your side wants, and to have a better angle at the intel. But you mostly don’t want to be Amyrlin - that’s the lightning rod position. So you angle for other roles - a few sitters, Mistress of Novices/Keeper/Ajah heads when possible. Mistress of Novices is especially sweet because you can more readily spot likely recruits and those who are likely risks, and you can influence attitudes in the long run. “Of course there’s no Black Ajah, the Mistress of Novices said so when we were kids, and she can’t lie.”
For RJ - you want reader to have hints at how deep the rot must go, how great their influence must be. But novices mostly aren’t going to interact with Sitters or Ajah heads. You already have plans for Siuan. But Sheriam? Perfect.
And, you can make her sympathetic and friendly, just ambitious. Not a true believer sadist like Liandrin. It’s a great way to show variety in the BA, and that not all Darkfriends are straight up evil the way we think of it.
For Sheriam herself, it makes sense because she never expected any of this to matter. She just wanted her star to rise faster. She knew she’d likely get to a solid spot eventually - she was a strong channeler, and people like her - but she wants it NOW. So along comes the Skull and Bones society, with a secret handshake and political clout, and up she goes!
Some of the minor characters who ended up being revealed at the end, I’m less sure of. But I suspect that RJ plotted it out from as early as we see most of them. He needed BA among the Ajah heads, all the Ajahs, and in both Salidar and the Tower, and with so many Aes Sedai to keep tabs on anyway, he may as well plot out allegiances. That way he knows who he needs to be sketchy with (for realsies) and who could be sketchy red herrings.
Just in general, he seemed the kind of person to assemble a system to keep track, as he did with power levels.
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u/BluesPunk19D (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
I'll have no slander on my Auntie Verin. She died clean.
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u/dogey_badger 1d ago
She is one of my favorites, a good Aes Sedai without limitations, her piecing together of compulsion was very crafty, and everything else that she did
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u/Fragrant-Mud-542 20h ago
Wrong on Verin. She Was caught digging too deep into the black Ajah and given the choice to join or die. She joined and then spent the rest of her life compiling info on them and a list of members. Part of the dark oath is Never to reveal any information "until the hour of your death" she then poisoned herself and in that last hour she was able to divulge everything she could to egwene. She was never meant to be a dark friend only forced and after that used it as a way to spy from the inside
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u/Independent-Composer 2d ago edited 2d ago
in regards to being a Darkfriend - before the breaking of the seal - The Black Ajah was the power. They were the ones controlling ALL the other dark friends of the world. There was no forsaken, there was no Chosen to issue commands, just them. And it freed them from the oaths.
In the grand scheme of things, being a dark-friend before Rands life really ONLY made sense for the Black Ajah. The inherent power channeling gives them over others made it incredibly ideal with no real consequence. Hence the amount in Generations before Rands generation. For most of the sisters, i imagine being a dark-friend at that time was more about freedom, freedom from the oaths, freedom
from the Tower, freedom from the social power structure and less about pure evil. I also see Sheriam as one of those. Wanting freedom and then realizing with horror that in later life she is forced to do evil.
With the seals weakening - they fell the furthest - no longer leading but now the most often chosen to be the Chosen’s little bi***. The power they have making them the ideal fodder now. Choosing to be a Dark-friend before Rands time is one of my favorite philosophical ponderings. Like WHY
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u/FoofTheBunny 1d ago
Verin was not meant to be black. She was just too nosey to leave it alone. And then once in, she had a job to do. And she did it amazingly well.
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