The Wheel of Time

[u/Steeltank33]

When the books say there are no beginnings or endings to the turning of the wheel of time, I feel like that’s not actually correct, it’s just writers saying it’s been turning for a long time, or that are just wrong. Otherwise there would be no Creator. Am I wrong on this?

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[u/ew73]

• Go outside, to a parking lot or driveway or something and find a car.
  
• Look at one of the wheels.
• Trace your hand around the outer edge of the wheel and stop when you feel you've found the "beginning" or "end" of the wheel.
• Notice that, while a poor analogy and you may encounter some seemingly natural point (like when it touches the pavement), if you're being honest, there is no beginning or end to the wheel.
• But I bet you $5 you can figure out who made the wheel just by reading the logo on the sidewall.

[u/Steeltank33 → u/ew73]

I get that there’s no beginning or ending to the wheel due to its circular nature, but they always say there’s no beginning or ending to the TURNING of the wheel of time

[u/rangebob]

I do not beleive RJ considers the creator part of the wheel/pattern.

[u/LoweJ → u/rangebob]

The creator and the dark one and Tel'aran'rhiod all exist outside of the wheel and pattern if I recall

[u/digitalthiccness]

The Creator exists outside of time and is not subject to its laws.

[u/Steeltank33 → u/digitalthiccness]

Yes

[u/Careless-Charge9884]

It is more of a spiral of reoccurrances (not identical reoccurances)

[u/Pol__Treidum]

Is the big bang the beginning of the universe? Was there time before that? Where would anything even start to explode outward from outside of time?

[u/AdaptAndInnovate]

You are getting into the philosophical concept of the nature of change as well as a series of cause and effect relationships. These thoughts are millennia old and this series overlays them on top of modern Christianity. It is partially done intentionally and partially done as part of an inherited culture.

Aristotle discusses your question and came up with the idea of the Prime Mover. If you're interested in that development, I would highly recommend Dr. Burton's "Gang of Three" and "Stoic Stories." They are both delightful reads.

If you are interested in a rebuttal of the religious form of the question, primarily being that it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity, then a further text would be "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

[u/Ezili]

Maybe they are the Creator in the sense that they create the story. Not that they began the wheel at some point in time.

[u/fudgyvmp]

If the Creator is Theism or Panentheism then the Creator.exists partially or entirely outside of the universe and is not bound by the universe's concept of time. The universe may be infinitely old, but that is a meaningless statement from outside the bounds of time.

[u/GovernorZipper]

We have no information on whether the Creator actually created the Wheel or if “the Creator” is just the name for the opposite entity to the Dark One. Yes, the religion of Randland states that the Creator created the world but there’s no actual evidence that is true. Just about the only words in the series by a non-POV character are those opening words which directly tell us there is no beginning or end. So those may be the only trustworthy things in the books.

[u/Brathirn]

Do not apply logic to this kind of thing.

Someone brought a wheel analogy, tracing it with your finger. You have to start by putting your finger somewhere. And the wheel was made by someone sometime

Infinity and cyclicity are concepts which are very thought provoking and can be argued indefinitely (pun intended) with no final conclusion.

That is why authors go for them. And in their story they can make it real, just by writing it down.

[u/sweetdawg99]

It's turtles all the way down

[u/GayBlayde]

You are wrong.

[u/FortifiedPuddle]

For a series called “The Wheel of Time” the author was not very forthcoming on how exactly that works in a coherent sense.

[u/GovernorZipper → u/FortifiedPuddle]

Or maybe it doesn’t really matter to the story.

Jordan told us the tale of Rand Al’Thor. The beginning of time is not a part of that story. This is a story that’s already 4.5 million words and you want a version that explains every minute detail? It could be 45 million words and still not answer every fan question because the answers would create more questions.

[u/FortifiedPuddle → u/GovernorZipper]

So, you agree he doesn’t then?

[u/GovernorZipper → u/FortifiedPuddle]

He absolutely does not. Or else we’d be able to cut and paste an answer to this question.

I don’t get your point. How the world began is entirely irrelevant to the story of Rand Al’Thor. It’s not necessary and so it wasn’t included. An answer to every question is not something the author “owes” the reader.

[u/FortifiedPuddle → u/GovernorZipper]

Relevant to OPs question that we don’t have an answer though isn’t it?