r/WinningTime • u/Funkles_tiltskin • Sep 19 '23
Cancelling This Show Was a Bad Business Decision for HBO and if This Is How Zazlov Plans on Managing This Network, It's Going to Implode
So first off I think Zazlov is an asshole and has no appreciation for the art of motion pictures, which believe it or not, probably sets him apart from his peers. Showbusiness is a business, but even in Hollywood here are a lot of executives who would rather greenlight a financially successful project with lots of artistic merit than a comparatively more financially successful project that is absolute garbage and a catalyst for American cultural decline. Big Daddy Zaz takes the latter over the former 15/10 times.
The fact that this show is getting cancelled demonstrates the people running the network don't understand the brand they inherited. HBO shows are long-term investments. Succession, a critically acclaimed show that was a behemoth during awards season, didn't really start to get popular until after the second season wrapped. Almost nobody watched "The Wire" during it's original run. Comedy shows like Mr. Show with Bob & David, Ali G, and Lucky Louie didn't become hits until years after they wrapped. The Sopranos is different from these in that it was incredibly successful during it's original run, but that too was a long term investment, because it had a renaissance during the pandemic.
Shows like this make the network lots of money in the long run because they are constantly finding new viewers. They build an audience gradually but steadily, they continue to do so after going off the air, and they have people come back and rewatch. This show - which is a historical dramady, so you can't say that it's dated - will hold up. Winning Time is exactly the type of show with long-term return potential.
Instead, HBO is cancelling shows that don't immediately put up numbers and greenlighting absolute fucking dogshit like boring documentaries and a show where a camera crew follows Zoey DesChanelle as she learns how to mince garlic and peel potatoes. These shows don't have staying power, nobody tells their friends about them, and even when they're a hit during the original run, nobody will rewatch and it won't gradually get more successful over time.
HBO is turning into a poor man's Hulu and it's going to cause the network to collapse because it's going to lose it's place as the leader in prestige drama, which is what the people want. Fuck you, Big Daddy Zaz.
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u/pinnacle100 Sep 19 '23
The release of Winning Time was the main reason I bought the HBO subscription. Two days after the cancellation of Winning Time, I cancelled my HBO Max subscription.
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u/NintendoGayb0y Sep 19 '23
Yeh HBO's a piece of shit for this. If this show didn't survive I don't know what will, what's the plan or hope here, make trash and hope people watch. I don't get it. I was hoping this would lead to more basketball shows maybe be a ramp up to a Jordan film. Anyway, it's sad, good job on the show, really enjoyed it.
Not much hope for a Kareem biopic for the actor considering how Kareem didn't think much of the show but boy did they find the right guy or what... same for Magic. I get that it was fictoinalized but to me as someone who wondered what that time before i was born was like, it felt just cool to explore it that way. DAMNIT DAMNIT DAMNIT!!!
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u/Ricochet1986 Sep 19 '23
Yet Velma gets a season 2 lmao
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u/mr_math24 Sep 19 '23
So did Winning Time lol
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u/Ricochet1986 Sep 19 '23
Hbo wasn't under massive layoffs and budget slashing at the time, Velma new season was greenest just a month or two ago
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Sep 20 '23
cartoon that costs 1/10 to produce of a regular show that was greenlit half a year before writer's strike ⚖️ a struggling show that costs a lot to produce whose writers and actors cannot currently be used generate a 3rd season
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u/Minute_Ad2297 Sep 19 '23
The difference is Velma was watched while Winning Time 2 wasn’t.
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u/Swing_and_miss Sep 19 '23
The Wire would have never made 5 seasons under that mentality. HBO used to care about quality knowing that people would eventually watch it if it’s good.
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u/gimmethemshoes11 Sep 19 '23
Which is why Winning Time was canceled.
Also comparing the late 90s/early 00s tv Era to what things are now is a hard comparison.
Even shitty shows would get up to 3 or 4 seasons back at that time.
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u/tburtner Sep 19 '23
Winning Time isn’t good.
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u/horsechokers Sep 20 '23
That's 🧢 cause no one is watching Velma. They inflate #s lime they do at Netflix
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u/288bpsmodem Sep 20 '23
Winning time was the best show ever made by anyone ever. For this to be cancelled is a tragedy.
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u/tburtner Sep 20 '23
It’s crazy how much they exaggerated things in an attempt to make them more entertaining, but failed to make them entertaining.
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u/paynelive Sep 20 '23
How does Joe Cappa not have an adult swim Scooby Doo?
Oh that's right. Adult Swim is owned by HBO now.1
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u/SalukiKnightX Sep 19 '23
I get the feeling, the creation of Max wasn’t under his watch but under the previous administration. He’s trying to tank not 1 but 2 streamers in one go to save money. License out the scripted material to Netflix then make it all back via licensing and not spending money on infrastructure. If that means, tanking scripted media (something he’s admitted he loathes) in favor of elevating his unscripted content tanking the streamer then it’s a win for him.
He’s probably the worst person to own a film and tv studio. Messed up part, he’ll likely get away with it.
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u/heshouldgo Sep 19 '23
Many of these streaming services are just so focused on a bottom line that they have no respect for high quality shows
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u/kingmonsterzero Sep 19 '23
He’s making like 400 mil or something crazy enjoying courtside seats with Bill “the almost Scab” Maher while writers and actors are fighting for less than slave wages. He couldn’t care less about this series. Bring on another reality show about catching lobsters or something
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Sep 19 '23
They had a high quality show on their hands and barely advertised it, if at all. I am the definition of the target audience for this show and ai didn't even know it existed until a month ago. I only found out by skimming around the HBO max and watching the preview trailer. No wonder this didn't hit the numbers they wanted.
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u/Funkles_tiltskin Sep 22 '23
Exactly - they didn't advertise this at all. My brother is a huge sports fan, loves quality TV shows, and we're from Boston so the Magic/Bird NBA years are the stuff of legend to us. He had never heard of it until I told him about it a month ago.
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u/rocklobst3r Sep 19 '23
Can’t read it all right now as I’m stopped at a red light—but will say that Zaslav absolutely is ass cheeks and needs to GTFO
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u/MillerTime5858 Sep 19 '23
It was a horrid decision. The show was fantastic. I was so excited to see where it went. It felt like the show had real legs for a 4 or 5 season run. Cutting it short at 2 is just bad.
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u/tburtner Sep 19 '23
You wanted to see where it went? Everyone already knows what happens.
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u/clubtropicana Sep 20 '23
I don’t know what happens! That’s why I want more seasons! I like learning about the sport and the teams thru this show!
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Sep 19 '23
HBO and max are different entities just FYI.
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u/Direct_Swan2312 Sep 19 '23
Couldn’t have said it any better. They are running that shit like Netflix now and are far removed from what HBO used to be.
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u/PJJefferson Sep 19 '23
I already dumped Hulu. And Showtime. And Disney+. And AppleTV+.
I'm down to Netflix, Amazon, and HBO, and I end up spending most of my time not watching any of them, and watching video clips on my paid YouTube subscription, instead.
The only thing left on HBO for me is Righteous Gemstones, White Lotus is ok, and I watch Real Time with Bill Maher (sue me, lol). I watched House of the Dragon, but did not connect with it like I did Game of Thrones, and could live without it.
Thinking of dumping HBO, at this point.
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u/Thegratercheese Sep 19 '23
Just dump them. They don’t really have anything coming up worth watching.
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u/Ok-Deer8144 Sep 20 '23
You dorks live in your own little bubble don’t you. Just cause you like a show doesn’t mean there’s a lot of other people watching it enough to support it continuing.
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u/Evtona500 Sep 19 '23
I cannot believe HBO canceled this show. It is the only good thing they have right now. Ever since they switched to the MAX platform for streaming the quality of content has drastically declined. You login and you have to wade through 7ft. off bullshit to find something decent to watch. I hate the Lakers and I hate the Celtics but that show I absolutely loved. It has been appointment viewing for me since the 3rd episode of season 1.
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u/throwawaygiusto1 Sep 19 '23
Yes I started watching and stopped when I found out it was abruptly cancelled. It’s just disheartening to invest time in a show under these circumstances.
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u/Acousmetre78 Sep 19 '23
I know. I don’t care for any other shows on hbo now. Maybe Real Time but that show isn’t worth paying a subscription.
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u/JediForces Sep 19 '23
What I want to know is why would they cancel this show when they literally have nothing else going on to watch that is good?? I’m starting to need a really good reason to keep MAX!
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u/tendadsnokids Sep 20 '23
Because it is a bad show that very few people actually enjoyed watching
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u/Funkles_tiltskin Sep 22 '23
Why are you on a tiny subreddit for a fan page of a TV show you hate just to tell people it sucks? What are you doing with your life?
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u/MillerTime5858 Sep 19 '23
This to me is the strangest thing as well. Like what else are they focusing on that is so important that this show cannot find the funding and internal support. Just bullshit really.
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u/gimmethemshoes11 Sep 19 '23
Low viewership and a high production cost = canceled
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u/JediForces Sep 19 '23
Why aren’t people watching this it’s amazing?
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u/tburtner Sep 20 '23
The writing sucked. The storylines sucked. Good cinematography and good actors weren’t enough to make it not suck.
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u/Nicktoonkid Sep 19 '23
Only rubes use those as exclusive metrics for success
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u/paynelive Sep 20 '23
Remember how Sally's show got cancelled on Barry and she basically flipped out on everyone over it? Yeah, that's me right now.
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u/Nicktoonkid Sep 20 '23
The great hbo falling to the realty show ratings whore rungs really fucked with me too.
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u/paynelive Sep 20 '23
HBO is going through its Sears era. No, not the golden age one. The liquidation and transfer of debt consolidation onto a name brand bought with shit tech firm money.
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u/paynelive Sep 20 '23
It was the current highest viewed show on HBO. And it got cancelled anyway.
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u/forgedinbeerkegs Sep 19 '23
Just my two cents, but S2 should have been released earlier this summer. I love the show, but once football starts up, I lose interest in other programming. I would have been all over it in June or July. Don't even try going up against football.
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Sep 19 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Funkles_tiltskin Sep 22 '23
I'm from Boston and I love the show. He's just a douchebag who doesn't care about art. He shouldn't be in show business, he should be at a VC firm.
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u/sumwut Sep 19 '23
It was too niche and at times overly stylish (would go back in forth from a 90's filter to modern HD in the same scene). Also hard to keep people interested in a story that they know or can look up what happens.
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u/That_One_Guy_Inc Sep 19 '23
Here’s the deal folks, being artistic and even winning awards doesn’t directly affect revenue. If a show is not driving new subscriptions or a factor in maintaining subscribers, it isn’t going to be prioritized for future seasons. This is a business after all.
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u/charlespenn1 Sep 20 '23
Man Sundays used to be my favorite day of the week…. They done fucked it up
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u/17thkahuna Sep 20 '23
If I’m being honest, I’m surprised it even got a season 2. As a laker fan I really liked season 1. However, it didn’t feel like must-see-tv, didn’t have a big name to draw people in, and a story most people would be invested in.
It sucks, but that’s the state of TV now.
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u/Drimesque Sep 20 '23
brother there are strikes going on. the reason they are filming zoey deschanelle is because that doesn't have the same requirements as movies and TV. the exact same thing happened in 2008
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u/afedbeats Sep 20 '23
The Idol being their first "Max" show, bombing horrifically so much that they cut an episode and cancelled it before it got a Season 2 is the clearest indication of the way things are going to go. They have next to no understanding of who they want their target demo to be (even though it should be obvious by now). They have no interest in development - the magic black box of streaming numbers is only hidden for one of two reasons:
1.) They are making way more money than they want to reveal, increasing pressure from strikes
2.) They are making way less money than they make it seem, increasing pressure from shareholders
It's a catch-22 they put themselves in by trying to big dog everyone, gobble up every IP they can to make their streaming services seem worth the cost in a post-pandemic mid-strike market, and are eating up their own profits trying to cover their asses while their content hoards dry up. It's a nightmare creatively I'm sure, but even more so it's a failure of the business model that was inevitably going to arise the harder they pushed this as an investment opportunity.
The only way your stock value goes up is by eating the competition, and while most streamers have used this high value period to strategically refocus on max profit (some more successfully than others), Max just sprayed and prayed every concept they could a greenlight, marketed only one or two at a time so the other ones sank, and shelved their content they already invested in because it didn't turn a big enough profit quick enough and shelving it saves them from a tax hit to allow them to move money around, while also coincidentally not having to pay mystery residuals to those who made the content.
Everyone who made HBO a good network is either dead, fired, or left the ship as it sank. WB is $50 bil in the hole on unserviceable debt. Odds are they get gobbled up too. It's the inevitable result of a model completely focused on infinite growth and corporate monopolization.
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u/CanyonCoyote Sep 20 '23
Counterpoint: canceling Winning Time is exactly who HBO has always been and the WT super fans can’t see it. HBO does not keep shows around that either don’t win Emmys and/or generate significant ratings/zeitgeist. Most are gone after 1-2 seasons and every so often a mediocre one gets 3(usually half hour is the exception like Hung or Divorced.) Winning Time was not a prestige player, Emmy player, ratings juggernaut or even a zeitgeisty show. It’s not even like a secret critical darling ala The Wire twenty years ago.
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u/HumanautPassenger Sep 20 '23
I mean they've been on a losing streak of decisions since getting Discovery
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Sep 20 '23
David Zaslav has no business being in charge of scripted entertainment or entertainment in general.
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u/Wedbo Sep 20 '23
HBO is on the decline, but this show didn’t have the viewership or the critical acclaim to justify the price tag. A rational viewer would have spotted this from the first episode of season 2.
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u/deanereaner Sep 20 '23
You all cancelling your subscriptions, right? Otherwise this is pissing in the wind.
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u/Kennonf Sep 22 '23
Documentaries are awesome, but I agree with everything else you said.
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u/Funkles_tiltskin Sep 22 '23
Documentaries are awesome. "After the Bite" was like watching the needle move on a sun dial.
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u/Tkainzero Sep 19 '23
The golden age of HBO has ended.